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happiegrrrl
May 7, 2009, 2:07 AM
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clee03m wrote: At the risk of being nosey, how come you can't keep your partners? Is that because you climb with SO's and you break up or you just can't keep climbing partners? Just curious...
Regular Partner A - Realized they had to focus on grad school if they wanted that PhD.
Regular Partner B - Got pregnant, quit climbing for the duration, single mom.
Regular Partner C - Opposite sex that, after climbing together all season, finally made a move. An unwanted one, unfortunately, which has made it a little uncomfortable since.
Those are regulars for the last 3 seasons or so. Along with those, I would post for people online, and get a gamut of students, visitors, and others who had regular partners that were unavailable that day for whatever reason. That's been the majority of people I climb with since day one. I actually have more "regular" climbing partners when I go to Joshua Tree than I do here at home.
With the "day climbers," we always have good days. Never had an epic that was actually an epic. Never heard any rumblings of discontent. But it seems when people do the musical chairs dance for partners, I am the one still standing when the music stops.
It's not necessarily a climbing partner thing; I'm just not good at *friending,* it seems. Have always been very comfortable with solitude and actually require large amounts of it. I get agitated when I have to spend large amounts of time with people and cannot get away, and when I see that "friend" ball being lobbed my way, it's like I see it but don't get the concept. The ball goes over my shoulder. Repeatedly. And eventually people think either I am trying to put them off or they get sick of making the effort.
It's not that I can't keep partners, it's more like I just don't develop relationships with them to ever become regular partners. It would appear I am slightly socially defective, in some way. Moreso that your average climber(and that's saying something!) :(
By the way - I need a partner for Saturday..... oy veh.
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wonderwoman
May 7, 2009, 2:50 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: wonderwoman wrote: camhead wrote: wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad. You've inspired me! Next time instead of backing off, I'm just going to jump on my partner's shoulders! I'm going to remember that technique - that will give me at least another 6 ft!! heh ls
Alley Oop
5.7
Gunks
Hans Kraus avoided the thin bouldery start by stepping on Stan Gross's shoulders.
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clausti
May 7, 2009, 10:50 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Still, I love the feelings I get from leading. It's just so different than following or toproping. ... Seconding or toproping too much is like going through the motions of sex without getting to the ' O'. *** 
you know, not everyone can climax from penetration alone. 
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happiegrrrl
May 7, 2009, 11:58 AM
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hahahaha - so funny, WW's analogy, but when you really think about the thing(routefinding, placement considerations followed through with loving care - and the quick reversal to try something that "feels better" when our choice was off, the contentment of a nut in....just the right spot, the final problem overcome before the run for top out.....) I can see the correlation.
But - is this a trad phenomenon? Or is clipping bolts similar?
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lena_chita
Moderator
May 7, 2009, 2:20 PM
Post #56 of 82
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clausti wrote: wonderwoman wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Still, I love the feelings I get from leading. It's just so different than following or toproping. ... Seconding or toproping too much is like going through the motions of sex without getting to the ' O'. *** you know, not everyone can climax from penetration alone.
Thanks for starting my day with a laugh, ladies!
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iamthewallress
May 7, 2009, 4:39 PM
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I can't relate to sport climbing boldness as much, having not really done it.
I know lots of guys who regularly climb 5.10 or harder on iffy rock/choss with minimal gear and major consequences if they make mistakes (fall). They don't make mistakes in these situations, so they don't seem crazy to me, just confident.
I don't know any women that can routine accomplish the same, although I know a couple (including me) who aspire to it and have heard stories of a few women from BITD and an occasional story about rad mountaineer chick that I've never otherwise heard of. I wish I knew more women looking for this. It's not that choss itself is so appealing, but it's part of the deal to do most long routes off the beaten path and to do new routes.
When there's nearly always a TR available for these types of pitches (Yes, b/c I'm a girl...specifically a girlfriend, b/c if I wasn't a more able partner would probably be tied into my end of the rope. That's just honest.), I have to make an extra effort to not shirk my leads on the ones that I can safely pull off myself.
My confidence on this type of terrain has really increased in recent years, but getting confident is a process. I don't think it's something that most folks, male or female get as fast as cranking strength, since you need to have a lot different experiences before you can feel reasonably sure that you'll be able to deal with what comes your way when you run it out into the unknown. You start out with a big margin of safety and plenty of things that make you uncomfortable, and bit by bit as you learn to deal with different hazzards, your sense of what is 'not too bad' expands.
I don't think taking lead falls is that smart on a lot of what I climb. The people whose boldenss I admire most are the ones that really know the edge of where they will not fall and can climb right up to it without shrinking away or letting fear reduce their experience.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on May 7, 2009, 4:43 PM)
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acacongua
May 8, 2009, 3:09 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: But - is this a trad phenomenon? Or is clipping bolts similar?
TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
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wonderwoman
May 8, 2009, 3:35 AM
Post #59 of 82
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acacongua wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: But - is this a trad phenomenon? Or is clipping bolts similar? TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
I guess sport and trad gals are equally dirty! 
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olive
May 9, 2009, 11:11 PM
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acacongua wrote: TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
he he, but maybe, just like masturbation, you can see what works and what does not work for you when TRing?
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olive
May 9, 2009, 11:22 PM
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I was going to say - I generally don't have lead-head issues. But then, I had an awful day of leading few days ago... and remembered that obviously those days still come and go for me. Some of the stuff that have been mentioned are important for my lead head as well - I tend to forget about who is belaying me when I am leading something that is hard for me, but if the belayer is way heavier than I am, I do more takes instead of pushing myself and falling - I do get seriously afraid for my ankles. I also am more wimpy right before my period.
But two days ago, i realized my biggest enemy for my lead-head: Feeling tired. I dont know how it works for all of you - but if I get into the route feeling tired, it kills my confidence, cant push myself, thus cant concentrate as well, and end up concentrating more on how tired I feel... Feeling physically good and feeling confident seem to relate strongly to each other in my case, and affect my leading. Early on in the day, I onsight stuff, I jump on projects whatever, but as time passes by and I feel like I am getting tired, I shy away from leading, or lead stuff way easier. Some of it is losing confidence as I said above, but I feel it is also an issue of being afraid of failing, flailing, and struggling in my case.
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clee03m
May 11, 2009, 4:18 PM
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acacongua wrote: TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
hahaha! I thought the O example was a bit severe. I believe this one is PERFECT. And I say it's true for both trad and sport.
For male persepective, one of my climbing partners said, for dudes, it's the difference between having sex with or without condoms.
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lhwang
May 14, 2009, 3:37 PM
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clee03m wrote: For male persepective, one of my climbing partners said, for dudes, it's the difference between having sex with or without condoms.
And of course there's the whole increased risk thing too (STDs, unwanted pregnancy...)
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lwilson
May 21, 2009, 1:55 PM
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Of course everyone has a different story to tell, but I would guess that motivation has something to do with the 'hesistant' nature of women when leading. If you are motivated to TR, then you will TR. If you are motivated to lead, you will lead. Now, this isn't to say that women have less motivation, its just maybe women don't have the same type of motivation as men do when it comes to climbing. I have found that as I progress through climbing, my motivations change, just as my confidence level changes. And when I say 'progress' this doesn't just mean to climb harder, but more like how you view climbing.
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ACJ
May 21, 2009, 2:46 PM
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I don't think that most women are hesitant to lead or start leading unless they have been groomed for it. I do a lot of climbing instruction and I often times see people, guys especially, teaching others with a fear based style.
In other words, instead of explaining how to do something and why, it comes across as "don't back clip, you will die" or "watch your leg around the rope, you will smash your head." Now yes there are dangers involved in climbing but I don't think that teaching people to be scared is the best way to go.
When my girlfriend and I go out to climb together she usually doesn't want to lead the things I do. She is capable, but not motivated. Then she heads out with her girl friends and leads a few number grades higher than usual. For just this reason I like to climb with guys as well. Since my guy friends prefer to swap leads it's easier for me to climb harder since I know that I don't have to keep it up all day long, as well as, one of my friends can save my gear if I can't make it up.
Final note, occasionally she does rescue me on leads she thinks are above her or sketchy. I'm allergic to bees and if there is a nest on the route I back off. Since neither one of us want to leave trad gear she usually climbs up right through that craziness, bees and all and then we move on. There she had motivation and didn't hesitate.
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jt512
May 31, 2009, 3:42 AM
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clausti wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side.
Gathering is gay.
Jay
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clausti
May 31, 2009, 3:58 AM
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jt512 wrote: clausti wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side. Gathering is gay. Jay
post stalker.
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jt512
May 31, 2009, 4:01 AM
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clausti wrote: jt512 wrote: clausti wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side. Gathering is gay. Jay post stalker.
Not!
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clee03m
Jun 1, 2009, 2:39 PM
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jt512 wrote: Gathering is gay. Jay
Homophobe
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jemco
Jun 10, 2009, 6:51 PM
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I wanted to mention that MANY males (myself included) are also daunted by leading. I don't pay much heed to the gender-as-evolution argument as there are plenty of very bold/strong women climbers that are also evolutionary beings. What I believe is more likely is in part a numbers game (there are WAY more men climbers, thus more bold leaders) and in part a cultural phenomenon. I still find the majority of women climbers are getting into the sport via boyfriends or friends that are boys. As the numbers of women introducing women to climbing increases, we should see an increase in the number of women that lead (in part because of necessity, in part because of desire) and don't defer that task to a male.
Just a thought.
jemco
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blkela
Jun 14, 2009, 8:49 AM
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im a guy, i sorry for butting in, heres my two cents.
look at #2 on this reply
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2155560;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;page=unread#unread
i know plenty of women that can and do lead. take this into consideration too, the dude wants to show off by doing a dyno, maybe he just wants to make her giggle by shakin' his a$$.
why do you think i let her lead?
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tallgirl
Jun 14, 2009, 1:24 PM
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Great thread and I wanted to add a few comments.
Leading opened up a whole new world for me and greatly expanded my experience of climbing. My partner/SO is a stronger climber/leader than I am but he has always been supportive and encouraging-and considers us a partnership no matter how hard I climb/lead.
I had this experience recently:
I was leading a .7 at the gunks and had attempted the crux section a few times (in the process of figuring it out) when a guy on the next climb over started to tell me how to do it. I think had I been a male that wouldn't of happened. I didn't have the foresight to say -hey I'd like to figure this out for myself-. Instead I listened and attempted to "do what he said" and finally was lowered because I was really unnerved and confused.
I realized later that I'd bought in to the gender thing...that I NEEDED his help because he was giving it and he probably knew better than I did.
It really informed me on my own susceptibility to gender stereotypes and I hope the next time I'll be able to speak up for myself and concentrate on my own experience rather than accommodate someone elses.
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kimmyt
Jun 16, 2009, 9:54 PM
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i wouldn't be so sure it was because you were a girl- most people at the gunks go around spewing beta if they're given half a chance.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 17, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Well, I know that I got no problem shutting down a beta-blabber! I can't stand beta. Someone tries to suggest a move, hold, sequence or whatever to me and they pretty much get told "NO BETA!" before they've finished drawing their beta breath.
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tallgirl
Jun 17, 2009, 11:47 AM
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I spend so much time at the far end of the 'nears not seeing anyone - I can only imagine what the Trapps must be like with the conga line on Frogshead and beta flying every which way.
Thanks for the insight!
and Terrie I'll remember NO BETA
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