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mar_leclerc
Mar 14, 2009, 8:56 PM
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I've been climbing for a few years but I have a question.
There is this route near my place that is a diagonal splitter crack up a steep face. It is normally climbed by laybacking left (good edge) and fighting the barn door. It isn't too hard ( I can TR it no problem) but I can't see into the crack to place pro. Any tips on how to position yourself to place and inspect pro on such a climb?
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 14, 2009, 9:59 PM
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mar_leclerc wrote: I've been climbing for a few years but I have a question. There is this route near my place that is a diagonal splitter crack up a steep face. It is normally climbed by laybacking left (good edge) and fighting the barn door. It isn't too hard ( I can TR it no problem) but I can't see into the crack to place pro. Any tips on how to position yourself to place and inspect pro on such a climb?
A lot of this is experience with knowing your cam sizes compared to your hands/fingers. I have placed pieces blind plenty of times. I would rather not and when I get a chance I try to visually check, but being able to know the size without totally seeing into the crack is a good skill to have. That just comes from experience.
Aside from that, if you are laybacking a hard section, can you look at the section from the ground or from a stance and tell what size it is? You can then get that size ready on the front of your harness. Or is there any chance of getting into a position to be able to look into the crack? I often do this, but it is often pumpy to do, so you want to do it efficiently and quick.
Josh
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mar_leclerc
Mar 14, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Those are some good ideas. Next time I'm on it I want to see if I can pivot from the layback into a more staight on finger lock to place pro. Seeing as the crack flares in a few spots just guessing based on how big it feels would be pretty sketch on this one.
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kane_schutzman
Mar 14, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Be careful, I guess if you can do it on TR just find places to place gear before you lead it. My first lead fall was on Fingers in a lightsocket, its just like your describing. Pulled a piece, because I was unknowingly placing too small of gear at the top. You can always mark where you wanna place gear with chalk. This isnt all that fucking complicated
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sungam
Mar 15, 2009, 12:29 AM
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Sometimes I place the gear blind, then "sneak a peak" for just a second by pulling in. It's too strenuous to do with just one arm (while trying to place gear) but you can often get away with pulling in with both arms to check the piece isn't all wonkified or anything.
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kane_schutzman
Mar 15, 2009, 1:12 AM
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My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious?
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sungam
Mar 15, 2009, 1:29 AM
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Tipton wrote: kane_schutzman wrote: My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious? Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route.
Korekt.
Or maybe you should just bolt it?
Wouldn't want to risk your health, and coloured bolts aren't that obvious, either.
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moose_droppings
Mar 15, 2009, 2:15 AM
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sungam wrote: Tipton wrote: kane_schutzman wrote: My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious? Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route. BAM. Korekt. Or maybe you should just bolt it? Wouldn't want to risk your health, and coloured bolts aren't that obvious, either.
Double BAM!
Ouch
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robdotcalm
Mar 15, 2009, 2:21 AM
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Mar:
Since you said you’re a relatively new climber, it might not be clear as to what is really being discussed. Tick marks are the chalk marks you make on toprope to decide where to place gear. To do so is generally regarded as unsightly. Very déclassé.
A more important point is that you mention the crack rises diagonally. Gear placements, especially camming devices, behave less reliably in such cracks since when one falls, it is at an angle to the crack, which places a twisting force on the gear. The best way to find out about this is to place some gear in such a crack, while either standing on the ground or on toprope, and jump on a sling attached to the gear.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
_______________________________________________________
‘Tis better to have trad and failed then not to have trad at all.
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mar_leclerc
Mar 15, 2009, 2:49 AM
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I've been leading trad for a couple years. I know what tick marks are, I will confess to making such a mark when I was working on the FA of a hard climb where I had to hang one handed in a roof and place a cam...
i will try out different placements like you suggested.
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kane_schutzman
Mar 15, 2009, 4:34 AM
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The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack. Good day.
(This post was edited by kane_schutzman on Mar 15, 2009, 4:37 AM)
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Tipton
Mar 15, 2009, 4:46 AM
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kane_schutzman wrote: The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack. Good day.
You'll go far.
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rschap
Mar 15, 2009, 5:02 AM
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One of my first trad partners went to some guide school where they pounded in to his head to never lie back. So when I climbed with him we took every crack head on even back leaning dihedrals. It and he was a pain in the ass but it did keep me out of trouble a couple of times. I still think there are cases where a lie back is necessary I’m just saying I personally use it as a last resort.
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notapplicable
Mar 15, 2009, 9:08 AM
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kane_schutzman wrote: The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack.
Thats too funny. I've got this image in my head of you with one color for hands, another for feet and yet another for gear placements. A whole color coded tick marking rainbow!
Interestingly enough, there is one guy I climb with who carries a piece of pink sidewalk chalk in his chalk bag. He doesn't tick mark with it or anything, he just uses it as a worry stone of sorts while resting and shaking out. He's a strange dude though.
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angry
Mar 15, 2009, 10:30 AM
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To the OP and to some others in this thread.
Take some fucking pride, learn to climb, stop being weak.
There's a (very) occasional 11+ crack that needs a lieback. In the 12's it's a move here and a move there. Almost never the whole route.
Unless you can sport so damn hard that you can power through anything (13+ minimum), the layback will make you a weaker crack climber.
I suggest you look at the routes in my profile before you disagree with me.
I don't layback, I'm a piss poor sport climber, but I felt it was worth my time to learn how to climb a crack. Not climb around it. It's worked for me.
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mar_leclerc
Mar 15, 2009, 4:43 PM
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It could be jammed theoretically. The problem is that the crack cuts into the face at an angle (not cutting straight into the rock) so one side is a jug and the other is a big sloper. It's pretty easy just to grab the jug and put your feet on the sloper and cruise up. Halfway is gets wider and I just jam it and take a rest, then the crack petters out and it's face holds to the top. The climb is way below my max grade, so I guess I ought to just ball up and go for it...
Heres the route (I know Im pinkpointing, please don't turn this into a hate thread)
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robdotcalm
Mar 15, 2009, 8:51 PM
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angry wrote: To the OP and to some others in this thread. Take some fucking pride, learn to climb, stop being weak. There's a (very) occasional 11+ crack that needs a lieback. In the 12's it's a move here and a move there. Almost never the whole route. Unless you can sport so damn hard that you can power through anything (13+ minimum), the layback will make you a weaker crack climber. I suggest you look at the routes in my profile before you disagree with me. I don't layback, I'm a piss poor sport climber, but I felt it was worth my time to learn how to climb a crack. Not climb around it. It's worked for me.
This is an obvious assertion no sane person would doubt: The technique used, e.g., jamming, liebacking, facing, depends on the rock and is situational. Knowing what to use and where is part of becoming a better climber.
Following rigid dogma so that, say, an easy lieback becomes a difficult jam defies common sense.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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angry
Mar 15, 2009, 9:15 PM
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There are some exceptions I can think of. That said, I've climbed thousands of cracks at all grades.
If I were to chart it all out I bet that the layback is the "better" or "easier" way maybe 2% of the time.
For the sake of argument, lets say it's 10%. That leaves you with 90% of crack routes working better with pure jamming techniques and not laybacks.
I'd say that would be the ideal skillset to follow a strict dogma of techniques. Even on the laybacks, you still place your pro off jams then return to laybacks once you're ready to climb again.
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kane_schutzman
Mar 15, 2009, 9:52 PM
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1. That route looks like garbage with a capital G, and a pronounced B, and GGGGGGG, and the end.
2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.
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dynoho
Mar 15, 2009, 9:55 PM
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angry wrote: There are some exceptions I can think of. That said, I've climbed thousands of cracks at all grades. If I were to chart it all out I bet that the layback is the "better" or "easier" way maybe 2% of the time.
Listen to angry. While the technique can be useful, it is a parasite on your stamina. Cracks are painful SOBS, but stay over your toes and you can go all day. Blow out your arms, you'll walk away.
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devkrev
Mar 15, 2009, 10:15 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: 1. That route looks like garbage with a capital G, and a pronounced B, and GGGGGGG, and the end. 2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.
What about the next person tick marking gear placements on a top rope?
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Johnny_Fang
Mar 15, 2009, 10:31 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: 1. That route looks like garbage with a capital G, and a pronounced B, and GGGGGGG, and the end. 2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.
don't feed the trolls, folks. i do like your sig line, kane.
hey, where is that climb? i've spent a decent amount time at squamish but i can't identify it. it looks fun.
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justroberto
Mar 16, 2009, 5:23 AM
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devkrev wrote: kane_schutzman wrote: My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious? Then why lead the climb at all? dev
Well, what else is he going to do with the 53 cams he bought before he knew how to use them?
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rschap
Mar 16, 2009, 5:56 AM
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I’m going to have to agree with Angry, especially after seeing the picture. That crack should be taken head on, you are only using the lie back as a crutch and it’s making you weaker. If you’re going to just TR the route climb it however you want, if you’re trying to advance your climbing ability start working on taking it head on the skills you’ll learn will pay off later. Of course that’s just my opinion from the climbing I’ve done, do what you want.
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dr_feelgood
Mar 16, 2009, 12:45 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack. Good day.
Why not just carry a sharpie and write which sized piece you're going to place with several green and red arrows pointing to the proper orientation.
Toolbag.
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dr_feelgood
Mar 16, 2009, 12:46 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: 1. That route looks like garbage with a capital G, and a pronounced B, and GGGGGGG, and the end. 2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.
Yes, death threats in compensation for poor skill. Real mature.
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nthusiastj
Mar 16, 2009, 1:20 PM
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mar_leclerc wrote: It could be jammed theoretically. The problem is that the crack cuts into the face at an angle (not cutting straight into the rock) so one side is a jug and the other is a big sloper. It's pretty easy just to grab the jug and put your feet on the sloper and cruise up. Halfway is gets wider and I just jam it and take a rest, then the crack petters out and it's face holds to the top. The climb is way below my max grade, so I guess I ought to just ball up and go for it... Heres the route (I know Im pinkpointing, please don't turn this into a hate thread) [image]http://imglarge.mountainproject.com/106174126_898ee7.jpg[/image]
The key really is to know your cam sizes to your hand and finger sizes as someone has said.
It looks like you can see the whole route from the ground and scope out what gear you want and in what order. Just rack the gear on your harness in order.
Tick marks probably aren't necessary if it's pretty far below your ability. Just take some time to memeorize where you want to place.
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j_ung
Mar 16, 2009, 2:06 PM
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Ya know, there are several stages of ticking that fall someplace between none and a ten-inch long, 1/2-inch thick line that looks like it was applied in oil by Michaelangelo. If done responsibly, tick marking doesn't have to be an ethics issue.
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thabadcharacter
Mar 16, 2009, 2:19 PM
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Hey, could be worse- on the Black Roof pitch of the North america Wall/El Nino, there were taped down Post-It notes saying "#3 Camalot, 0.5 Camalot, etc". In very Euro handwriting I might add!
(This post was edited by thabadcharacter on Mar 16, 2009, 4:13 PM)
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kane_schutzman
Mar 16, 2009, 3:21 PM
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justroberto wrote: devkrev wrote: kane_schutzman wrote: My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious? Then why lead the climb at all? dev Well, what else is he going to do with the 53 cams he bought before he knew how to use them?
I've tried the sharpie thing, first off, the rock tears the tips up too easily. The line is too skinny, probably the size of your penis. Also the chalk sticks get into the divits in the rock better.
Mr. Feelgood.
(This post was edited by kane_schutzman on Mar 16, 2009, 3:24 PM)
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kane_schutzman
Mar 16, 2009, 3:26 PM
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I think the real problem here is that neither of you climb hard enough to know why tick marks can be useful.
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diebetes
Mar 16, 2009, 4:15 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: I think the real problem here is that neither of you climb hard enough to know why tick marks can be useful.
It's pretty self explanatory what purpose tick marks serve. And I mean, if you know what they're good for, chances are the rest of the people on here do as well.
I like to keep things friendly, but I gotta say Kane, you're being a big ol bag-o-douche in this thread. Please remedy this.
Also, keep in mind that more than just climbers enjoy rock faces and the areas around them. Sure climbers get used to chalk, but lets face it- if it weren't for climbers, there wouldn't be chalk on the rock to begin with (don't be a smart-ass and point out exceptions provided by nature). Think of something really hate- let's go with vaginas. Imagine how upset you'd be if you had to put up with unwanted vaginas scattering your recreational areas. You'd probably think that the people responsible were selfish. You'd be right.
Keep chalk to a minimum.
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Tipton
Mar 16, 2009, 4:25 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: I think the real problem here is that neither of you climb hard enough to know why tick marks can be useful.
I think the real problem here is that you haven't climbed long enough to know why tick marks can be a pain.
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brownie710
Mar 16, 2009, 5:03 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: The hell with each and every one of you vegan eatin hippi sons a bitches. Im tick marking every lieback crack I climb from now until I fucking die. Someone else say something smart and I'm going to start racking one of those neon green concrete chalk sticks on my rack. Good day.
I believe this is the adult translation of "I'm taking my marbles and I'm going home!"
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md3
Mar 16, 2009, 5:11 PM
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Off topic as to tick marks -- but maybe its worth mentioning that if you do end up laying something back thats hard for you on lead, its a good time to be wearing a helmet. At least when I have taken falls in those situations, I have sometimes ended up flipping over and falling in less predictable ways than when climbing straight in.
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mar_leclerc
Mar 16, 2009, 6:18 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: I think the real problem here is that neither of you climb hard enough to know why tick marks can be useful.
The only time I ever used a tick-mark was on a V9 to find a fotthold around a corner.
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mar_leclerc
Mar 16, 2009, 6:20 PM
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Johnny_Fang wrote: hey, where is that climb? i've spent a decent amount time at squamish but i can't identify it. it looks fun.
Thats because its at the Harrison Bluffs, near Harison Hot Springs, a couple hours East of Squamish. The crack the right is like our local 'Crime of the Century'...
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sungam
Mar 16, 2009, 6:20 PM
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mar_leclerc wrote: kane_schutzman wrote: I think the real problem here is that neither of you climb hard enough to know why tick marks can be useful. The only time I ever used a tick-mark was on a V9 to find a fotthold around a corner.
Banz him now! NOW!
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 16, 2009, 9:00 PM
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angry wrote: There are some exceptions I can think of. That said, I've climbed thousands of cracks at all grades. If I were to chart it all out I bet that the layback is the "better" or "easier" way maybe 2% of the time. For the sake of argument, lets say it's 10%. That leaves you with 90% of crack routes working better with pure jamming techniques and not laybacks. I'd say that would be the ideal skillset to follow a strict dogma of techniques. Even on the laybacks, you still place your pro off jams then return to laybacks once you're ready to climb again.
I agree with you. My first thought when I read the OP was, "Why in the world would you layback a splitter?! There are plenty of cracks that you need to layback. But they're usually corner cracks -- almost never splitters.
And seeing the picture confirms that for me -- yeah, it's a bit of an awkward angle, but it looks like granite so you could jam one foot and smear the other. Looks like a jam crack to me!
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 16, 2009, 9:03 PM
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Tipton wrote: Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route.
I'm sure this is true in a lot of places, but it looks like he's in British Columbia. It rains pretty much constantly 9 months a year there and usually at least once a month for at least several days straight even in the summer. Tick marks aren't a problem up there.
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Tipton
Mar 16, 2009, 9:35 PM
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caliclimbergrl wrote: Tipton wrote: Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route. I'm sure this is true in a lot of places, but it looks like he's in British Columbia. It rains pretty much constantly 9 months a year there and usually at least once a month for at least several days straight even in the summer. Tick marks aren't a problem up there.
I suppose that might be the case. But for the person who jumps on the route an hour after you, they are still an annoyance.
Personally, I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I mean, is it really that hard to remember what goes where? If you've already inspected it and worked out the placements on top rope, then why can't you just rack the pieces in the appropriate order and remember where to put them?
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 16, 2009, 9:39 PM
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Tick marks suck. They are so much more obvious than a chalked hold and don't clean nearly as easy. If your good health is at risk, then you shouldn't be leading the route.[/quote]
I'm sure this is true in a lot of places, but it looks like he's in British Columbia. It rains pretty much constantly 9 months a year there and usually at least once a month for at least several days straight even in the summer. Tick marks aren't a problem up there.[/quote]
I suppose that might be the case. But for the person who jumps on the route an hour after you, they are still an annoyance.
Personally, I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I mean, is it really that hard to remember what goes where? If you've already inspected it and worked out the placements on top rope, then why can't you just rack the pieces in the appropriate order and remember where to put them?[/quote]
I don't know -- personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable placing gear blind. I wouldn't trust my memory. Actually, I'm not entirely sure I'd trust tick marks either. Just because you're placing the right size piece in the right place doesn't mean it's well placed! If I couldn't at least get jams for gear placement, I wouldn't lead that crack. But it wouldn't really bother me to climb it with tick marks on it.
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hafilax
Mar 16, 2009, 9:50 PM
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mar_leclerc wrote: It could be jammed theoretically. The problem is that the crack cuts into the face at an angle (not cutting straight into the rock) so one side is a jug and the other is a big sloper. It's pretty easy just to grab the jug and put your feet on the sloper and cruise up. Halfway is gets wider and I just jam it and take a rest, then the crack petters out and it's face holds to the top. The climb is way below my max grade, so I guess I ought to just ball up and go for it... Heres the route (I know Im pinkpointing, please don't turn this into a hate thread)
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kane_schutzman
Mar 16, 2009, 11:34 PM
Post #50 of 55
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Registered: May 14, 2005
Posts: 896
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Frankly the best thing about this deal is that I'm not sure I've ever even placed a tick mark. Still I will defend them in some instances. I have bigger things to worry about, tick marks don't annoy me, I pass them by. Wow, well this was fun guys.
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dr_feelgood
Mar 17, 2009, 1:38 AM
Post #51 of 55
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Registered: Apr 6, 2004
Posts: 26060
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kane_schutzman wrote: justroberto wrote: devkrev wrote: kane_schutzman wrote: My style is to be able to climb another day. I'm not going to compromise my fucking good health just to do a shitty lieback route in good style. OHH god don't chalk up the rock. R U fucking serious? Then why lead the climb at all? dev Well, what else is he going to do with the 53 cams he bought before he knew how to use them?You again? Jesus I swear its like your trying to write my fucking biography or something. Is it bad to have alot of cams? Is it bad I have money coming out of my ass? Your probably right I need to get that checked, its just that Im running out of place to put it.Get a life man! I've tried the sharpie thing, first off, the rock tears the tips up too easily. The line is too skinny, probably the size of your penis. Also the chalk sticks get into the divits in the rock better. Mr. Feelgood.
Yes, attempting to bring my masculinity into question by comparing the width of my penis with a sharpie. I suppose it is too late to bow out gracefully for you.
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billcoe_
Mar 25, 2009, 5:33 PM
Post #53 of 55
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
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kane_schutzman wrote: 1. That route looks like garbage with a capital G, and a pronounced B, and GGGGGGG, and the end. 2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.
Don't be hatin'
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cracklover
Mar 25, 2009, 6:12 PM
Post #54 of 55
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
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At first I was going to side with the OP, because I've been on hard to protect pitches where the best way up is insecure undercling/sidepulls (like the middle pitch of Retaliation at Cathedral). And his description of the route made it sound just like that.
Then I saw the photo. That is totally a jamcrack.
GO
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hafilax
Mar 25, 2009, 6:35 PM
Post #55 of 55
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Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
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kane_schutzman wrote: 2. I shoot the next person I see jamming a lieback.
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