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scrapedape
May 7, 2009, 8:36 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: scrapedape wrote: markc wrote: Not agreeing means the climber is off belay. You're cool with that? I don't think that's what the belayer meant when he said that he "reluctantly agreed." Obviously he is going to keep the guy on belay. In saying that he "reluctantly agreed," the belayer is implying the the leader sought his approval to catch a deliberate fall, and he gave this approval. What alternative is there? How about, "Dude, don't be a fucking idiot." " I'm fucking serious. Don't do it. You want to walk home? You want to climb again?" you never done anything like this ? EVER ?
Like what?
Practice falls?
Displayed poor judgment generally?
Called a partner a fucking idiot when he was being a fucking idiot?
Been called an idiot?
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pfwein
May 7, 2009, 9:14 PM
Post #77 of 88
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Registered: Feb 8, 2009
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Thanks for the laughs everyone. Only on this website can a story about an unusually dumb accident morph/degenerate into an apparently serious discussion about whether a belayer should take a climber off belay in protest to something dumb the climber is planning to do. I'm not the smartest guy in the world and some of the people I've climbed with haven't been either, but this stuff is comedy gold!
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theguy
May 7, 2009, 9:36 PM
Post #78 of 88
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Registered: Aug 14, 2004
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k.l.k wrote: who would just go out and stand in the shooting-gallery couloir to see if their helmet could turn a falling rock? Who is going to huck a volunteer lob on ledgy ground just to see what would happen if their gear pulled?
Excellent question: I've really been enjoying Nitro Circus, brought to you by some of the same fine folks who brought you Jackass.
Perhaps co-incidentally, they're based in Utah, home to much good climbing, Mormons, and Camhead's parents.
As for the OP, next time you or someone you know has a tragic climbing accident, you'll know to post in I&A, which has a much more aggressive moderation policy, and consequently less flaming.
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k.l.k
May 8, 2009, 3:23 AM
Post #83 of 88
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ryanb wrote: I agree that practice falls on ledgy terrain are stupid. But I strongly disagree with the personal attacks on this thread from "experienced" climbers. . . . If an accident report is posted on this site the responses seem to fit into too catagories "traggic reminder" or "stupid n00b." I think that we would all be safer and better off if we view all accidents, no matter how inane as the former. . . . by concentrating on the dangers of practice falls and personal attacks on n00bs I think lots of posters on this thread are missing the warning about the dangers of low angle climbing in general and the importance of self rescue and first aid skills.
Ryan-- Yes, I don't like to see flames in accident threads, and I'm not sure why this didn't get quickly transferred to I & A where the modding is stricter. Nor would I like to see this incident dismissed as "n00b fuckup." And yes, many of us frequently put ourselves in harm's way on dicey low-angle leads (or traverses).
But I do see this incident as another example of an entirely new type of accident, one I'd not seen before I began to visit this site regularly: Victory or practice whipper gone bad.
This is a category of "accident" that simply didn't exist for roughly the first century-and-a-half of serious mountaineering and technical rock climbing. It gives us an entirely new-- and clearly avoidable --hazard that may eventually impact the rest of us through liability and access issues.
My first bad fall was as a n00b on a slab climb, so I have a deep and physical appreciation of the mysteries of slab climbing and the dangers of life as a n00b The number of skilled and experienced friends I've lost to stupid accidents is a constant reminder that folks who know should know better, sometimes don't.
But I do beat a couple of drums here, and one is that it is dangerous for inexperienced folks to huck volunteer lobs on "trad" gear and terrain.
If you have spent your hours aid climbing and learning how unpredictable real gear and rock can be; if you have spent a few seasons taking your unexpected and dangerous n00b whippers on real climbs; and if you have survived your time in the n00b danger zone and reached a point at which you are trying to push serious numbers and sequences on the Big Stone or some other appropriate setting; --then you may be in one of those situations in which it is appropriate to huck a few volunteer lobs on gear. Until then, don't do it.
Again, this should be in I & E. And I do wish the best to both the poor guy who suffered the spinal injury and his partner.
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wonderwoman
May 8, 2009, 3:49 AM
Post #84 of 88
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Registered: Dec 14, 2002
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First order of business:
This has been moved to A & I, which means:
This forum is reserved for polite discussion of specific accidents. Please keep posts on subject and respectful of both the people involved and other users.
Please keep it civil and try to remember that there is a real person who got seriously hurt here.
I'll be 'hiding' some of these posts.
In the meantime, here is to a speedy recovery to the climber.
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ryanb
May 8, 2009, 4:42 AM
Post #85 of 88
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Registered: Nov 4, 2004
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k.l.k wrote: ... But I do see this incident as another example of an entirely new type of accident, one I'd not seen before I began to visit this site regularly: Victory or practice whipper gone bad. This is a category of "accident" that simply didn't exist for roughly the first century-and-a-half of serious mountaineering and technical rock climbing. It gives us an entirely new-- and clearly avoidable --hazard that may eventually impact the rest of us through liability and access issues. ... If you have spent your hours aid climbing and learning how unpredictable real gear and rock can be; if you have spent a few seasons taking your unexpected and dangerous n00b whippers on real climbs; and if you have survived your time in the n00b danger zone and reached a point at which you are trying to push serious numbers and sequences on the Big Stone or some other appropriate setting; --then you may be in one of those situations in which it is appropriate to huck a few volunteer lobs on gear. Until then, don't do it. ...
These are excellent points, and when you put it this way I fully agree... there have been several similar accidents and the practice of taking practice falls is one worth cautioning against (Incidentally I think its popularity stems partly from "the rock warriors way" which is heavily promoted on this site?).
I would like to add "learn to keep your legs free of the damn rope and stay upright" to the list of things a new climber should do before even considering taking a lead fall.
This is the one thing I see fucked up the most, particularly on crack climbs and by leaders who don't regularly fall. If you are above gear with your leg fully behind the rope you are soloing...a fall will flip you over and slam your head into the rock.
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pindude
May 8, 2009, 6:36 AM
Post #86 of 88
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Registered: Sep 25, 2002
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I’m glad the climber’s injuries are not more severe, and I wish him a quick and complete recovery. May he get back on rock soon, and have a full, enriching life of climbing. Special thanks to Jeff for his quick, cool actions.
I’ve read this thread with interest. I helped my regular climbing partner establish the route the climber fell on, which is one of two routes: either Tar Babies or the route to the right of it. Looking at the rescuer’s photos, I initially thought the route the climber had been on was Tar Babies, and was quoted as such. For those that climb at Minne and don’t know, Tar Babies is near the center of the Main Face, just right of the mixed trad/2-bolt climb Star Babies. I’ll confirm, but after talking to the climbers and reviewing the photos, I now think they were on the next climb to the right: Norma Jean and the Oison Pivy. It’s not an easy 5.8; rather, it has at least one or two delicate, balancy moves the primary FA’er rates at 5.9 and others have said is 10a. FWIW, even Tar Babies to the left has at least one awkward, delicate 5.8 move that I definitely wouldn’t call easy.
There’s been much criticism on this thread, some if it warranted and much of it not--normal stuff for rc.com. One thing missing other than the general consensus that you shouldn’t lob onto questionable protection without bomber back-up and minimal chance of hitting something, is this: How does one learn to lead climb, and place and trust pro?
For the fledgling trad lead climber:
1. Be solid in your climbing technique on moderate climbs on TR and bouldering (up to 5.10 is good).
2. Partner up with a competent, experienced lead climber.
3. First learn to follow and clean.
4. By yourself, you can learn to place gear at the base of climbs, weighting and testing by standing on each piece w/a sling—essentially doing simple aiding. Experience what holds and what doesn’t, but go no higher than what you would comfortably fall from. Careful weighting gear near eye level so it doesn’t pop you in the face.
5. Also by yourself at ground level, learn to quickly and efficiently construct anchor systems w/ multiple pieces of pro. Get feedback from your experienced buddy.
6. Learn how to tie off your belay and exit it.
7. First trad leads: climb on routes you already have the moves wired on, and are at least 3-4 numbers below your ability level. Get feedback from your experienced buddy—obviously best if he/she can belay you and clean/follow. Move up in difficulty and grades only conservatively—there’s big differences in climbs of the same difficulty level even in the same climbing area.
Years ago we were told and would counsel others to do 50 leads on 5.4s, then 50 leads on 5.5s, then 50 leads on 5.6s, etc. Obviously you don’t need to be that conservative today, but you have to be smart. Climbing is about being honest with yourself and knowing your limits. When you’re not honest with yourself, you learn the hard way. By knowing yourself as a lead climber, you can and will push beyond limits you may not have initially realized you could have pushed past, and you’ll have a lifetime of rewarding and fulfilling experiences.
--Steve Reynolds
(This post was edited by pindude on May 8, 2009, 6:38 AM)
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blitzie
May 17, 2009, 10:24 PM
Post #87 of 88
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Registered: May 17, 2009
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Thank you for sharing - ignore the mean words of the others. It is more important for us all to think thru what happened to you and your partner (and Woody and Todd too). I think you did a great job responding to the situation.
My friends and I started aid climbing so we could test how our protection works - that helped us alot.
Duct tape and your tee shirt are the most important first aid supplies you can carry. Sterile dressings are a weird concept. The things we carry in our back packs get bumped around and packaging is easily violated. All our wounds are dirty in the field and will need to be addressed as such in the ER.
I think it's easy for us Northerners to be lulled by the gym climbing experience. Is it OK to take a good whipper on purpose? I belayed the regional finals event for the girls 15-17yrs rope climbing comp last year and caught at 15 to 20 girls ranging 100-150 pounds on short falls on same rope. I hoped they retired that rope at the end of the day - I should have taken the rag home as a souvenier and woven it into a door mat. I wouldn't treat my own rope that way!
Alisa
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applewood
Apr 29, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #88 of 88
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Registered: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 14
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Steve, helpful, constructive post, in this interesting thread.
I especially agree with the part about learning to trad climb way below your limit, and climbing LOTS in the 5.3-5.7 range, gradually working your way up. This was the norm in the pre-bolt days. Unfortunately now a days there are less and less routes being established or climbed in the lower ranges at the crags. All too often I see recent grading to have no discernment of how to grade the easier routes. For instance at a local crag there is a "5.5" bolted line, that is more like 5.1 to me. There are also many new 5.7 & 8's that are really more like 5.4. It seems we have forgotten or never appreciated how hard a good 5.4 can be. For this reason alone it's worth it to pilgrimage to the Gunks at least once and climb routes such as - GELSA (5.4 ***), where I just had to keep repeating to myself, "it's only 5.4" as I led the long vertical 2nd pitch, and YELLOW RIDGE (5.7- ***), I'd never heard of a 7 minus before, although it felt like a 9!, and of course HIGH EXPOSURE (5.6 ***), after which you'll never look at 5.6's the same again.
When I look back on my experiences learning to lead in the mid 70's I'm sure I did stupid stuff like practice dropping onto gear (then having a hell of a time removing it!), but that was mostly when I was really inexperienced and climbing in isolation. Once I got involved with others and heard of their experiences such naive thinking was easier to leave behind. We're fortunate today with the internet, and lots of books and magazines. But we're less fortunate with the advances in gear (bolts especially) that give a sense of security (and possibly blind us to other factors such as rope stretch and slack and ledges, and back up knots and weather). In the 70's where I learned to climb (doing lots and lots of those 5.5's and 6's) the axiom was "the leader never falls", and I can tell you no one wanted to in swami belts! But while I got confident setting up anchors (and removing placements) in those old days and ways, I also never got very good at actually climbing until bolts came alone.
Now my main goal is to find the perfect 5.4 to create. My joy this spring was to bolt a couple of three star 5.2 and 5.3's - somehow much more satisfying than the three star 11b I put up too. (and those fully bolted 5.2 and 3 routes also had some possible gear placements which would be good for a beginner leader to practice on within the security of a bolted route. It sounds silly perhaps and redundant, but we all have to learn somewhere, and if it's my daughter learning out on the sharp end I don't want her taking a ground fall.
Finally my condolences to both the climbers. Hopefully their injuries and traumas have healed by now, and the lessons learned have become second nature. Thanks to Jeff for sharing the details, and showing how to do it right (and be prepared even at a small local crag).
(This post was edited by applewood on May 3, 2012, 2:12 PM)
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