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desertwanderer81
Mar 2, 2009, 8:11 PM
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acorneau wrote: cracklover wrote: He didn't know that their low stretch TR ropes were different from the standard dynamic UIAA rated ropes. Glad I didn't fall at all that day. Don't know about your friend's gym, but we use the Blue Water DynaGym ropes which are fully UIAA and CE approved, with an impact force rating of 8.5kN. I usually use my own rope when leading, but have used the gym rope in the past with no problems. It's just a little harder fall/catch. Those ropes met those standards when they were brand new.....but most gym ropes have been used....a lot....and have very very little stretch left in them after that much abuse. I'd guess their stretch is actually similiar to a static rope, heh. I would never lead on one. I always use my own rope when leading in a gym.
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desertwanderer81
Mar 2, 2009, 8:19 PM
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caliclimbergrl wrote: macblaze wrote: caliclimbergrl wrote: It does make for a funny story though. Does anyone actually use the standard climbing signals in the gym or doing single pitch trad climbs anytime except when they're doing a belay check in a gym? I usually just use the standard, "ready?" "Yup." And then "take" when I get to the top. All the other stuff is so pointless unless you're doing multi-pitch or belaying from the top. And not that it's any skin off your nose, but I wouldn't climb with you. Not in a gym, not at a crag, not with a rope, not with a pad... Why? Because I don't go through: "On belay" "Belay on" "Climbing" "Climb on" "Take" "Gottcha" "Ready to lower" "Lowering" every single time I do a TR in the gym? You're right, it's no skin off my back. I have plenty of partners and you're a little too far away anyway. But I am surprised you wouldn't climb with me for that reason. I think I'm pretty safe. To each his/her own. The guy responding to you was most likely some gym rat/newbie. I always communicate with my partner before starting a pitch but it's usually along the lines of "all good to go?" and the response of "yup, see you on the top" When following often you can't see/hear the person above you. In that case you workout a series of tugs to indicate that the person is ready to belay you. If you wait for the "belay on" you're going to be there for a long long time :p
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desertwanderer81
Mar 2, 2009, 8:26 PM
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maculated wrote: Every time I go to a gym and they make me take the belay test, I get nervous. Been climbing for almost ten years now and I am still always worried I won't know what their "three things" they're looking for are. Got a new one this weekend. ATC all set up, ready for the belay test. Gal asks me, "What do you do with that end?" as she points to the belay end with the coil on the ground. "Uh, hold it?" She looks at me like I'm joking. I look back at her, "Don't take my hand off it?" Still looks at me. "Uncle?" "You tie a backup knot in the end of it." Ahhhh, gyms. One thing that pisses me off beyond all belief is when some gym rat tries to critique my belaying. I've been told not to belay sitting down. I've been told that you absolutely have to watch your climber EVERY MINUTE. I've also had them dislike the particular style that I was using with my hands to belay. They act like climbing is some cookie cutter super certified sport. It's not. There are often a dozen safe ways to do the same thing. The other thing that always gets me is that people think they're all of a sudden safe because they've taken a course in climbing.....
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acorneau
Mar 2, 2009, 9:32 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: One thing that pisses me off beyond all belief is when some gym rat tries to critique my belaying. .... They act like climbing is some cookie cutter super certified sport. Assuming that when you say "they" you are speaking about the gym employees, "they" are simply following the rules established by the gym's management (and insurance company). If you are a guest in someone's house, you follow their rules. You may not be used to them, or even like them, but you should respect and follow them. Edit to add: When you first went to the gym you most-likely signed a waiver, which almost always says something along the lines of, "I agree to follow the rules of the gym".
(This post was edited by acorneau on Mar 2, 2009, 9:36 PM)
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desertwanderer81
Mar 2, 2009, 9:45 PM
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acorneau wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: One thing that pisses me off beyond all belief is when some gym rat tries to critique my belaying. .... They act like climbing is some cookie cutter super certified sport. Assuming that when you say "they" you are speaking about the gym employees, "they" are simply following the rules established by the gym's management (and insurance company). If you are a guest in someone's house, you follow their rules. You may not be used to them, or even like them, but you should respect and follow them. Edit to add: When you first went to the gym you most-likely signed a waiver, which almost always says something along the lines of, "I agree to follow the rules of the gym". Not all gyms have incredibly clueless staffs. Some actually know what climbing is! This is purely a matter of ignorance on the part of gym staff that is not well educated.
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macblaze
Mar 3, 2009, 3:16 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: caliclimbergrl wrote: macblaze wrote: caliclimbergrl wrote: It does make for a funny story though. Does anyone actually use the standard climbing signals in the gym or doing single pitch trad climbs anytime except when they're doing a belay check in a gym? I usually just use the standard, "ready?" "Yup." And then "take" when I get to the top. All the other stuff is so pointless unless you're doing multi-pitch or belaying from the top. And not that it's any skin off your nose, but I wouldn't climb with you. Not in a gym, not at a crag, not with a rope, not with a pad... Why? Because I don't go through: "On belay" "Belay on" "Climbing" "Climb on" "Take" "Gottcha" "Ready to lower" "Lowering" every single time I do a TR in the gym? You're right, it's no skin off my back. I have plenty of partners and you're a little too far away anyway. But I am surprised you wouldn't climb with me for that reason. I think I'm pretty safe. To each his/her own. The guy responding to you was most likely some gym rat/newbie. I always communicate with my partner before starting a pitch but it's usually along the lines of "all good to go?" and the response of "yup, see you on the top" When following often you can't see/hear the person above you. In that case you workout a series of tugs to indicate that the person is ready to belay you. If you wait for the "belay on" you're going to be there for a long long time :p Point 1: the thread is about gym climbing Point 2: Climbing in the gym is the major place to actually go through all the rigmarole because half the time your belayer is trying to chat up blonde with more cleavage than brains Point 3: the verbals are, to me, just a signal that everyone has made their checks and are now in the game. Point 4: Caliclimbergirl makes the point that "the other stuff is ... pointless unless you 're doing multipitch", while you, seeming to agree with her overall, are on the opposite side of that argument... And finally... Point 5: I guess us "gym rats" should just stfu until we can lead 5.9 ...
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desertwanderer81
Mar 3, 2009, 4:11 AM
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macblaze wrote: Point 1: the thread is about gym climbing Point 2: Climbing in the gym is the major place to actually go through all the rigmarole because half the time your belayer is trying to chat up blonde with more cleavage than brains Point 3: the verbals are, to me, just a signal that everyone has made their checks and are now in the game. Point 4: Caliclimbergirl makes the point that "the other stuff is ... pointless unless you 're doing multipitch", while you, seeming to agree with her overall, are on the opposite side of that argument... And finally... Point 5: I guess us "gym rats" should just stfu until we can lead 5.9 ... You flamed someone who has a lot more experience than you for absolutely no reason. I mean it was done in typical RC.com style, but at least most of those people at least understand what they're talking about. 1) You made the statement that you wouldn't climb with her ever despite the fact that she advocates communication....just not cookie cutter communication. 2) You still communicate with your belayer no matter what wherever you are, again just because someone doesn't use some prescribed cookie cutter words, doesn't mean they're not safe. 3) She, nor anyone else, is advocating not using verbal communication, well.....except when you can't hear your partner because that's the way the accustics of the rocks work. 4) I did not see her write anything about it being useless unless you're doing multipitch....in fact, I saw her write exactly what I wrote in that sometimes you can't hear your partner because of the way the rock is...... Who ever said anything about your physical climbing ability? I haven't nor will I ever make a statement like that. There is however experience. There is understanding what you're doing. There is being safe and judgment. Anyhow, the point being is that you made a stupid statement. It was immature and pedantic.
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macblaze
Mar 3, 2009, 5:03 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: macblaze wrote: Point 1: the thread is about gym climbing Point 2: Climbing in the gym is the major place to actually go through all the rigmarole because half the time your belayer is trying to chat up blonde with more cleavage than brains Point 3: the verbals are, to me, just a signal that everyone has made their checks and are now in the game. Point 4: Caliclimbergirl makes the point that "the other stuff is ... pointless unless you 're doing multipitch", while you, seeming to agree with her overall, are on the opposite side of that argument... And finally... Point 5: I guess us "gym rats" should just stfu until we can lead 5.9 ... You flamed someone who has a lot more experience than you for absolutely no reason. I mean it was done in typical RC.com style, but at least most of those people at least understand what they're talking about. 1) You made the statement that you wouldn't climb with her ever despite the fact that she advocates communication....just not cookie cutter communication. 2) You still communicate with your belayer no matter what wherever you are, again just because someone doesn't use some prescribed cookie cutter words, doesn't mean they're not safe. 3) She, nor anyone else, is advocating not using verbal communication, well.....except when you can't hear your partner because that's the way the accustics of the rocks work. 4) I did not see her write anything about it being useless unless you're doing multipitch....in fact, I saw her write exactly what I wrote in that sometimes you can't hear your partner because of the way the rock is...... Who ever said anything about your physical climbing ability? I haven't nor will I ever make a statement like that. There is however experience. There is understanding what you're doing. There is being safe and judgment. Anyhow, the point being is that you made a stupid statement. It was immature and pedantic. This ought to be fun... Flamed? OMFG, if that's a flame to you then you are one sensitive puppy. She and I, if you read the thread, were having quite a civil conversation. I have a thing about rote. It's my thing and I own it; I totally respect her opinion to climb as she wants. At the point I made my Suessian comment, I was just responding with the fact that I do indeed say all the words in a gym and would require it of anyone I climbed with. Who said anyone wasn't safe? I just said I like cookie cutters. Then again, in some of the gyms I've been in , maybe I should be questioning people's concern with safety...
caliclimbergrl wrote: ...All the other stuff is so pointless unless you're doing multi-pitch or belaying from the top. hmmmm....
In reply to: pedantic adj. Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details. Yup that's me; but then again, I acknowledged it wasn't really going to overly concern her, or anyone else for that matter. As for immature... well I didn't start the name calling did I?
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 7, 2009, 6:12 AM
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Thanks. So, any chance you live near Red Rocks. I'll be there for a week at the end of March. We should climb together if you're going to be around. :)
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 7, 2009, 6:39 AM
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macblaze wrote: Point 1: the thread is about gym climbing Yes, but you seem to think that it's a good practice to get into whether you're in the gym or not. And in this thread as well as the poll that you revered to somewhere in this thread, you can see that a minority of people use all of the standard signals in the gym -- I think it was less than 25%. And I honestly think some people voted in that category that use some kind of climbing signals, but not the standard ones (based on some of the comments in the thread). Either way, it's a minority. And my guess is that most (not all, but most) of the people that insist on using the standard signals all the time are novice, inexperienced climbers.
macblaze wrote: Point 2: Climbing in the gym is the major place to actually go through all the rigmarole because half the time your belayer is trying to chat up blonde with more cleavage than brains Geez, who do you climb with? My partners aren't like that. And even if they were, I don't see how:"On Belay? "Belay On" etc. etc. is any safer than: "Ready?' "Yup." (With a visual check for self-confirmation that they do have you on). In fact, I think in some cases it's less safe as people often respond by habit when they don't even have their hand on the brake! I've found that "Ready?" often calls someone's attention to what they're doing much better than the "standard" belay signals.
macblaze wrote: Point 3: the verbals are, to me, just a signal that everyone has made their checks and are now in the game. Okay. If that's the way you roll. But why wouldn't you climb with someone who didn't do it exactly your way? There are other ways to verbally commit to belaying someone.
macblaze wrote: Point 4: Caliclimbergirl makes the point that "the other stuff is ... pointless unless you 're doing multipitch", while you, seeming to agree with her overall, are on the opposite side of that argument... No he's not. If you read my other posts in this thread, you'll see that I talked about how you often can't hear someone on multi-pitch to use the commands anyway. I do think the commands are pointless when climbing in the gym or cragging, but I don't always use them in multi-pitch either as there are times when you can't hear each other. I do like verbal commands better than tugs when doing multi-pitch, but I think there should always be a back-up plan in case you can't hear each other. I'm not going to go into detail on that one, you'll have to read through the thread and find that post if you want my thoughts on that matter.
macblaze wrote: And finally... Point 5: I guess us "gym rats" should just stfu until we can lead 5.9 ... It has nothing to do with what grade you're leading and everything to do with experience and safety. I have partners that don't lead anything at all, never mind 5.9. And I've climbed with people who can lead 5.11 that I would never climb with again because I didn't feel safe with them. Thinking that the rote standard belay signals makes you any more safe is a dangerous assumption. I'm sure (at least I hope) you have other standards for what makes someone safe. But if you're only standard for a climbing partner is that they always use the standard belay signals and nothing else, I think you'd actually increase the likelihood of climbing with inexperienced people that are actually *more* likely to do something unsafe. Anyway, after seeing all your thoughts on all this, I wouldn't climb with you either. So at least we agree on something.
(This post was edited by caliclimbergrl on Mar 7, 2009, 6:52 AM)
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macblaze
Mar 7, 2009, 7:05 PM
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caliclimbergrl wrote: macblaze wrote: Point 5: I guess us "gym rats" should just stfu until we can lead 5.9 ... It has nothing to do with what grade you're leading and everything to do with experience and safety. I have partners that don't lead anything at all, never mind 5.9. And I've climbed with people who can lead 5.11 that I would never climb with again because I didn't feel safe with them. Thinking that the rote standard belay signals makes you any more safe is a dangerous assumption. I'm sure (at least I hope) you have other standards for what makes someone safe. But if you're only standard for a climbing partner is that they always use the standard belay signals and nothing else, I think you'd actually increase the likelihood of climbing with inexperienced people that are actually *more* likely to do something unsafe. Anyway, after seeing all your thoughts on all this, I wouldn't climb with you either. So at least we agree on something. Just to clarify, my original comments were somewhat tongue-in-cheek although I will own the fact that since I am forced to climb mostly in a gym, and with a varying degree of partners, I do rely on "rote" standards to make decisions. Your original comment was as flip as mine insomuch as you asked if anyone actually "used" the standard signals and inferred that they "seemed" pointless. I do. And I expect may partners to. Not really much to ask. As for the 5.9 snark, that's just me getting drawn into name calling with someone who decided that if you insist on a standard then you must be a gym rat/noob. I don't climb as much as I'd like to and I don't have a stable of partner's I can count on. In the end, I probably would more than happy to climb with you if we sat down and sorted through the semantics. Anyway, enough of this nonsense. Lets just hope for some good *&^% weather so I can get out of the ^%$ gym!
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desertwanderer81
Mar 7, 2009, 8:29 PM
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Let's be honest with ourselves. You are a gym rat and a new outdoors climber. There is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people climb much harder than me and that's fine with me. However with that, sometimes if you quiet down, you can learn something from someone who knows a thing or two about what you really want to be doing. Heck, I learn things all the time and I've been climbing for many many years now. Honestly, nothing caliclimbergrl said was flip. It was an honest gripe and one that I can agree with.
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viciado
Mar 7, 2009, 9:21 PM
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I'm not entirely sure that this will add to what has already been said, but I can't help myself... I too believe that pedntic insistence on the verbal communications can lead to dangerous assumptions. I prefer to view the commands from a pedagogical approach. The commands can help us learn safe proceedure, but they do not guarantee it. When we assume that someone is safe just because they can rattle off a set of verbalizations at seemingly appropriate intervals, we invite trouble. I am more concerned about safe practice than good pronunciation. I do teach the commands and yes, they are part of the "technical aptitude test." (sounds good on the certificate) BUT neither will a climber pass nor will fail the test based on verbalization. They will pass or fail on the merits of safe practice. Unfortunately, liability issues in a gym setting tend to pre-define safe practice in what seems to me to be a somewhat arbitrary fashion.
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macblaze
Mar 7, 2009, 11:00 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: Let's be honest with ourselves. You are a gym rat and a new outdoors climber. There is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people climb much harder than me and that's fine with me. However with that, sometimes if you quiet down, you can learn something from someone who knows a thing or two about what you really want to be doing. Heck, I learn things all the time and I've been climbing for many many years now. Honestly, nothing caliclimbergrl said was flip. It was an honest gripe and one that I can agree with. Really, the trap of the internet is that these arguments go on and on and on because everyone wants to be right and everyone wants to have the last word. Make you a deal. I'll let you be right, and I'll take the last word. Here it comes... Penultimate.
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olderic
Mar 8, 2009, 1:18 AM
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IT'S A GYM. A commercial/for profit establishment. It;s not about real climbers. It's not about the spirit of climbing. It's not about establishing habits that are safer or "better". The rules they have are arbitrary - established for any number of reasons. If you don't like them don't play. If I want to go to a gym and they say I need to wear a pink tutu if I am only top roping but get to wear a purple one if I am leading - plus need to recite chapter from the holy bible of Long everytime before both feet leave the ground - so be it. It;'s the gym - not actual climbing. Reframe your question to climbing on your own outside. In that case I teach the whole 9 yards to new people but when climbing with my peers may exchange a few grunts before starting up.
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sungam
Mar 8, 2009, 2:58 AM
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Did I get the last word?
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macblaze
Mar 8, 2009, 3:39 AM
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sungam wrote: Did I get the last word? no.
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maculated
Mar 9, 2009, 8:41 PM
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j_ung
Mar 9, 2009, 8:48 PM
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cracklover wrote: caliclimbergrl wrote: macblaze wrote: I like the comfort of an established ritual that allows me to politely reinforce the duties and responsibilities of a partnership... But then again, maybe I'm too much of a noob... I honestly don't know a single person who always goes through all of the established climbing signals that has been climbing for more than a year. I've been climbing ten years, I've climbed all over, in almost every style, and even when I climb in the gym with my primary partner, who I know and trust implicitly, I ask "Am I on?" every single time before I set out up the wall. So there you go. Now you know one person who does. GO I read that as not knowing anybody who always says: "On belay?" "Belay on." "Climbing." "Climb on." I don't believe I know anybody who does that every time either.
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 9, 2009, 8:58 PM
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j_ung wrote: I read that as not knowing anybody who always says: "On belay?" "Belay on." "Climbing." "Climb on." I don't believe I know anybody who does that every time either. Yes, that's exactly what I meant! I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say. :)
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cracklover
Mar 9, 2009, 9:11 PM
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j_ung wrote: cracklover wrote: caliclimbergrl wrote: macblaze wrote: I like the comfort of an established ritual that allows me to politely reinforce the duties and responsibilities of a partnership... But then again, maybe I'm too much of a noob... I honestly don't know a single person who always goes through all of the established climbing signals that has been climbing for more than a year. I've been climbing ten years, I've climbed all over, in almost every style, and even when I climb in the gym with my primary partner, who I know and trust implicitly, I ask "Am I on?" every single time before I set out up the wall. So there you go. Now you know one person who does. GO I read that as not knowing anybody who always says: "On belay?" "Belay on." "Climbing." "Climb on." I don't believe I know anybody who does that every time either. Yep, I think we clarified all that, including me explaining my response (not quoted by you) on the last page. GO
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macblaze
Mar 9, 2009, 10:33 PM
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And for a while there, I was thinking I had picked the right word. Oh well
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