|
onceahardman
May 20, 2009, 5:55 PM
Post #1 of 77
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
Seeing some of the threads asking about how to mix in weight training and climbing get my head spinning sometimes. If you enjoy weight training, or wish to use it to avoid injury, GREAT!
Other than avoiding injury, there is little evidence to support weightlifting really increasing your difficulty level, unless you are rehabilitating an injury.
Anyway, I thought of this analogy:
Gym climbing is to rock climbing,
as Tae-bo is to martial arts.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
May 20, 2009, 6:24 PM
Post #2 of 77
(7443 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
That reminds me of a story.
2 weeks ago I was dossing about at the Lazy Lizard hostel in Moab wearing my "Trad is Rad" T-shirt*, with "Yo mama's a sport climber" on the back, when someone asked me "What is 'trad' anyways?"
So I explained the different between trad and sport, and his reply was...
"Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??"
*http://www.tradisrad.com
|
|
|
|
|
fresh
May 20, 2009, 7:38 PM
Post #4 of 77
(7387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2007
Posts: 1199
|
sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" 
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
May 20, 2009, 8:19 PM
Post #5 of 77
(7362 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
fresh wrote: sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" T-ball where all the players are way better than the pros
Spoken like a t-ball player
You think that because you hit .900 in t-ball (or climb 5.13 sport), that you are "better".
Yet you fail to recognize you are really playing a different (and easier) game.
|
|
|
|
|
Johnny_Fang
May 20, 2009, 8:40 PM
Post #6 of 77
(7332 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2006
Posts: 289
|
ah, the human ego and its need to believe itself better than others.
that said, trad is way better.
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
May 20, 2009, 8:55 PM
Post #7 of 77
(7318 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
Johnny, I'm really comfortable knowing I'm no better than anybody.
In fact, I climb sport sometimes, and enjoy it when I do.
My original point was gym climbing, and what I see as an analogy to Tae Bo...good for training, nothing really wrong with it, but if you think you are doing the real thing, you are setting yourself up to get your ass kicked.
|
|
|
|
|
DexterRutecki
May 20, 2009, 11:40 PM
Post #8 of 77
(7264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2008
Posts: 92
|
Yeah gym climbers are suuuuch losers. God forbid people that don't live next door to a CLIFF go to a cool place where they can easily climb in a safe environment.
And wait a second...you are inferring that climbing up a man made wall with plastic holds screwed into it with a roof over your head is different than going to a mountain made of rock and placing nuts and cams into cracks and climbing hundreds of feet up?
The negativity on this site never ceases to amaze me, and I haven't even been reading it that long.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
May 21, 2009, 4:30 AM
Post #10 of 77
(7194 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
DexterRutecki wrote: Yeah gym climbers are suuuuch losers. God forbid people that don't live next door to a CLIFF go to a cool place where they can easily climb in a safe environment. And wait a second...you are inferring that climbing up a man made wall with plastic holds screwed into it with a roof over your head is different than going to a mountain made of rock and placing nuts and cams into cracks and climbing hundreds of feet up? The negativity on this site never ceases to amaze me, and I haven't even been reading it that long.
Well now that was positive.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
May 21, 2009, 6:14 AM
Post #11 of 77
(7165 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
DexterRutecki wrote: I haven't even been reading it that long.
"cool" "easily" "safe environment"... I think you nailed why gyms suck in a single sentence.
|
|
|
|
|
DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 6:18 AM
Post #12 of 77
(7160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2008
Posts: 92
|
I find both indoor and outdoor climbing to be fun. Bummer for you that you don't.
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
May 21, 2009, 6:34 AM
Post #13 of 77
(7155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill.
|
|
|
|
|
i_h8_choss
May 21, 2009, 6:36 AM
Post #14 of 77
(7155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 694
|
DexterRutecki wrote: I find both indoor and outdoor climbing to be fun. Bummer for you that you don't.
The gym may be a good place to get started at, or climb at when its snowing or raining, but c'mon....how long do you want try someone's new one pitch routes on plastic? Wouldn't routes in Yosemite, JTree, Moab, Thailand, or your local crags hard climbs be a better goal? I have never climbed in a gym and I dont plan on doing it soon. But if you live in a US city, chances are there is a decent crag a half days drive away. Climbing outside is like multiple orgasms as is Climbing at gyms is like Whiskey dick.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
May 21, 2009, 7:00 AM
Post #15 of 77
(7149 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
hafilax wrote: Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill.
Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill with three other people.
|
|
|
|
|
meahtots
May 21, 2009, 7:11 AM
Post #16 of 77
(7145 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2008
Posts: 105
|
DexterRutecki wrote: Yeah gym climbers are suuuuch losers. God forbid people that don't live next door to a CLIFF go to a cool place where they can easily climb in a safe environment. And wait a second...you are inferring that climbing up a man made wall with plastic holds screwed into it with a roof over your head is different than going to a mountain made of rock and placing nuts and cams into cracks and climbing hundreds of feet up? The negativity on this site never ceases to amaze me, and I haven't even been reading it that long.
gym climbing=less risk
tae-bo=less risk
i don't think onceahardman was bashing on the lack of merit in gym climbing, just commenting on its ease of access and watered down danger.
also, whats up with the full page adverts when you try to post a reply?
|
|
|
|
|
DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 7:12 AM
Post #17 of 77
(7145 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2008
Posts: 92
|
i_h8_choss wrote: The gym may be a good place to get started at, or climb at when its snowing or raining, but c'mon....how long do you want try someone's new one pitch routes on plastic? Wouldn't routes in Yosemite, JTree, Moab, Thailand, or your local crags hard climbs be a better goal? I have never climbed in a gym and I dont plan on doing it soon. But if you live in a US city, chances are there is a decent crag a half days drive away. Climbing outside is like multiple orgasms as is Climbing at gyms is like Whiskey dick.
They're different things. I don't think I disagree with you altogether though. Climbing outdoors is "the real thing", and much more fun. You're in a scenic location, outdoors, battling "real rock" that ended up the way it did thanks to mother nature.
I'm a 9-5er though. I get weekends and my vacation. When I get to the gym, I see friends I know (and in my experience, rock gyms are much less impersonal than your typical Gold's), and get a good workout. As soon as I get there, I usually forget whatever else is going on in my life and de-stress. New routes are set, and I can always find something that challenges me. I have fun. So I don't know why so many people on the site make it a point to shit on gym climbing or gym climbers. My only conclusion is that it's some sort of elitist thing.
If I had my choice, I'd have no job, and could climb (and ski, other hobby) wherever and whenever I wanted. Next to that, it would be awesome if I lived 30 minutes to an hour from good climbing and could be up on a route after work if I wanted. But, I don't. But I'll tell you what - I'm really stoked that I now live in the Bay Area in California, there are at least 5 good rock gyms around me, and I'm within a half day's drive from some of the best climbing spots in the world. I grew up in a boring part of Pennsylvania, and the nearest climbing gym from my hometown is over an hour away. I probably never would have gotten into the sport living there. That's the best way I could explain why I hate to see people bashing something that I thoroughy enjoy, and consider myself lucky to have access to in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
fresh
May 21, 2009, 1:58 PM
Post #18 of 77
(7096 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2007
Posts: 1199
|
onceahardman wrote: fresh wrote: sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" T-ball where all the players are way better than the pros Spoken like a t-ball player You think that because you hit .900 in t-ball (or climb 5.13 sport), that you are "better". Yet you fail to recognize you are really playing a different (and easier) game.
but if sport is easier, then trad climbers should be able to adjust to hard sport more quickly than sport climbers adjust to hard trad.
do they?
(I dunno.)
that said I much prefer trad.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
May 21, 2009, 2:23 PM
Post #19 of 77
(7078 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
fresh wrote: onceahardman wrote: fresh wrote: sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" T-ball where all the players are way better than the pros Spoken like a t-ball player You think that because you hit .900 in t-ball (or climb 5.13 sport), that you are "better". Yet you fail to recognize you are really playing a different (and easier) game. absolutely agree that they're just different games, somewhat apples and oranges. but if sport is easier, then trad climbers should be able to adjust to hard sport more quickly than sport climbers adjust to hard trad. do they? (I dunno.) that said I much prefer trad.
I think so. This goes back to the oft-debated which do you climb harder: trad or sport? With a few exceptions, I pretty sure most climb harder sport grades than trad grades. And because sport requires less gear and more likely bomber placements (i.e. - bolts vs. the sketchy blue alien), I would think that trad climbers find it much easier to transition to sport than the other way around.
A very simplistic anecdotal point is that I have a friend who can on any given day onsight in the 12s sport. However, he hasn't trad climbed in a couple of years. He was planning to meet me in the 'Gunks this coming weekend, and wanted to stay at 5.7 and below just because he knew his head would be weaker while placing gear.
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 4:40 PM
Post #20 of 77
(7042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
DexterRutecki wrote: Yeah gym climbers are suuuuch losers. God forbid people that don't live next door to a CLIFF go to a cool place where they can easily climb in a safe environment. And wait a second...you are inferring that climbing up a man made wall with plastic holds screwed into it with a roof over your head is different than going to a mountain made of rock and placing nuts and cams into cracks and climbing hundreds of feet up? The negativity on this site never ceases to amaze me, and I haven't even been reading it that long.
Dexter, I'm glad you moderated your position a bit with your post a few posts down. If you read what I actually wrote, I didn't make any personal slams about gym climbers, or say gym climbing isn't fun. I did say "there isn't anything wrong with it".
But it's not rock climbing. It's training.
I suppose there are some people who view gym climbing as an end in itself, rather than a means to better movement on rock. Nothing wrong with that either.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen "5.12" indoor climbers, way strong, sketch like crazy on a 5.7 outdoors. It's interesting to see a "gym climber" try to do 5.12 face moves to avoid jamming a 5.8 jamcrack.
So, I think my point stands. Nothing wrong with doing Tae-bo. Just don't think it's going to improve your defensive skills.
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
May 21, 2009, 4:54 PM
Post #21 of 77
(7015 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
healyje wrote: hafilax wrote: Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill. Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill with three other people.
Too bad those 3 people will be the one's setting outdoor standards for the next 2 decades. As cool as trad climbing is and as "lame" as gym climbing might be, the skill and strength transfer sets up gymbies for crushing. You can't say the same for years and years of trad. Sorry.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
May 21, 2009, 4:56 PM
Post #22 of 77
(7014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I do believe that with enough climbing outdoors that gym climbing can effectively help you improve. If you never (or rarely) climb outdoors, it won't. The idea is to build strength on a solid base of skills. Without climbing outdoors, your base of skills ends up lacking and you've only built strength.
Usually you can unlearn the plastic moves and get the strength to help on real rock but it's less efficient than learning to move outside and getting strong inside.
I am not a martial artist but I don't think Tae Bo would help you fight in any way really.
What i don't get though, is that you start your post talking about the efficacy (or lack of) of weight training then make the analogy to a non weight training activity. Kinda hard to follow.
(This post was edited by angry on May 21, 2009, 4:58 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 5:06 PM
Post #23 of 77
(7000 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
fresh wrote: onceahardman wrote: fresh wrote: sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" T-ball where all the players are way better than the pros Spoken like a t-ball player You think that because you hit .900 in t-ball (or climb 5.13 sport), that you are "better". Yet you fail to recognize you are really playing a different (and easier) game. absolutely agree that they're just different games, somewhat apples and oranges. but if sport is easier, then trad climbers should be able to adjust to hard sport more quickly than sport climbers adjust to hard trad. do they? (I dunno.) that said I much prefer trad.
Hi fresh...
I think sport removes (or greatly reduces) the factor of "risk" in rock climbing.
The lack of risk is what makes it "easier". Clearly, the movements are as, or more, difficult.
The evidence for sport being "easier", I think, lies in the fact that it is much more common to find 5.12+ routes in the sport realm, rather than the traditional realm. It's easier to clip bolts on difficult terrain, rather than fiddling with gear. I don't think that's exactly rocket science.
|
|
|
|
|
Johnny_Fang
May 21, 2009, 5:10 PM
Post #24 of 77
(6994 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2006
Posts: 289
|
Of course, trad climbing outside is poor practice for the real sport, which is overhanging gym climbing. I'd love to get some traddie that regularly leads 5.11 slab, but has never climbed in a gym, on an overhanging gym climb. I'm betting 10b would be the max.
Trad is to gym climbing as a feral housecat is to the tiger that attacked Sigfried. Or was it Roy?
I'm just being a smartass. Trad is rad. This whole argument is stupid and based solely upon what you are determining is the "real" sport worth "training" for. Sometimes I'm angry at myself for wasting my time on this forum, but I guess it's better than finishing my dissertation. Back to work.
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 5:11 PM
Post #25 of 77
(6991 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
angry wrote: I do believe that with enough climbing outdoors that gym climbing can effectively help you improve. If you never (or rarely) climb outdoors, it won't. The idea is to build strength on a solid base of skills. Without climbing outdoors, your base of skills ends up lacking and you've only built strength. Usually you can unlearn the plastic moves and get the strength to help on real rock but it's less efficient than learning to move outside and getting strong inside. I am not a martial artist but I don't think Tae Bo would help you fight in any way really. What i don't get though, is that you start your post talking about the efficacy (or lack of) of weight training then make the analogy to a non weight training activity. Kinda hard to follow.
I agree entirely, especially the hard to follow part. The first part is really unrelated to the second. I thought of the analogy first, then got mentally sidetracked while attempting to post.
Thanks for your patience with my scatterbrained post.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on May 21, 2009, 5:25 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
