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code08
Jun 23, 2009, 1:21 AM
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I've been climbing for a while now and have started climbing some harder sport routes. While this is great I end up having to bail from a route every now and then. I understand the idea of leaving a biner on the bolt so you don't have to leave fancy quick draws up there but the cheapest biners I can find are $5-7 a pop. I was wondering if there was a cheaper option and if there isn't what is the cheapest decent biner I can lower/rap off of?
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milesenoell
Jun 23, 2009, 1:32 AM
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Quick-links from a hardware store will bring the price down a little, but can be a pain in the ass for the next climber if you can't easily clip while the link is still in place. But really, is 5 bucks that much for getting you out of danger? You really want to teach yourself the Texas rope trick while looking down at rocks, stumps and talus?
Pretty soon you'll be good enough to be collecting other peoples bail 'biners, and will be happy to leave one of those 'biners that wasn't trustworthy enough to risk a fall on. I sure as hell don't do anything else with bootied 'biners.
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2009, 2:13 AM
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stick clip aid. never left a biner yet.
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angry
Jun 23, 2009, 2:17 AM
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I don't have to leave biners either, the bolts in CO are really close to each other though.
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bill413
Jun 23, 2009, 2:26 AM
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Don't use quicklinks.
On occasion, I've bailed, then walked (or did another climb) to the top & rapped down to collect the biner.
Lowering off a bail biner is superior in safety to most of the other methods you could use.
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angry
Jun 23, 2009, 2:29 AM
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Nah, the reason not to use a quicklink is that it can load the spine of the next biner to get clipped to the bolt. A bail biner is easier to remove.
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bill413
Jun 23, 2009, 2:34 AM
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Oh, agreed Angry. I meant them to be two distinct statements.
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Carnage
Jun 23, 2009, 4:44 AM
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picked me up someone else bail biner last weekend. it was a chounard rated to 2300 KG. im pretty excited
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mounter
Jun 23, 2009, 5:14 AM
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Silly String, dental floss, and/or bailing wire.
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bill413
Jun 23, 2009, 12:38 PM
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mounter wrote: Silly String, dental floss, and/or bailing wire.
Hmmm...
- Silly string: need a good steady hand to spray it through the bolt hanger...and, if you get it on your partner, you might rap off of him/her by mistake.
- Dental Floss: need to make sure the knots are appropriate & well dressed. I've found the EDK doesn't hold in floss as well as I'd like.
- Bailing wire: Helps to carry pliers with you to make the final twist to close it.
Each of these is good, but you just have to be aware that no one way is necessarily appropriate for all situations.
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tigerlilly
Jun 23, 2009, 12:56 PM
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Well, if you don't have any luck finding booty biners, you can always watch the classifieds page on this site, cascadeclimbers.com or mountainproject.com, or hit your local gear swap if there is one. I got some old ovals and D's from a coworker who retired from climbing for practically nothing. I've seen them go for around $1-$2/each from time to time. Buy half a dozen and have a lifetime supply.
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granite_grrl
Jun 23, 2009, 2:03 PM
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There are many ways to cheat your way up a route, you need to learn some of them. That's the best way not to leave bail biners.
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jeepnphreak
Jun 23, 2009, 5:28 PM
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Go ahead and get a $5 biner that you would be willing to leave behind. If you are not too woried about weight yet pick up a steel gym biner for a few bucks. After a while you will leave a biner and find some that were left by some one else. Than that become your new bail biner. And thus the circle of life continues.
I have a great story to go with. A few years ago when I was gultiy of using quick links. I bailed on a route that had no off for a top rop. No way of rapping of the top. had to leave a quick link behind, marked with my tape configuration. three weeks later I was climbing four miles south of that area and found my quick link left on a route. claimed it back too, marking tape still in place too. But its now gone to some else now.
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steple
Jun 23, 2009, 5:58 PM
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What you want is a maillon rapide. It's about 4 bucks. Better than a cheap biner because it's locking.
http://www.peguet.fr/fr/produits/normal.html
I got one at REI recently, but it's not listed on their site.
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qtm
Jun 23, 2009, 6:07 PM
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Your "maillon rapide" is what we Americans call "quick links". You can buy them in any hardware store for about half the price of a new biner.
That said, buy a cheap biner as your bail biner. Buy used ones at swap meets. Don't use quicklinks for all the reasons mentioned above.
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alleyehave
Jun 23, 2009, 6:16 PM
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It get's real expensive when you consider that theoretically you should leave two different bail biners on two different bolts...but that's a debate for another day
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steple
Jun 23, 2009, 6:46 PM
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I don't see any safety problems with using a quick link / maillon rapide.
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hafilax
Jun 23, 2009, 6:49 PM
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steple wrote: I don't see any safety problems with using a quick link / maillon rapide.
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2009, 6:57 PM
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personally i've never had an issue removing a quick link off a route. If it's on something hard for me then i clip the draw to the bolt and clean it on the way down. i have found 4 of them total. i keep one on my harness for the unexpected but have never had to use it since there are pretty easy ways to get up a sport route out here.
i'd like to see a picture of how having a biner next to a quick link on a bolt causes the biner to be loaded funny (like angry said)
I think the 2 biners.. 2 bolts thing is a bit overkill. if you're willing to whip on that bolt you should be ok lowering off it right? i also climb in a very heavily used area so any messed up bolts are quickly reported and fixed.
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alleyehave
Jun 23, 2009, 7:22 PM
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jakedatc wrote: I think the 2 biners.. 2 bolts thing is a bit overkill. if you're willing to whip on that bolt you should be ok lowering off it right? i also climb in a very heavily used area so any messed up bolts are quickly reported and fixed.
Not saying I haven't done it, 90% of the time I bail on one biner/bolt, but your logic is flawed. The idea behind any rope system is that you have a backup. The exception being above your first piece of protection, in which case the anchor or worst case the ground is your next backup(hah!).
If i'm in a "modern" designated sport area(god I hope not), then I would bail off of one bolt/one biner(in good condition, obviously). But having to bail off of a single star-dryvin bolt is not my idea of a good time. It all reverts back to the segment of instruction that defeats most when approaching climbing concepts from a black/white perspective: common sense, or...the vague grey area. Use your head, the end.
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steple
Jun 23, 2009, 8:52 PM
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hafilax wrote: steple wrote: I don't see any safety problems with using a quick link / maillon rapide. The suck for the next person on the climb especially the ones that aren't stainless steel and rust shut.
I came across a few and I never had a problem. But maybe I was just lucky :)
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angry
Jun 23, 2009, 9:11 PM
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steple wrote: hafilax wrote: steple wrote: I don't see any safety problems with using a quick link / maillon rapide. The suck for the next person on the climb especially the ones that aren't stainless steel and rust shut. I came across a few and I never had a problem. But maybe I was just lucky :)
You're either not onsighting the route or you're ignorant of the forces that a quicklink between the rock and biner can cause. Unless the routes are dead easy, you aren't removing quicklink without hanging, even if it's not rusted shut.
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steple
Jun 23, 2009, 10:17 PM
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angry wrote: steple wrote: hafilax wrote: steple wrote: I don't see any safety problems with using a quick link / maillon rapide. The suck for the next person on the climb especially the ones that aren't stainless steel and rust shut. I came across a few and I never had a problem. But maybe I was just lucky :) You're either not onsighting the route or you're ignorant of the forces that a quicklink between the rock and biner can cause. Unless the routes are dead easy, you aren't removing quicklink without hanging, even if it's not rusted shut.
If you just place your biner below the ql?
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bill413
Jun 24, 2009, 12:54 AM
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steple wrote: angry wrote: steple wrote: hafilax wrote: steple wrote: I don't see any safety problems with using a quick link / maillon rapide. The suck for the next person on the climb especially the ones that aren't stainless steel and rust shut. I came across a few and I never had a problem. But maybe I was just lucky :) You're either not onsighting the route or you're ignorant of the forces that a quicklink between the rock and biner can cause. Unless the routes are dead easy, you aren't removing quicklink without hanging, even if it's not rusted shut. If you just place your biner below the ql?
PITA
Another thing to juggle
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mikebarter387
Jul 3, 2009, 12:53 AM
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I have to admit to leaving a few bail biners behind. When bailing from high up on a sport route and had to back clean the draws below me I was never real comfortable just being on a lone unlocking biner. Uncomfort level increased with each draw I removed. Course it would level out when I would hit the deck no matter what if for some reason that that biner opened or failed.
What I would do is take the identi-tape off of the biner and wrap it around the key stock portion of the making it more like a locker. Leaving a locker seemed a little expensive. This eased my mind a bit.
I realise that you are talking about sport climbing but I used to leave a biner in the alpine preplanned. I'll share this little trick that was a time saver. There were several places that I could use it but the most common place was on Mt Assiniboine. Coming down from the summit about three quarters of the way to the Red Band there was this short unavoidable wall. Running from mid day thunder storms was the norm up there so when I got to this place I would lower my client down quick as a bunny, then have the client stay tied in and stand where I could see him/her then quickly clip my rope into a leaver biner (taped at the gate) threw down the remaining coils and wrapped down on a single strand counter weighting off of the confused looking client.
We would be back and moving in less time then it would take me to set up a rap let alone get us both down. There were several places in the Rockies where I would do that. Since I made habit of stealing other peoples gear it was never a big loss.
I am the red headed step child of rockclimbing.com and the guys who beat me up on one of the other threads will find me here and of course point out the flaws of this procedure. Add it to your alpine quiver if you like, or not.
The Mike
(This post was edited by mikebarter387 on Jul 3, 2009, 1:22 AM)
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joeforte
Jul 3, 2009, 1:45 AM
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mikebarter387 wrote: I have to admit to leaving a few bail biners behind. When bailing from high up on a sport route and had to back clean the draws below me I was never real comfortable just being on a lone unlocking biner. Uncomfort level increased with each draw I removed. Course it would level out when I would hit the deck no matter what if for some reason that that biner opened or failed.
To avoid this, I attach a cinch to the rope going back to the belayer, so that it locks when pulled away from the belayer. If the bail biner or bolt were to fail as I'm being lowered, I would just take a lead fall, and the cinch would catch me at the next bolt below me. Essentially all it is doing is isolating that huge loop of slack you are creating above you, by keeping you "attached" to the rope going directly to the belayer. A lot of devices could be used for this, but I would stay away from anything with teeth, and a grigri would be tough because you can't load it on a weighted rope.
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mikebarter387
Jul 3, 2009, 1:50 AM
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That's pretty smart
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yankinoz
Jul 3, 2009, 3:21 AM
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a prussic might work for the same trick. interesting.
oh - I picked up one bail quick link off a route and have since discarded it after it started rusting on my harness. I keep my shoes on an old oval and when i climb the oval is on my harness as potential bail gear. Haven't had to use it. yet.
(This post was edited by yankinoz on Jul 3, 2009, 3:23 AM)
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mikebarter387
Jul 3, 2009, 12:07 PM
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I was thinking a sewn runner wrapped in a Kliemhiest. Like I said that is a pretty nifty trick. Think I will make a video of that and take credit for inventing it.
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bill413
Jul 4, 2009, 12:08 AM
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mikebarter387 wrote: Running from mid day thunder storms was the norm up there so when I got to this place I would lower my client down quick as a bunny, then have the client stay tied in and stand where I could see him/her then quickly clip my rope into a leaver biner (taped at the gate) threw down the remaining coils and wrapped down on a single strand counter weighting off of the confused looking client.
Well, if I were your client and that was done to me with no prior explanation, you would not be rehired. With explanation, it's a counter-weight rappel. Without, it's abuse of your client's trust.
In reply to: Since I made habit of stealing other peoples gear it was never a big loss.
Parking lot break-ins now explained.
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jul 4, 2009, 12:08 AM)
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joeforte
Jul 4, 2009, 1:04 AM
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mikebarter387 wrote: I was thinking a sewn runner wrapped in a Kliemhiest. Like I said that is a pretty nifty trick. Think I will make a video of that and take credit for inventing it. Since I made habit of stealing other peoples gear it was never a big loss.
Woah, we got a kleptomaniac on our hands here!
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