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mikebarter387
Jul 6, 2009, 12:25 PM
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GeneralZon
Jul 6, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Oh snap. Some serious shit talking in that video.
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dingus
Jul 6, 2009, 12:46 PM
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You clicked on it? I never watched the first one. Don't reckon I'll be watching this one either. DMT
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apeman_e
Jul 6, 2009, 12:58 PM
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BOOOORRRRRIIIINNNNGGGG
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GeneralZon
Jul 6, 2009, 1:03 PM
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I was referring to when he got all pumped up and challenged JT512 to a duel. Mildly entertaining watching a grown man act like a complete tool.
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chilli
Jul 6, 2009, 1:46 PM
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i saw this post and thought to myself, "great. here's another P.O.S. vid." i didn't even click on the link to the vid for a while b/c i didn't want to boost your hits for ads... but then curiosity got the better of me, and... well... i'll be the first to say that crow doesn't taste good, but when prepared properly can be eaten. that was hilarious! i wasn't a huge fan of the whole workout bit, but i DID especially like the suit and tux making fun of my rant regarding a lack of professionalism. hit the high points of rapping ethics by area, discussed your opinion on girth-hitching belay loop (which i still disagree w/ but live & let live). well played, mike. bonus points for absurd humor. better setup on bolts too, IMO. please don't break my heart and turn into a total prick about your ad hits again. edit: admittedly i did a little skipping through the video, b/c it was a bit long at the beginning. so i may have missed a point or two of contention, but still funny as hell.
(This post was edited by chilli on Jul 6, 2009, 2:57 PM)
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Carnage
Jul 6, 2009, 2:30 PM
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in terms of the comments around the 3:30 marks about the steel rap rings being indestructible and always being at a different point. the buldge in the ring from where the two ends are welded together makes the ring prefer to sit in one way. this causes the rope to unevenly wear in one section of the ring. If you do not believe me, go to the top of Voodoo surfing (orange Oswald wall, new river gorge) and you will see two giant worn half way through rings. This is one of the most popular places for beginners to climb at the new and these bolts (other than the wear on the rings) look no more than a year or 2 old.
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markc
Jul 6, 2009, 2:56 PM
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I liked this video a whole lot better. I thought the suit was good, then you upstaged it with the tux. See? I knew with a couple more takes you could get it right!
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mikebarter387
Jul 6, 2009, 2:59 PM
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Carnage is a good name for you. Let me get this straight you know this is happening yet you are doing nothing about it. Guess its not your job to repair learning areas. Here you are with all this experience but your going to wait till some kid gets hurt so that you can say I told you so. This is more likely: choose the right answer. A: This is made up. B: I have to discredit this guy quickly as he is becoming the new Alpha male C: I have to dis this guy cause everybody else is and it's 40 minutes till coffee break. What else am I going to do? D: All of the above. I choose D
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time2clmb
Jul 6, 2009, 3:20 PM
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LMAO. Nicely played!
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shermanr6
Jul 6, 2009, 4:15 PM
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Carnage wrote: If you do not believe me, go to the top of Voodoo surfing (orange Oswald wall, new river gorge) and you will see two giant worn half way through rings. This is one of the most popular places for beginners to climb at the new and these bolts (other than the wear on the rings) look no more than a year or 2 old. I completely agree. I always make sure to rap off after a single pitch climb, but what are you going to do? How about replacing hardware before it gets worn half way through. How many competent climbers must have seen it that way and just don't care? If you ask me, thats a bit scary.
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Carnage
Jul 6, 2009, 5:32 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: Carnage is a good name for you. Let me get this straight you know this is happening yet you are doing nothing about it. Guess its not your job to repair learning areas. Here you are with all this experience but your going to wait till some kid gets hurt so that you can say I told you so. This is more likely: choose the right answer. A: This is made up. B: I have to discredit this guy quickly as he is becoming the new Alpha male C: I have to dis this guy cause everybody else is and it's 40 minutes till coffee break. What else am I going to do? D: All of the above. I choose D im not a local, im there for a weekend, i dont know how to properly install bolts, so im not going to fuck with it. I let the guys at the local gear shop know, dropped in a couple bucks for anchor replacement donations like i always do. i figure thats the best i can do.
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JAB
Jul 6, 2009, 7:12 PM
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LOL. Well played! By the way, I also girth hitch just like that and my belay loop is wait for it... in perfect shape! Who woulda thought.
(This post was edited by JAB on Jul 6, 2009, 7:14 PM)
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shimanilami
Jul 6, 2009, 7:58 PM
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Every time you punch, you drop your other hand. I'd side-step and counter that shit so fast you'd never know what happened ... except that your wallet was missing, along with a few teeth. Nice video, though. Thanks.
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edge
Jul 6, 2009, 7:59 PM
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I love how the guy [who I otherwise agree with; regional bias maybe] questions saving a few bucks at the 4:06 mark, and yet his kid walks behind him without so much as a free comb from school pictures. Mockingbirds love hair like that. Please do not ask how I know any of this.
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quiteatingmysteak
Jul 6, 2009, 8:06 PM
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shimanilami wrote: Every time you punch, you drop your other hand. I'd side-step and counter that shit so fast you'd never know what happened ... except that your wallet was missing, along with a few teeth. Nice video, though. Thanks. and I'd shoot a double leg, pass your guard and put you out with an arm triangle. your point?
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sgauss
Jul 6, 2009, 9:04 PM
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Carnage wrote: in terms of the comments around the 3:30 marks about the steel rap rings being indestructible and always being at a different point. the buldge in the ring from where the two ends are welded together makes the ring prefer to sit in one way. this causes the rope to unevenly wear in one section of the ring. If you do not believe me, go to the top of Voodoo surfing (orange Oswald wall, new river gorge) and you will see two giant worn half way through rings. This is one of the most popular places for beginners to climb at the new and these bolts (other than the wear on the rings) look no more than a year or 2 old. Seconded - I've seen this too, but at RRG.
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quiteatingmysteak
Jul 6, 2009, 9:38 PM
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sgauss wrote: Carnage wrote: in terms of the comments around the 3:30 marks about the steel rap rings being indestructible and always being at a different point. the buldge in the ring from where the two ends are welded together makes the ring prefer to sit in one way. this causes the rope to unevenly wear in one section of the ring. If you do not believe me, go to the top of Voodoo surfing (orange Oswald wall, new river gorge) and you will see two giant worn half way through rings. This is one of the most popular places for beginners to climb at the new and these bolts (other than the wear on the rings) look no more than a year or 2 old. Seconded - I've seen this too, but at RRG. You know, at most of the REALLY WELL TRAVELED SPOTS (swan slab comes to mind, and the rap off of pine line) where i've seen rap rings around webbing, almost all the time they have been worn not just in one spot but several, like 4 or 5, because people rotate the rings. maybe this is because its with webbing instead of chains, but so far no deaths on those routes from the rings failing, and i gotta tell you, swan slab 5.6's and 5.7's probably are among the most climbed routes on the planet...
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rockandlice
Jul 7, 2009, 1:05 AM
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"water-proof rolling papers"
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sungam
Jul 7, 2009, 7:21 PM
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Strong werke, mike - but you need to wrap better when gloving up. You're not giving your wrists enough support.
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billcoe_
Jul 7, 2009, 8:58 PM
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sungam wrote: Strong werke, mike - but you need to wrap better when gloving up. You're not giving your wrists enough support. Better and more frequent use of lubrication and lubricity products will cure this.
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jeepnphreak
Jul 8, 2009, 2:09 AM
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5.13 in a suit! You are the king.
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mikebarter387
Jul 13, 2009, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: The little jogging scene at 0:14 seemingly borders on http://kidshealth.org/...al/brain/shaken.html. I found it disturbing to watch. Then the next vid is really going to send you into a spin. The unit and I are slamming back wine at the end like it was born on the Rez. Maybe you could find a link to a 12 step program for infant children in advance. Your help would be appreciated.
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ski.ninja
Jul 14, 2009, 12:26 AM
Post #25 of 108
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I agree with you regarding the girth hitched belay loop. I have had a sling/daisy girth hitched to my belay loop for 300+ days of holding body weight. The girth hitch was moved about 6 times over the 18 months I was using this setup. Upon visual inspection of my belay loop the entire loop seems to have worn evenly and there are no obvious concentrations of fraying or stretching where the hitches were tightened. On another note, I once knew a ski patroller who put his 3 year old girl in a backpack and took her skiing. She started lessons at 5, and now at 19 she's on the provincial team. The infant seems to be dynamically harnessed in, I doubt she'll see the forces sufficient to cause trauma inside her skull.
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sittingduck
Jul 17, 2009, 12:49 PM
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Funny video! Do you always have that many quickdraws to play with at the end of a sport climb? Could you demonstrate how to thread the chains when there are no quickdraws left at the end of the climb? TIA
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mikebarter387
Jul 17, 2009, 1:41 PM
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See that sewn sling. If you know enough about draws you can figure out the rest. Another idiot on the RC.
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sittingduck
Jul 17, 2009, 2:39 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: See that sewn sling. If you know enough about draws you can figure out the rest. Another idiot on the RC. This is the beginners forum, so I was thinking that you where making this video to teach beginners? As an idiot beginner, I do clearly not know enough about draws, could you explain how I'm supposed to use that sewn sling?
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mikebarter387
Jul 17, 2009, 3:00 PM
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Sorry I have to deal with so many smart asses here that sometimes you mix in a real person once in awhile. You can watch this and just back up with what ever you have available to the other chain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6hnboCOBz0
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sittingduck
Jul 17, 2009, 3:21 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: Sorry I have to deal with so many smart asses here that sometimes you mix in a real person once in awhile. You can watch this and just back up with what ever you have available to the other chain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6hnboCOBz0 No problem, I watched the video, but there you are using additional gear to the sling. I am a bit confused since you said I could do the operation with that sewn sling and one carabiner!? Edit: missed the part where you said back up to the other chain with whatever gear available
(This post was edited by sittingduck on Jul 17, 2009, 3:43 PM)
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sittingduck
Jul 18, 2009, 3:33 PM
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Embarrassing thing is that I, the idiot, know a way to do the operation redundant with only that sewn sling and one screwgate carabiner
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mikebarter387
Jul 18, 2009, 4:25 PM
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There are a number of ways to do it. Careful though there is no real hunting season for ducks here. They just blast away not caring what they kill or how they kill it as long as it is dead. All the hunting standards of Dick Cheney.
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sungam
Jul 18, 2009, 8:58 PM
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Larks foot to the chain on the right, clove to your belay loop, biner to the other chain. Best of luck More realistically - bring the necessary gearz.
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sittingduck
Jul 18, 2009, 9:37 PM
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sungam wrote: Larks foot to the chain on the right, clove to your belay loop, biner to the other chain. Best of luck More realistically - bring the necessary gearz. Very clever, although not redundant (you'll be connected only by the belay loop), so it do not meet the criteria of this challenge.
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acorneau
Jul 18, 2009, 9:59 PM
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sittingduck wrote: Here are the situation at the top of the climb Sooooo ,,,? Clip both chains with the biner. Duh!
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acorneau
Jul 18, 2009, 10:00 PM
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sittingduck wrote: Very clever, although not redundant (you'll be connected only by the belay loop), so it do not meet the criteria of this challenge. Belay loops are made with TWO loops of webbing, so yes, you ARE redundant.
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 18, 2009, 10:00 PM)
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sittingduck
Jul 18, 2009, 10:18 PM
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acorneau wrote: sittingduck wrote: Here are the situation at the top of the climb Sooooo ,,,? Clip both chains with the biner. Duh! Super minimalistic, sorry its not redundant on two points, the biner and belay loop, and you get three axle loading of the biner.
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sittingduck
Jul 18, 2009, 10:22 PM
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acorneau wrote: sittingduck wrote: Very clever, although not redundant (you'll be connected only by the belay loop), so it do not meet the criteria of this challenge. Belay loops are made with TWO loops of webbing, so yes, you ARE redundant. No it is not redundant. If it snaps you fly.
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acorneau
Jul 18, 2009, 10:31 PM
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sittingduck wrote: Super minimalistic, sorry its not redundant on two points, the biner and belay loop, and you get three axle loading of the biner. You're missing the point: The biner does not need to be redundant, the sling does not need to be redundant, the belay loop does not need to be redundant. The only thing that really needs to be redundant are the connections to the rock (i.e. bolts). Oh, and I think you're trying to say "tri-axle loading". Assuming the chains are of appropriate length, the biner would not be loaded in a tr-axle situation. Like this:
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sungam
Jul 18, 2009, 10:48 PM
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sittingduck wrote: acorneau wrote: sittingduck wrote: Very clever, although not redundant (you'll be connected only by the belay loop), so it do not meet the criteria of this challenge. Belay loops are made with TWO loops of webbing, so yes, you ARE redundant. No it is not redundant. If it snaps you fly. ZOMG! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! HOLY SHITZ! ALL BELAYS AND REPELS ARE NOT REDUNDANT! n00b.
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sittingduck
Jul 18, 2009, 10:52 PM
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acorneau wrote: sittingduck wrote: Super minimalistic, sorry its not redundant on two points, the biner and belay loop, and you get three axle loading of the biner. You're missing the point: The biner does not need to be redundant, the sling does not need to be redundant, the belay loop does not need to be redundant. The only thing that really needs to be redundant are the connections to the rock (i.e. bolts). Oh, and I think you're trying to say "tri-axle loading". Assuming the chains are of appropriate length, the biner would not be loaded in a tr-axle situation. Like this: Nothing has to be redundant, you may solo the route if you like. In order to solve THIS callenge it has to be redundant, ok? EDIT: Same goes to SUNGAM
(This post was edited by sittingduck on Jul 18, 2009, 10:55 PM)
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sungam
Jul 18, 2009, 10:55 PM
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Dude, if you're that fucking desperate, then do the clove hitch through the tie in loops instead of the belay loop. BFD.
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marc801
Jul 19, 2009, 12:23 AM
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sittingduck wrote: Here are the situation at the top of the climb Sooooo ,,,? Actually, assuming the chains are standard 3/8" links, it is possible to squeeze a bight of rope through the bottom links. How tight a fit depends on your rope. You can also pretty easily fit a bight of rope through the bolt hanger itself. On that other point, you can't suddenly start crying about the supposed lack of redundancy over the use of such things as a locking biner and/or the belay loop, which are normally used singly and don't require redundancy. That's just changing the rules so you can claim you won an internet argument and satisfy your ego.
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 1:18 AM
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marc801 wrote: sittingduck wrote: Here are the situation at the top of the climb Sooooo ,,,? Actually, assuming the chains are standard 3/8" links, it is possible to squeeze a bight of rope through the bottom links. How tight a fit depends on your rope. You can also pretty easily fit a bight of rope through the bolt hanger itself. On that other point, you can't suddenly start crying about the supposed lack of redundancy over the use of such things as a locking biner and/or the belay loop, which are normally used singly and don't require redundancy. That's just changing the rules so you can claim you won an internet argument and satisfy your ego. It is not possible to get a bight through the chains in the original posters video, hence the challenge. A single rope, a locking biner or the belay loop is not redundant. I have never looked upon them as redundant and certainly not changed any rules. I guess you use methods that are not redundant, and try to ridicule me for pointing out that stuff you look upon as redundant, actually ain't redundant.
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bill413
Jul 19, 2009, 2:11 AM
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sittingduck wrote: marc801 wrote: sittingduck wrote: Here are the situation at the top of the climb Sooooo ,,,? Actually, assuming the chains are standard 3/8" links, it is possible to squeeze a bight of rope through the bottom links. How tight a fit depends on your rope. You can also pretty easily fit a bight of rope through the bolt hanger itself. On that other point, you can't suddenly start crying about the supposed lack of redundancy over the use of such things as a locking biner and/or the belay loop, which are normally used singly and don't require redundancy. That's just changing the rules so you can claim you won an internet argument and satisfy your ego. It is not possible to get a bight through the chains in the original posters video, hence the challenge. A single rope, a locking biner or the belay loop is not redundant. I have never looked upon them as redundant and certainly not changed any rules. I guess you use methods that are not redundant, and try to ridicule me for pointing out that stuff you look upon as redundant, actually ain't redundant. I will accept that a single, unaltered sling is not redundant. I will accept that a single biner is not redundant (but do you routinely belay with doubled biners? Even with a Grigri?). The belay loop is inherently redundant. It is not a single short sling. It is a multi-layered loop - depending on the manufacturer it is two or three layers of webbing, well & multiply stitched. It is probably stronger than any other component of your harness.
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milesenoell
Jul 19, 2009, 4:48 AM
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I feel like a fucking trout for biting, but here you go... clip your belay loop to a chain while clipping the rope at the same time. Then girth hitch the sling to BOTH tie in points on your harness (cause the belay loop apparently isn't good enough) then pass the sling through BOTH chains and tie it back off to BOTH tie in points on your harness (you need to have a long sling or be able to tie a real small knot). Then you can pull some rope through the biner tie a bowline on a bight through BOTH your tie in points on your harness, untie your 8, thread the chains, retie your 8, unclip the biner, untie the sling and presto! (of course you could tie off the sling to a chain directly but it seems like more fun to tie off to BOTH tie in points and turn your harness into a total clusterfuck)
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Jul 19, 2009, 4:51 AM)
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playouts1de
Jul 19, 2009, 10:17 AM
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I lurk WAY too much and hardly ever post, BUT sittingduck sounds way too much like Majid to be legit. Posing as a self proclaimed noob, then getting really anal about the criteria of the question, admitting to knowing more than he originally stated ect... Maybe I'm wrong, just cautious.... If he tries to split the runner and rap off it, I win.
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angry
Jul 19, 2009, 10:31 AM
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playouts1de wrote: I lurk WAY too much and hardly ever post, BUT sittingduck sounds way too much like Majid to be legit. Posing as a self proclaimed noob, then getting really anal about the criteria of the question, admitting to knowing more than he originally stated ect... Maybe I'm wrong, just cautious.... If he tries to split the runner and rap off it, I win. There's nothing legit about him, he's not Majid but of the same ilk. Noobtard fuckwit.
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 11:11 AM
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angry wrote: playouts1de wrote: I lurk WAY too much and hardly ever post, BUT sittingduck sounds way too much like Majid to be legit. Posing as a self proclaimed noob, then getting really anal about the criteria of the question, admitting to knowing more than he originally stated ect... Maybe I'm wrong, just cautious.... If he tries to split the runner and rap off it, I win. There's nothing legit about him, he's not Majid but of the same ilk. Noobtard fuckwit. No the runner will not be split. Annoyed by not knowing how to solve the challenge Angry?
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mikebarter387
Jul 19, 2009, 2:07 PM
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annoyed, yeh at thinking you were a ligit person in need of help. I take back the sorry part you are a idiot.
(This post was edited by mikebarter387 on Jul 19, 2009, 2:21 PM)
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 3:51 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: annoyed, yeh at thinking you were a ligit person in need of help. I take back the sorry part you are a idiot. Whenever anyone look closer on what you are teaching, and point out that something is wrong or lacking, you call them idiots and threatens with violence. It do not change the fact that you spray about knowing stuff you seem to not know. I do not know what you call people like that where you come from, idiots?
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angry
Jul 19, 2009, 4:07 PM
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sittingduck wrote: angry wrote: playouts1de wrote: I lurk WAY too much and hardly ever post, BUT sittingduck sounds way too much like Majid to be legit. Posing as a self proclaimed noob, then getting really anal about the criteria of the question, admitting to knowing more than he originally stated ect... Maybe I'm wrong, just cautious.... If he tries to split the runner and rap off it, I win. There's nothing legit about him, he's not Majid but of the same ilk. Noobtard fuckwit. No the runner will not be split. Annoyed by not knowing how to solve the challenge Angry? Not in the least. I'm annoyed that you got a voice on this site, you don't deserve one.
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 9:18 PM
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angry wrote: sittingduck wrote: angry wrote: playouts1de wrote: I lurk WAY too much and hardly ever post, BUT sittingduck sounds way too much like Majid to be legit. Posing as a self proclaimed noob, then getting really anal about the criteria of the question, admitting to knowing more than he originally stated ect... Maybe I'm wrong, just cautious.... If he tries to split the runner and rap off it, I win. There's nothing legit about him, he's not Majid but of the same ilk. Noobtard fuckwit. No the runner will not be split. Annoyed by not knowing how to solve the challenge Angry? Not in the least. I'm annoyed that you got a voice on this site, you don't deserve one. I'm sorry life seems so unfair to you. Back to topic, here is a redundant way to thread the chains: 1. girth hitch the sling to the belay loop and clip it with the biner to one of the chains. 2. pull up some slack, still belayed from the ground. 3. tie in using a bight of the climbing rope, with a bowline for instance. 4. still on belay, untie the original tie in knot and thread the rope through the chains. 5. tie in again with the rope coming through the chains. 6. untie the bowline and have the partner take in the slack. 7. remove the carabiner from the chain. 8. ready for lowering This way you use the quick draws on the bolts below as backup. If the bolt, chain or sling snaps, you fall the same distance as if you'd fall arriving at the chains.
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ski.ninja
Jul 19, 2009, 9:48 PM
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If your sling snaps and you fall on that setup, you are taking a larger fall on a single quickdraw. A 12' fall might be acceptable to you as a redundant backup, but I'd rather just pack the extra quickdraw/sling and not worry about it.
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milesenoell
Jul 19, 2009, 10:01 PM
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sittingduck wrote: Back to topic, here is a redundant way to thread the chains: 1. girth hitch the sling to the belay loop and clip it with the biner to one of the chains. 2. pull up some slack, still belayed from the ground. 3. tie in using a bight of the climbing rope, with a bowline for instance. 4. still on belay, untie the original tie in knot and thread the rope through the chains. 5. tie in again with the rope coming through the chains. 6. untie the bowline and have the partner take in the slack. 7. remove the carabiner from the chain. 8. ready for lowering This way you use the quick draws on the bolts below as backup. If the bolt, chain or sling snaps, you fall the same distance as if you'd fall arriving at the chains. NOPE. The task as specified was to do it with only a locker and a sling and the anchor chains, with no quickdraws at all. Thus, your system is not redundant and you failed. Better luck next time. (if you allow for the quickdraw then you don't even need the sling)
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 10:03 PM
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ski.ninja wrote: If your sling snaps and you fall on that setup, you are taking a larger fall on a single quickdraw. A 12' fall might be acceptable to you as a redundant backup, but I'd rather just pack the extra quickdraw/sling and not worry about it. Sure, adequate gear is preferable. I'll accept a fall into the top bolt on a sport climb where all the bolts below are clipped as backup, if the alternative is a fall to the ground.
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sungam
Jul 19, 2009, 10:31 PM
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was my answer to your obscure question redundant in your eyes, or did you find a hole in it?
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 10:44 PM
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milesenoell wrote: sittingduck wrote: Back to topic, here is a redundant way to thread the chains: 1. girth hitch the sling to the belay loop and clip it with the biner to one of the chains. 2. pull up some slack, still belayed from the ground. 3. tie in using a bight of the climbing rope, with a bowline for instance. 4. still on belay, untie the original tie in knot and thread the rope through the chains. 5. tie in again with the rope coming through the chains. 6. untie the bowline and have the partner take in the slack. 7. remove the carabiner from the chain. 8. ready for lowering This way you use the quick draws on the bolts below as backup. If the bolt, chain or sling snaps, you fall the same distance as if you'd fall arriving at the chains. NOPE. The task as specified was to do it with only a locker and a sling and the anchor chains, with no quickdraws at all. Thus, your system is not redundant and you failed. Better luck next time. (if you allow for the quickdraw then you don't even need the sling) I think there is a misunderstanding, the quickdraw is on the last bolt below the chains. Of course you may use it, it is there anyway.
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ski.ninja
Jul 19, 2009, 10:51 PM
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I'd rather lose my toe in a chainsaw accident then my whole leg, but the point is that I shouldn't have put myself in a situation where that was likely to happen in the first place. This entire scenario smacks of poor planning and lack of foresight. This is a sport route we're talking about, where copious amounts of information through sources such as guidebooks and/or local climbers would be available prior to the climber arriving at the crag.
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 10:58 PM
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sungam wrote: was my answer to your obscure question redundant in your eyes, or did you find a hole in it? I think it was clever and if I was to critique, it would be that if one of the legs in the sling cuts, you'd be hanging from a clove hitch around the waist and leg tie in loops and those would be pulling away from each other. You think it is ok?
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 11:06 PM
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ski.ninja wrote: I'd rather lose my toe in a chainsaw accident then my whole leg, but the point is that I shouldn't have put myself in a situation where that was likely to happen in the first place. This entire scenario smacks of poor planning and lack of foresight. This is a sport route we're talking about, where copious amounts of information through sources such as guidebooks and/or local climbers would be available prior to the climber arriving at the crag. You are correct, let for the sake of the challenge say you dropped your extra draws at the climb?
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sungam
Jul 19, 2009, 11:09 PM
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sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: was my answer to your obscure question redundant in your eyes, or did you find a hole in it? I think it was clever and if I was to critique, it would be that if one of the legs in the sling cuts, you'd be hanging from a clove hitch around the waist and leg tie in loops and those would be pulling away from each other. You think it is ok? A fair point - I'm not sure how a clove hitch would reat to the pulling apart motion. I suppose that in that case, perhaps a fig-8 would be better.
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sittingduck
Jul 19, 2009, 11:30 PM
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: was my answer to your obscure question redundant in your eyes, or did you find a hole in it? I think it was clever and if I was to critique, it would be that if one of the legs in the sling cuts, you'd be hanging from a clove hitch around the waist and leg tie in loops and those would be pulling away from each other. You think it is ok? A fair point - I'm not sure how a clove hitch would reat to the pulling apart motion. I suppose that in that case, perhaps a fig-8 would be better. Agree, nicely done!
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milesenoell
Jul 19, 2009, 11:31 PM
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sittingduck wrote: I think there is a misunderstanding, the quickdraw is on the last bolt below the chains. Of course you may use it, it is there anyway. If you are considering the last bolt as one of your connections then why not the one below that as well? Then you don't need the sling or the locker. At the top of an average sport route you could have the top bolt rip and still catch on the second to last bolt before you deck. 1)Climb up to the anchors and get a stance 2)Pull up slack and tie in a second time on a bight (bowline on a bight) 3)Untie the initial tie in 4)Thread the chains 5)Tie back in 6)Un-tie the second knot (the one on a bight) 7)Take and lower Your challenge is written to ignore real world situations in favor of only allowing a solution no one should bother to use. A similarly stupid answer that is technically correct would be to climb up and clip the last bolt, downclimb and grab draws from the third and fourth to last bolts, climb back up to the chains and thread the anchors the way most normal people do? It's redundant, requires no slings or lockers, doesn't risk a big drop, and lets you use the familiar standardized anchor threading procedure that most people can do without worrying about making a mistake.
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sungam
Jul 19, 2009, 11:35 PM
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I'd say that both your and sittingduck's explanations are too complicated and involve way too much untying and tying in. Too much to fuck up.
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 1:10 AM
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milesenoell wrote: sittingduck wrote: I think there is a misunderstanding, the quickdraw is on the last bolt below the chains. Of course you may use it, it is there anyway. If you are considering the last bolt as one of your connections then why not the one below that as well? Then you don't need the sling or the locker. At the top of an average sport route you could have the top bolt rip and still catch on the second to last bolt before you deck. 1)Climb up to the anchors and get a stance 2)Pull up slack and tie in a second time on a bight (bowline on a bight) 3)Untie the initial tie in 4)Thread the chains 5)Tie back in 6)Un-tie the second knot (the one on a bight) 7)Take and lower Your challenge is written to ignore real world situations in favor of only allowing a solution no one should bother to use. A similarly stupid answer that is technically correct would be to climb up and clip the last bolt, downclimb and grab draws from the third and fourth to last bolts, climb back up to the chains and thread the anchors the way most normal people do? It's redundant, requires no slings or lockers, doesn't risk a big drop, and lets you use the familiar standardized anchor threading procedure that most people can do without worrying about making a mistake. The challenge is written as a reply to the original posters video where he had draws in abundance at the chains. I was curious if he could do the operations with less gear, a just as plausible situation.
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 1:23 AM
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sungam wrote: I'd say that both your and sittingduck's explanations are too complicated and involve way too much untying and tying in. Too much to fuck up. I can't see the big difference between tying in with a sling or the rope other than the rope being faster. Using your method requires tying completely out of the rope and not considered an advantage in my book. You will experience the fuck up when standing on your toes trying to reach the chain with the biner and afterwords struggle with the fig 8 on the sling that is still attached to you and the chain.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 1:52 AM
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First off, I'd tie the hollow fig-8 before larks footing, and yes it would be awkward, but I personally just don't like fucking around and untying and tying in repeatedly. In my opinion, that's when fatal mistakes get made.
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milesenoell
Jul 20, 2009, 5:14 AM
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My answer was supposed to sound stupid since the premise is stupid (IMO). The basic idea of tying in twice is sound, but I don't advocate adding any more steps than neccessary.
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 6:59 AM
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sittingduck wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: There are a number of ways to do it. Careful though there is no real hunting season for ducks here. They just blast away not caring what they kill or how they kill it as long as it is dead. All the hunting standards of Dick Cheney. Here are the situation at the top of the climb Sooooo ,,,? A technically correct, albeit stupid, solution to the challenge is so simple that I'm not sure why this so-called challenge is going on for page after page. Clip the biner into your belay loop and one of the chains. Thread the sling through the other chain and your belay loop, and tie a knot in the sling to form a loop. Durrr! Of course no one, in practice, would do such a thing. If you find yourself short a draw at the anchors, just clip in to the anchor, lower down to the last bolt (or the second to last bolt, if you really want to be cautious), remove that draw, pull back up to the anchor, and clip in to the other chain with that draw. Jay
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 11:34 AM
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sungam wrote: First off, I'd tie the hollow fig-8 before larks footing, and yes it would be awkward, but I personally just don't like fucking around and untying and tying in repeatedly. In my opinion, that's when fatal mistakes get made. You would be completely loose from the rope using your method. Fucking around trying to thread the chains you might drop it.
jt512 wrote: sittingduck wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: There are a number of ways to do it. Careful though there is no real hunting season for ducks here. They just blast away not caring what they kill or how they kill it as long as it is dead. All the hunting standards of Dick Cheney. Here are the situation at the top of the climb [image]http://www.home.no/sittingduck/chains.jpg[/image] Sooooo ,,,? A technically correct, albeit stupid, solution to the challenge is so simple that I'm not sure why this so-called challenge is going on for page after page. Clip the biner into your belay loop and one of the chains. Thread the sling through the other chain and your belay loop, and tie a knot in the sling to form a loop. Durrr! Of course no one, in practice, would do such a thing. If you find yourself short a draw at the anchors, just clip in to the anchor, lower down to the last bolt (or the second to last bolt, if you really want to be cautious), remove that draw, pull back up to the anchor, and clip in to the other chain with that draw. Jay Agree, I should have mentioned that the method should be suitable to teach clients if you where a guide. Lowering down to get some draws seems to solve the problem in any regards. Lars
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billcoe_
Jul 20, 2009, 1:19 PM
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boymeetsrock
Jul 20, 2009, 2:11 PM
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'atta boy billcoe_ !!! Obviously you missed the last "lowering through the chains" thread !
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lrossi
Jul 20, 2009, 2:50 PM
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What is the downside of just always having a couple of slings always girth-hitched to your harness? None. I'm a clumsy fucktard who drops stuff. I'll never drop something girth-hitched to my harness. I'll never be at an anchor with no way to tie in.
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angry
Jul 20, 2009, 3:00 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: Lowering off chains is a total idiot N00b move. Unless it's an emergency or there is some other extenuating circumstance, don't do it. Thread and rap. Shut up
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dynosore
Jul 20, 2009, 3:57 PM
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Take a whipper onto the bolt below, climb up, clean the draw, and repeat all the way down. Hopefully the crux is not near the ground and you can downclimb the last little bit. Always bring a crash pad. Sorry, that's the only solution I can think of that's as dumb as the original question......
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 4:19 PM
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lrossi wrote: I'm a clumsy fucktard who drops stuff. I'll never drop something girth-hitched to my harness. I'll never be at an anchor with no way to tie in. I guess that consigns you to top roping for life. Jay
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lrossi
Jul 20, 2009, 4:21 PM
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jt512 wrote: lrossi wrote: I'm a clumsy fucktard who drops stuff. I'll never drop something girth-hitched to my harness. I'll never be at an anchor with no way to tie in. I guess that consigns you to top roping for life. Jay No, I just carry extra stuff.
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 4:23 PM
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lrossi wrote: jt512 wrote: lrossi wrote: I'm a clumsy fucktard who drops stuff. I'll never drop something girth-hitched to my harness. I'll never be at an anchor with no way to tie in. I guess that consigns you to top roping for life. Jay No, I just carry extra stuff. That rather weakens your rationale for having a bunch of webbing girth hitched to your harness all the time. Jay
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lrossi
Jul 20, 2009, 4:35 PM
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jt512 wrote: That rather weakens your rationale for having a bunch of webbing girth hitched to your harness all the time. Jay I just don't see the downside of carrying them. Thin slings weigh practically nothing.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 4:50 PM
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sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: First off, I'd tie the hollow fig-8 before larks footing, and yes it would be awkward, but I personally just don't like fucking around and untying and tying in repeatedly. In my opinion, that's when fatal mistakes get made. You would be completely loose from the rope using your method. Fucking around trying to thread the chains you might drop it. Only a retard wouldn't fix it to themselves in some way. Perhaps a clove hitch to the one biner you have or such that like.
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marc801
Jul 20, 2009, 5:21 PM
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: First off, I'd tie the hollow fig-8 before larks footing, and yes it would be awkward, but I personally just don't like fucking around and untying and tying in repeatedly. In my opinion, that's when fatal mistakes get made. You would be completely loose from the rope using your method. Fucking around trying to thread the chains you might drop it. Only a retard wouldn't fix it to themselves in some way. Perhaps a clove hitch to the one biner you have or such that like. Again, you can thread a bight of rope through a 3/8" chain link without untying.
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Johnny_Fang
Jul 20, 2009, 5:37 PM
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Look at this, I go away for a few days on a climbing trip, come back, and discover that rc.com is just as fucking stupid as it was when I left. Why do I waste my time here?
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 5:44 PM
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lrossi wrote: jt512 wrote: That rather weakens your rationale for having a bunch of webbing girth hitched to your harness all the time. Jay I just don't see the downside of carrying them. Thin slings weigh practically nothing. More weight and bulk, and if you carry them instead of extra draws, then less utility. Plus they make you look like a total n00b almost as much as carrying two belay devices. Jay
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budman
Jul 20, 2009, 5:56 PM
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For what it's worth! Top rope off your own gear and thread and rap. What's accepted at a crag doesn't make it right. As to getting off a climb with chains, use the sling to rack booty gear and clip the locker through two upper links, clip in to your harness and lock the gate. Remember to anchor your rope before you untie, don't want to drop that puppy with all the ladies present. Thread the rope and blah, blah, blah, ............................. Hopefully I'll have a little more than a locker and a sling when I reach the anchor, but not a whole lot more.
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ski.ninja
Jul 20, 2009, 6:35 PM
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sittingduck wrote: ski.ninja wrote: I'd rather lose my toe in a chainsaw accident then my whole leg, but the point is that I shouldn't have put myself in a situation where that was likely to happen in the first place. This entire scenario smacks of poor planning and lack of foresight. This is a sport route we're talking about, where copious amounts of information through sources such as guidebooks and/or local climbers would be available prior to the climber arriving at the crag. You are correct, let for the sake of the challenge say you dropped your extra draws at the climb? You are getting ornery and this is becoming tedious. I may be recovering from surgery and drugged up to the gills, but even I have limits. You may have invaded my homeland, Viking, but our Skraelings sent you packing! We will not be intimidated by your iron weapons and woven fabrics!
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 7:59 PM
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: First off, I'd tie the hollow fig-8 before larks footing, and yes it would be awkward, but I personally just don't like fucking around and untying and tying in repeatedly. In my opinion, that's when fatal mistakes get made. You would be completely loose from the rope using your method. Fucking around trying to thread the chains you might drop it. Only a retard wouldn't fix it to themselves in some way. Perhaps a clove hitch to the one biner you have or such that like. Why be cruel and have the retards drop their ropes? You might find opening and closing a weighted biner difficult if it where a hanging belay.
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spanishbombs
Jul 20, 2009, 8:07 PM
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Okay, everyone knows it is bad to top-rope off rings/chains (except in Hawaii, apparently). However, there seems to be a lot of signal-to-noise about whether you rap or lower off of chains/rap rings. I also find a lot of conflicting opinions in real life. Would it be possible to actually decide whether you are allowed to lower off rings/chains or if you are supposed to rap? Thanks.
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 8:16 PM
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ski.ninja wrote: sittingduck wrote: ski.ninja wrote: I'd rather lose my toe in a chainsaw accident then my whole leg, but the point is that I shouldn't have put myself in a situation where that was likely to happen in the first place. This entire scenario smacks of poor planning and lack of foresight. This is a sport route we're talking about, where copious amounts of information through sources such as guidebooks and/or local climbers would be available prior to the climber arriving at the crag. You are correct, let for the sake of the challenge say you dropped your extra draws at the climb? You are getting ornery and this is becoming tedious. I may be recovering from surgery and drugged up to the gills, but even I have limits. You may have invaded my homeland, Viking, but our Skraelings sent you packing! We will not be intimidated by your iron weapons and woven fabrics! I'm injured and bored to, shoulder messed up after a tomahawk and now the snow is gone
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acorneau
Jul 20, 2009, 8:24 PM
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spanishbombs wrote: Would it be possible to actually decide whether you are allowed to lower off rings/chains or if you are supposed to rap? Thanks. No. Expanded answer: Every region/area/crag has it's own ethics, traditions, customs, and even "hardware budget", so what works for one crag may not be the best for another.
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zchandran
Jul 20, 2009, 8:25 PM
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sittingduck wrote: ski.ninja wrote: I'd rather lose my toe in a chainsaw accident then my whole leg, but the point is that I shouldn't have put myself in a situation where that was likely to happen in the first place. This entire scenario smacks of poor planning and lack of foresight. This is a sport route we're talking about, where copious amounts of information through sources such as guidebooks and/or local climbers would be available prior to the climber arriving at the crag. You are correct, let for the sake of the challenge say you dropped your extra draws at the climb? Come on, if you're going to "what if" this to death, at least come up with some more plausible scenarios: While in the midst of implementing your solution, your belayer stroked out and is now lying face down on top of his ATC device. You can't see his hands or the rope going through it. There is tension in the rope but you don't know if it will hold your weight. Also, you're in the middle of grizzly bear country and rain is starting to gently fall. Go.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 8:36 PM
Post #95 of 108
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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sittingduck wrote: You might find opening and closing a weighted biner difficult if it where a hanging belay. Sorry, I don't use 25 year old beaners, so this isn't an issue. And sorry for my immature choice of words, that was harsh of me.
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chilli
Jul 20, 2009, 8:49 PM
Post #96 of 108
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Johnny_Fang wrote: Look at this, I go away for a few days on a climbing trip, come back, and discover that rc.com is just as fucking stupid as it was when I left. Why do I waste my time here? haha. what a coincidence; i was just thinking the same thing.
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shermanr6
Jul 20, 2009, 8:50 PM
Post #97 of 108
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Registered: Nov 13, 2006
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1. Thread the sling through both chains. 2. Tie an overhand with both ends of the sling. 3. Clip both loops to your belay loop with the locker. 4. Thread the chains and lower.
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 9:04 PM
Post #98 of 108
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: You might find opening and closing a weighted biner difficult if it where a hanging belay. Sorry, I don't use 25 year old beaner... I can think of a number of follow-ups to this comment, anyone of which would get me into deep trouble. Jay
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 9:09 PM
Post #99 of 108
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jt512 wrote: sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: You might find opening and closing a weighted biner difficult if it where a hanging belay. Sorry, I don't use 25 year old beaner... I can think of a number of follow-ups to this comment, anyone of which would get me into deep trouble. Jay You mean like how beaner is only 22?
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 9:13 PM
Post #100 of 108
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Registered: Aug 19, 2003
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: You might find opening and closing a weighted biner difficult if it where a hanging belay. Sorry, I don't use 25 year old beaners, so this isn't an issue. And sorry for my immature choice of words, that was harsh of me. Would you not prefer a method that worked with all carabiners with no criteria for brand or age? Opening and closing carabiners that is a vital part of the belay should not be encouraged.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 9:19 PM
Post #101 of 108
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sittingduck wrote: Would you not prefer a method that worked with all carabiners with no criteria for brand or age? Opening and closing carabiners that is a vital part of the belay should not be encouraged. Fine, I'll tie a bight of rope to one of my gear loops instead.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 9:28 PM
Post #102 of 108
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100th PT'ing post FTW! NFG! Protekshunz! Bomber nest of pro...
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ski.ninja
Jul 20, 2009, 9:39 PM
Post #103 of 108
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Registered: Oct 8, 2008
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zchandran wrote: sittingduck wrote: ski.ninja wrote: I'd rather lose my toe in a chainsaw accident then my whole leg, but the point is that I shouldn't have put myself in a situation where that was likely to happen in the first place. This entire scenario smacks of poor planning and lack of foresight. This is a sport route we're talking about, where copious amounts of information through sources such as guidebooks and/or local climbers would be available prior to the climber arriving at the crag. You are correct, let for the sake of the challenge say you dropped your extra draws at the climb? Come on, if you're going to "what if" this to death, at least come up with some more plausible scenarios: While in the midst of implementing your solution, your belayer stroked out and is now lying face down on top of his ATC device. You can't see his hands or the rope going through it. There is tension in the rope but you don't know if it will hold your weight. Also, you're in the middle of grizzly bear country and rain is starting to gently fall. Go. Hot damn! There's a scenario I can get behind. This is how it would go down. I'd girth hitch the sling to my belay loop, thread on chain with the sling then tie a large knot (overhand/fig8/whatever) then thread the second chain and then clip the sling back to my belay loop. I'd secure the rope so I wouldn't lose it (gear loop, whatever) untie, then tie into both chains using an equalizing figure 8 follow through (see Rock Climbing Anchors by Craig Luebben, p. 224) backed up with a double fishermans, rig a rappel device for the single strand, then disconnect and rap down the rope to my belay buddy. Grizzleys don't eat their food while it's still warm, so I can feel confident that any curious ursine companions would not be very close. Having determined the scene is free of dangers, I would proceed with my ABC assessment of the patient. If it's a stroke, then he can be moved using a fireman's carry as it allows for a clear airway to be maintained/evaluated throughout the evacuation. For defense I would use a large pointed stick. This is assuming a no cell/satphone and a lack of first aid gear.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 9:43 PM
Post #104 of 108
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zchandran wrote: While in the midst of implementing your solution, your belayer stroked out and is now lying face down on top of his ATC device. Maybe "stroking out" means something different in the US then in the UK, though then again - maybe it doesn't.
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 9:51 PM
Post #105 of 108
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Registered: Aug 19, 2003
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: Would you not prefer a method that worked with all carabiners with no criteria for brand or age? Opening and closing carabiners that is a vital part of the belay should not be encouraged. Fine, I'll tie a bight of rope to one of my gear loops instead. Would it not be better to use your tie in points than your gear loops?
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 9:54 PM
Post #106 of 108
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: Would you not prefer a method that worked with all carabiners with no criteria for brand or age? Opening and closing carabiners that is a vital part of the belay should not be encouraged. Fine, I'll tie a bight of rope to one of my gear loops instead. Would it not be better to use your tie in points than your gear loops? , well, I like to keep things uncluttered at the front, so I can clearly see what I'm doing when I tie in. I'm aware that everyone makes mistakes at some point, and I'm keen on having a good view of what I'm doing as far as tying in is concerned so that if I do fuck up, I can see that I did, and it also makes me less likely to fuck up. If I had fucked up the sling, I'd already be airborne.
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2009, 10:12 PM
Post #107 of 108
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Registered: Aug 19, 2003
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sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: sungam wrote: sittingduck wrote: Would you not prefer a method that worked with all carabiners with no criteria for brand or age? Opening and closing carabiners that is a vital part of the belay should not be encouraged. Fine, I'll tie a bight of rope to one of my gear loops instead. Would it not be better to use your tie in points than your gear loops? , well, I like to keep things uncluttered at the front, so I can clearly see what I'm doing when I tie in. I'm aware that everyone makes mistakes at some point, and I'm keen on having a good view of what I'm doing as far as tying in is concerned so that if I do fuck up, I can see that I did, and it also makes me less likely to fuck up. If I had fucked up the sling, I'd already be airborne. One rope, a sling and a carabiner should be possible to manage for most people, even the retards.
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sungam
Jul 20, 2009, 10:34 PM
Post #108 of 108
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sittingduck wrote: One rope, a sling and a carabiner should be possible to manage for most people, even the retards. Well, even the pro's (Lynn Hill) fuck up tying in sometimes.
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