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Partner angry


May 12, 2009, 4:29 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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I think .4 (yellow alien) is the first cam I doubled up on. To be fair though, I also doubled up on 2.5 friend the same day.


Pizzafarno


May 13, 2009, 9:36 AM
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Re:Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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i went ahead and bought 4 small TCU's and another #1 metolius, used, for a good deal. That should cover everything, correct?


(This post was edited by Pizzafarno on May 13, 2009, 9:37 AM)


the_climber


May 13, 2009, 10:40 AM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Re:Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Sounds about right.


rtwilli4


May 15, 2009, 9:16 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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I'm just starting to climb more trad, and building a rack. I placed a purple TCU once the other day and a .3 C4 a few times. Not sure if the TCU would have held a fall but it was placed well, and the only option I had to protect a small roof. I've also placed a few small aliens.


rtwilli4


May 15, 2009, 9:24 PM
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Re: [Terry2124] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Terry2124 wrote:
Pizzafarno wrote:
Hey all-
Im new to climbing and have just started to buy gear. Im focusing on cams right now. Right now i have BD camalot c4 - #.5-#4. Do i need the smaller ones, for example, the BD camalot c3's? Or maybe just smaller c4's? Are they truly necessary? Or micronuts to make up for it?
Thanks!

background- i climb in Tahoe and Yosemite, CA-all granite .

Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?

I've seen a 200# guy take a 20 footer on a #2 stopper.


Jnclk


May 18, 2009, 5:18 AM
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Re: [Terry2124] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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"Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?"
That is not true. Only the smallest sizes of micros are intended for aid only.


(This post was edited by Jnclk on May 18, 2009, 5:19 AM)


the_climber


May 18, 2009, 9:29 AM
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Re: [Jnclk] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Micro anything can be used to protect free climbing. As with all gear you must know the limitations of the gear, and the placement. Micro nuts/cam/pitons are used to protect short sections, and when nested together sometimes long sections of trad routes. If it is something that can check a slip, and gives one the confidence to move through a section then it was worth hauling them up there wasn't it. Micros are also quite usefull for providing opposition to keep another nut inplace. They can sometimes hold big falls, that said anytime you expect heroics from your gear... you're likely hanging it out there more than you intended.


As for micros holding... I'd trust a micro nut in a marginal placement more than a micro cam.


chrisJoosse


Jun 18, 2009, 6:34 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Pizzafarno wrote:
Do i need the smaller ones, for example, the BD camalot c3's? Or maybe just smaller c4's? Are they truly necessary?

No, but they can be very convenient when there's a thin placement right next to your splitter-crack and you want to save your C4 [5|.75|1|2]s for later.

I use my C3 1 and 2 pretty regularly- I find them to be very convenient when building an anchor and I want a backing piece in a separate crack from my main (bigger) pieces- often there's a nearby smaller crack I can plug one of these into. (background- I climb a bunch on granite- mine's in Index).

Nuts are definitely cheaper and in many cases are just as good or better, but man, cams are nice.


billcoe_


Jun 18, 2009, 9:11 PM
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Re: [chrisJoosse] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Just reread the Angry, Brutus and Clint Cummins posts and you'll do fine if you follow there advice. If you have a lot of money of course, then go for it anyway.


rtwilli4


Jun 18, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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I'm not sure what everyone else said but I still consider myself a beginner on gear (probably only lead 30 or 40 pitches) and I have only placed a cam smaller than a .3 C4 a few times. I have placed EXACTLY ONE purple TCU and probably two blue TCU's (just a tad bit smaller that a .3). I place the Yellow and Orange ones (equivalent to a .4 C4) a whole lot though, and like having C4's down to .3 and TCU's down to blue. That gives you "doubles" without actually having two of each cam.

I am still building my rack and with all the bullshit going on w/ CCH I will probably end up doubling up on bigger stuff before I buy anything smaller than a .3 C4 or a Blue TCU.

I think you should have at least a .3 to start, but below that you are looking at cams that have to be placed very well to actually hold a leader fall, and they all get pretty expensive. Not to mention the current shake up in the small cam market, with Mastercams recently coming out and CCH up in the air.

Nuts are not ever really replacements for cams. You should be placing nuts whenever you can and use cams when nothing else will work. A lot of people actually use cams as a replacement for passive gear but if you ask me that's not really the way it should work.

The smaller micronuts probably aren't going to do much for your leader falls either. Some people might argue with me here, but I hope to never be in the habit of trusting my life to a nut that is rated to 2 or 3 kN or even 5 for that matter.


petsfed


Jun 18, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Re: [rtwilli4] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm not sure what everyone else said but I still consider myself a beginner on gear (probably only lead 30 or 40 pitches) and I have only placed a cam smaller than a .3 C4 a few times. I have placed EXACTLY ONE purple TCU and probably two blue TCU's (just a tad bit smaller that a .3). I place the Yellow and Orange ones (equivalent to a .4 C4) a whole lot though, and like having C4's down to .3 and TCU's down to blue. That gives you "doubles" without actually having two of each cam.

I am still building my rack and with all the bullshit going on w/ CCH I will probably end up doubling up on bigger stuff before I buy anything smaller than a .3 C4 or a Blue TCU.

I think you should have at least a .3 to start, but below that you are looking at cams that have to be placed very well to actually hold a leader fall, and they all get pretty expensive. Not to mention the current shake up in the small cam market, with Mastercams recently coming out and CCH up in the air.

Nuts are not ever really replacements for cams. You should be placing nuts whenever you can and use cams when nothing else will work. A lot of people actually use cams as a replacement for passive gear but if you ask me that's not really the way it should work.

The smaller micronuts probably aren't going to do much for your leader falls either. Some people might argue with me here, but I hope to never be in the habit of trusting my life to a nut that is rated to 2 or 3 kN or even 5 for that matter.

First, anything south of a .5 C4 is really too wide to be useful in many situations. Some would say anything smaller than a 1 C4 is too wide, but this isn't the place for splitting hairs like that. I encounter the need for small cams every time I go climbing. But then, I climb in an area that's predominantly cracks. If its traditionally protected face climbing, you might be able to get away without small cams. If its all crack climbing, no such luck.

Second, I don't think there's been much of a shakeup in the small cam market, at least not so recent that you should be in wait-and-see mode. C3s and Mastercams came out about the same time, about 2 years after the Zeroes. Reviews have come in on all three, and it really comes down to preference between Mastercams and Zeroes for the most part, with C3s being something of a specialty piece for most. Its unfortunate that CCH is so unreliable, because there really isn't much comparison between them and any other small cam, but that's also a discussion for another time.

The reason you want small cams specifically is because they universally have a narrow headwidth. You might've noticed, but a #2 camalot width crack is rarely so shallow that it won't take the came. When you're tossing cams into pin scars though, it becomes an issue. That's also why, unless I know I'll need a 4th piece in that size, my C4s smaller than .5 stay in the pack. I have better cams for those sizes.


rtwilli4


Jun 19, 2009, 4:01 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm not sure what everyone else said but I still consider myself a beginner on gear (probably only lead 30 or 40 pitches) and I have only placed a cam smaller than a .3 C4 a few times. I have placed EXACTLY ONE purple TCU and probably two blue TCU's (just a tad bit smaller that a .3). I place the Yellow and Orange ones (equivalent to a .4 C4) a whole lot though, and like having C4's down to .3 and TCU's down to blue. That gives you "doubles" without actually having two of each cam.

I am still building my rack and with all the bullshit going on w/ CCH I will probably end up doubling up on bigger stuff before I buy anything smaller than a .3 C4 or a Blue TCU.

I think you should have at least a .3 to start, but below that you are looking at cams that have to be placed very well to actually hold a leader fall, and they all get pretty expensive. Not to mention the current shake up in the small cam market, with Mastercams recently coming out and CCH up in the air.

Nuts are not ever really replacements for cams. You should be placing nuts whenever you can and use cams when nothing else will work. A lot of people actually use cams as a replacement for passive gear but if you ask me that's not really the way it should work.

The smaller micronuts probably aren't going to do much for your leader falls either. Some people might argue with me here, but I hope to never be in the habit of trusting my life to a nut that is rated to 2 or 3 kN or even 5 for that matter.


Second, I don't think there's been much of a shakeup in the small cam market, at least not so recent that you should be in wait-and-see mode. C3s and Mastercams came out about the same time, about 2 years after the Zeroes. Reviews have come in on all three, and it really comes down to preference between Mastercams and Zeroes for the most part, with C3s being something of a specialty piece for most. Its unfortunate that CCH is so unreliable, because there really isn't much comparison between them and any other small cam, but that's also a discussion for another time.

yea, AS I was typing that I knew that I wasn't really correct. I'm just kind of bummed about CCH.


wallwombat


Aug 5, 2009, 2:14 AM
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Re: [Jnclk] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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"Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?"

Well, if anyone is interested in visiting Arapiles they should get there head around using micro nuts. You will feel pretty strung out there, without your RPs.


dhorgan


Aug 5, 2009, 1:35 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
That said, I'd pick up a .4 C4 or a yellow alien or equivalent when you've got the money and the presence of mind to do so. Its a handy piece and you'll use it a ton more than you might think. Its the first fingers size I doubled up on.

I'd second that: I bought a .4 C4 about a year ago and like it more and more every time I go out. To me, it has nicer action than the C3's (I think the biggest C3 is similar in size to a .4 C4). But I'm in the Gunks, and there's a ton of placements in the Gunks wide enough to accept a .4 C4. This might not be true in the OP's area where come kind of 3-cam unit might work better. Regional differences are key for all gear, but maybe especially so for small gear.

One poster above was talking about the Peanuts working well in California, but I haven't had much luck with 'em in New Paltz (although I've had incredible luck with larger offset nuts, namely HB Offsets). The Gunks seem to like straight-sided micros better, but I'm still a relative newcomer to the black art of micro nuts, generally favoring the "I think I'll just run it out to that Green Cam placement up there and not dick around with these metal shavings down here" approach up to now. Sometimes metal shavings are all you're going to get, though.


bennydh


Aug 5, 2009, 1:50 PM
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Re: [dhorgan] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Wild Country Zeros, Black Diamond Micro Nuts, and small Metolius tcus. All of them have served me well on california granite. I've taken whips on all of them. Caught a partners 30 footer on a Wild Country Zero 3, and taken a couple good falls on my micro nuts cringing as I wondered if the piece would hold. They are bomber.

I've never climbed on aliens, and I don't like the small BD sizes. That is strictly preference on the BDs and fear of reputation on the aliens.


chrisJoosse


Aug 6, 2009, 3:07 PM
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Re: [dhorgan] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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dhorgan wrote:
petsfed wrote:
That said, I'd pick up a .4 C4 or a yellow alien or equivalent when you've got the money and the presence of mind to do so. Its a handy piece and you'll use it a ton more than you might think. Its the first fingers size I doubled up on.

I'd second that: I bought a .4 C4 about a year ago and like it more and more every time I go out. To me, it has nicer action than the C3's (I think the biggest C3 is similar in size to a .4 C4).

Actually, the biggest C3 (yellow #2) only overlaps the low end of the .4 C4 range- the two are complementary, but not equivalent. The .4 bridges the range gap between the yellow C3 and the .5 (purple) C4. (the yellow C3 starts to tip out right where the purple (.5) C4 is too big to place). I had figured that the difference between the .4 and .5 would be insignificant, but that .4 is perfect finger-width, and is probably one of the most-used pieces on my rack now.


seatbeltpants


Aug 6, 2009, 7:37 PM
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Re: [wallwombat] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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wallwombat wrote:
"Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?"

Well, if anyone is interested in visiting Arapiles they should get there head around using micro nuts. You will feel pretty strung out there, without your RPs.

thanks for that heads-up - i'm looking at joining a group of guys who are heading across the ditch in a few months and i'll make sure everyone bears this in mind.

steve


takanhase


Aug 6, 2009, 7:47 PM
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Re: [seatbeltpants] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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I feel there is a time and a place for small cams and other times where I can fit in a nut and feel much better about my situation. I do use both but also have never purchased micro nuts as some of the ones I have purchased are are already as thin as a quarter and have not found a use for anything smaller.


coolcat83


Aug 6, 2009, 8:19 PM
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Re: [dhorgan] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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dhorgan wrote:
petsfed wrote:
That said, I'd pick up a .4 C4 or a yellow alien or equivalent when you've got the money and the presence of mind to do so. Its a handy piece and you'll use it a ton more than you might think. Its the first fingers size I doubled up on.

I'd second that: I bought a .4 C4 about a year ago and like it more and more every time I go out. To me, it has nicer action than the C3's (I think the biggest C3 is similar in size to a .4 C4). But I'm in the Gunks, and there's a ton of placements in the Gunks wide enough to accept a .4 C4. This might not be true in the OP's area where come kind of 3-cam unit might work better. Regional differences are key for all gear, but maybe especially so for small gear.

One poster above was talking about the Peanuts working well in California, but I haven't had much luck with 'em in New Paltz (although I've had incredible luck with larger offset nuts, namely HB Offsets). The Gunks seem to like straight-sided micros better, but I'm still a relative newcomer to the black art of micro nuts, generally favoring the "I think I'll just run it out to that Green Cam placement up there and not dick around with these metal shavings down here" approach up to now. Sometimes metal shavings are all you're going to get, though.

I have a #5 ballnut i got on sale that get's use almost every time I go up to the gunks, never fallen on it though, my seconds really love having to clean it as isTongue

Like you I also find that most of the time I can fit a wider cam in, for example a yellow metolius fcu and a #2 c3 are about the same size, most of the time it's just what my hand finds first as to what I'll place unless there's a stem placement issue.


msweet1985


Aug 7, 2009, 9:57 PM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
i really, really like the metolius tcu's as small units, overthing from 00 up to 4 are beautiful tools that i love placing, and of course everyone creams their pants about aliens though i don't have any because i'm not that cool. camalots for the mid range up to a 4 as you have.

sounds like me. tons of metolius small cams but not coom enough for the CCH hardwear


petsfed


Aug 10, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: [chrisJoosse] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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chrisJoosse wrote:
I had figured that the difference between the .4 and .5 would be insignificant, but that .4 is perfect finger-width, and is probably one of the most-used pieces on my rack now.

So long as I have the red zero and the yellow Alien, I don't use the .4 that much. Still, it is a very useful size. I just have better units in the same size.


phillygoat


Aug 10, 2009, 10:42 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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coolcat83 wrote:
I have a #5 ballnut i got on sale that get's use almost every time I go up to the gunks, never fallen on it though, my seconds really love having to clean it as isTongue

I'd rather fall on a #4/#5 BallNut than the respective black/blue Alien or grey/purple Metolius (most of the time).


coolcat83


Aug 10, 2009, 12:40 PM
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Re: [phillygoat] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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phillygoat wrote:
coolcat83 wrote:
I have a #5 ballnut i got on sale that get's use almost every time I go up to the gunks, never fallen on it though, my seconds really love having to clean it as isTongue

I'd rather fall on a #4/#5 BallNut than the respective black/blue Alien or grey/purple Metolius (most of the time).

I'd agree most of the time, I've placed my share of "psychological pro" purple tcu's in pebbly gunks horizontals, where shifting those lobes a bit makes the cam useless but a ballnut has a little play.

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