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lagarita
Jul 18, 2009, 2:06 PM
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I feel like I'm a little stuck at my current level of leading. I can't seem to break myself of leading anything higher than a 5.6. I've seen discussions of people finding routes were a fall would be clean and just DOING IT. (fall) Starting slowly; first falling at your last piece then a couple feet higher and so on and so fourth. Now I also don't want to put any unnecessary stress on my gear. (I suppose falling on nuts and tr-cams wouldn't be bad seeing as they are the least expensive.) So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? Background: I've been climbing for about 6 seasons and leading for three. I've never fallen on lead (cause I'm not pushing myself enough). I climb 5.8/.9 thanx, Sean
(This post was edited by lagarita on Jul 18, 2009, 2:07 PM)
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macblaze
Jul 18, 2009, 3:01 PM
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lagarita wrote: I feel like I'm a little stuck at my current level of leading. I can't seem to break myself of leading anything higher than a 5.6. I've seen discussions of people finding routes were a fall would be clean and just DOING IT. (fall) Starting slowly; first falling at your last piece then a couple feet higher and so on and so fourth. Now I also don't want to put any unnecessary stress on my gear. (I suppose falling on nuts and tr-cams wouldn't be bad seeing as they are the least expensive.) So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? Background: I've been climbing for about 6 seasons and leading for three. I've never fallen on lead (cause I'm not pushing myself enough). I climb 5.8/.9 thanx, Sean Is it falling or falling on gear that's the problem. I've been climbing roughly the same a mount of time as you but only for the last 2 years on gear. I got a lot of falls out of the way sport climbing. I've yet to fall on gear but my confidence level is definitely higher. Just a thought...
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camhead
Jul 18, 2009, 3:20 PM
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For the original poster, go to the gym, toprope a LOT, and get stronger. You do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, have to start taking falls on 5.6's as a way of "progressing." A strong head, and willingness to fall and take calculated risks are essential, but part of having a strong head is judgement. For the most part, the lower a climb's grade is, the more likely you are to hit something as you fall. I know that you probably climb at the Gunks primarily, and that area is famous for steep easy routes, but even at the Gunks, most of the easy climbs have plenty of places you can break your ankles. Ideally, AFTER you have gotten stronger physically, you should be able to push yourself on 5.9-ish, G-rated routes with less ledge fall potential. Think overhanging handcracks. But don't rush it. Falls will come naturally. Oh, and forget the whole "should I fall on nuts or cams?" question. You should be equally willing and prepared to fall on both, provided they are good placements.
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sspssp
Jul 18, 2009, 11:16 PM
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lagarita wrote: Now I also don't want to put any unnecessary stress on my gear. (I suppose falling on nuts and tr-cams wouldn't be bad seeing as they are the least expensive.) So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? You can get better without falling (that's how the "old school" mostly got better), but it takes longer. If you can, find cracks that you can sew up. You should be able to lead 5.8/5.9 by putting a piece in every ~4 feet. You might pump out and turn into a hang dog/yard fest--so what. Keep coming back to the route and try leading a little higher above the gear each time. A fall on a well placed cam shouldn't stress it. And yes, intentionally falling can help build trust and get over the fear of leading above your gear. Finally, get a copy of the Rock Warrior's Way
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harpo_the_climber
Jul 18, 2009, 11:29 PM
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I have seen two published references to intentionally falling to get over your fear of falling. One was in a climbing magazine and described taking clean falls on bolts on sport routes. The other was a video about intentionally falling on lead in the gym. Neither reccomended delibertaly falling on trad gear to get over your fear of falling, I think because they didn't want to damage gear or risk it pulling (judging the chances of your trad gear holding if you fall is one thing, but deliberatley falling on it is another.)
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bill413
Jul 19, 2009, 1:53 AM
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If you do fall on gear, don't just blindly assume it will hold another fall in the same place. Check the placement after each fall. As you noticed, a significant number of those advocating "just fall" are doing so on bolts, outdoors or indoors. Falling on gear is a little less safe because of all the variables in placements. But - if you want ot progress leading (or even lead in a rational manner) you MUST TRUST YOUR GEAR. It's hard to develop that trust at an emotional level, but that's what's needed.
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rtwilli4
Jul 19, 2009, 2:08 AM
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I am in the same boat. Won't push myself to my climbing limit because I don't want to fall on gear. I climb .11 and sometimes .12 sport and fall all the time, but on gear I only climb about 5.8, sometimes .9. I still have a lot to learn about selecting and placing gear quickly, but I think I could be a .10 trad climber right now if I wasn't worried about the gear popping. I know I place good gear, it's just a mental thing I guess. That said, I'm certainly not going to go falling on purpose. That just doesn't seam smart. I'm sure it will happen when the time is right. Until then I'll just be my normal wimpy self.
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Hennessey
Jul 19, 2009, 2:14 AM
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If your fear is falling in general than fall on bolts. Fall at the bolt, then a foot or two higher then a little higher each time until you are comfortable. A little more of a controlled enviorment like a gym might ease your fears a little too. If you fear is falling on gear than, set up a toprope being belayed by one belayer and a have lead rope being belayed by another belayer. Climb up to a decent height and place a couple of pieces clipping your lead rope through each piece. Climb up to your last piece placed. Once comfortable with your placements have your toprope belayer give you some slack and fall on your gear. This way if your last placement fails than the toprope will catch your fall. This could help you work on your placements and get over the fear of falling on them at the same time.
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vegastradguy
Jul 19, 2009, 4:32 AM
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lagarita wrote: Now I also don't want to put any unnecessary stress on my gear. (I suppose falling on nuts and tr-cams wouldn't be bad seeing as they are the least expensive.) while you might occasionally mangle a piece of gear because you didnt place it or sling it correctly, or maybe that was the only pro you were going to get, through general use and holding falls, trad gear is not going to get damaged at all. so, dont worry so much about that. in terms of progressing...if you've been climbing for 6 years and you cant lead above 5.6, you've most likely got a head thing going on, not so much a strength thing. that said, a little more strength can go a long way for your head- knowing that you have the strength to climb 5.10 can make climbing 5.7s on lead alot easier when you're new. i'll second camhead's advice- go to the gym, especially if you're climbing at the gunks. man, that place...you need strength and a solid lead head- i remember the one trip i took there when i was climbing some 5.6's thinking these routes required alot more attention than 5.6s anywhere else...
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bradley3297
Jul 19, 2009, 4:45 AM
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This is some of the worst bullshit posts ive ever read.... wtf guys. top roping in the gym is going to cull your fear of falling. give me a break. thats bullshit. lead climbing is the only way to get over the fear. just stay on well protected routes until you are comfortable at a grade. You have to put yourself out there on the line to get better. assess obvious hazards as you climb and protect accordingly to minimize those hazards.
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vegastradguy
Jul 19, 2009, 4:48 AM
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bradley3297 wrote: This is some of the worst bullshit posts ive ever read.... wtf guys. top roping in the gym is going to cull your fear of falling. give me a break. thats bullshit. lead climbing is the only way to get over the fear. just stay on well protected routes until you are comfortable at a grade. You have to put yourself out there on the line to get better. assess obvious hazards as you climb and protect accordingly to minimize those hazards. top roping in a gym wont cull your fear of falling so much in and of itself, but instead builds your strength, and as a result, can improve your lead head just because you know that you can hang on to that jug for a long time. this isnt true for everyone, but it was for me. gaining strength in the gym went a long way when i made the jump to leading .10 on gear... that said, of course it isnt the total solution in and of itself, there's alot more to it and you give some great advice for when you're out on the rock.
(This post was edited by vegastradguy on Jul 19, 2009, 4:49 AM)
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karmiclimber
Jul 19, 2009, 5:13 AM
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I don't know if this is pertinent coming from a sport climber or not. I've taken controlled falls on lead...to help get over the fear. It didn't really help me, lol, it might be a control issue...but the scariest falls are the ones you aren't prepared for. Not that there is more risk, but if you know you are going to fall...wheres the thrill in that. From someone who has seconded many trad routes and lead one...I see where you are coming from...sounds like an issue of learning to trust your placement? It might give you more confidence to climb with a more experienced tradder...which will allow you to break that mental barrier of insecurity.
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camhead
Jul 19, 2009, 5:38 PM
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shockabuku wrote: vegastradguy wrote: while you might occasionally mangle a piece of gear because you didnt place it or sling it correctly, or maybe that was the only pro you were going to get, through general use and holding falls, trad gear is not going to get damaged at all. so, dont worry so much about that. I can't believe it took this many posts for someone to say this. once again, the idiosyncrasies of the Gunks (where I assumethe OP climbs) come into play. Most of the placements there are horizontal. It is much easier to damage a horizontally placed cam than one in a vertical crack.
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thegrassr00ts
Jul 19, 2009, 9:13 PM
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I'm an 11+/12 sport climber who just this year started delving into trad. The appeal of massive multipitch walls and exposure was too great to ignore. Let me first say I have taken too many falls on bolts and have become kind of numb to them, yet falling on gear still scares the crap out of me. I climb at a much lower grade when climbing trad than when climbing sport. I'm talking like 5.7/5.8. I think there are a few key points to take from this thread though. Falling on bolts, toprope, or gear in no way prepares for you for climbing or makes you more comfortable at it. If you have been climbing for six years then you know that you reach a point where there are only a few situations you are going to fall at so look at those situations. The first situation you fall is if you get pumped out. As a trad climber you have to know your limits and see this coming so if you are about to hit the crux and aren't feeling super strong, maybe it would be best to hang for a minute. The only way to alleviate the fear of falling from a pump to is climb smart and confident. Second, the unexpected fall. For example, a hold breaks, foot slips, reach for a non-existent hold, etc. Nothing will prepare you for these falls because even simulated falls have the element of control. The good news about these is that they are typically over before you realize they began. The only thing to do to alleviate this fear is to trust your gear. Finally, there is the fall when you are facing a difficult move that you are unsure if you are going to be able to stick and move off of. This sounds like your biggest fear. You want to make the move, think you can do it, but the possibility of falling on your own gear makes you hesitate and turn back. This is where training comes in. I learned (and continue to learn) trad from a way old school climber and he has taught me a couple of valuable things. He has an incredibly politically incorrect way of describing his view of trad climbing but I think it may help you. He always says that the protection you place is an abortion, and you, the climber, are the prophylactic. When your trad climbing, not falling, being confident in your abilities, and making good decisions are your primary protection. You should only rely on gear if all else fails. He also believes in minimal gear placements. If the climbing is coming easily to you, there is no need to place gear. Training and running out easy routes really helped me get over my fear of falling on trad. Training gives you the confidence your not going to fall and running out easy routes makes you more comfortable feeling unsafe. I guess my point is, instead of being scared of falling on your own gear, be confident your not going to fall.
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vegastradguy
Jul 19, 2009, 9:38 PM
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thegrassr00ts wrote: He also believes in minimal gear placements. If the climbing is coming easily to you, there is no need to place gear. Training and running out easy routes really helped me get over my fear of falling on trad. Training gives you the confidence your not going to fall and running out easy routes makes you more comfortable feeling unsafe. I guess my point is, instead of being scared of falling on your own gear, be confident your not going to fall. i would argue that this is advice for folks who are well above the 5.6 mark in their trad leading, regardless of experience- as it is a purely mental game that is also purely optional, depending on your goals as a climber. i would also argue that running out easy routes can backfire on you, especially if a hold breaks or some other unforseen event happens- now instead of a 15' fall, you're looking at a 50' fall over low-angle/ledge filled terrain. (of course, this is like the pot calling the kettle black, as i am the king of running it out on easy terrain in red rock.) i liked the politically incorrect advice, though- thats totally inappropriate, but very true in a nasty kind of way.
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rgold
Jul 20, 2009, 2:29 AM
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You might find these comments I made in another thread of some use. In addition, I honestly think the whole idea, "get used to falling so you can lead harder," which makes sense when the time comes to break into some of the higher trad grades, is completely wrong-headed for a mid-fifth-class leader. You do not want to be more comfortable about falling, you want to be more sure you won't fall, if for no other reason that falling on medium fifth-class trad is often a very bad idea, and some completely irrelevant exercise in air time in a gym or on a sport climb can at best desensitize you to genuine dangers. It is, of course, essential to top-rope, boulder, and gym-climb to build strength and endurance, learn new moves, and redefine the level of insecurity you can tolerate. But do these things with an eye to trad leading, so that you (1) increase your awareness of when you are marginal (rather than training yourself to ignore it and forge on), and (2) learn something useful about your "half-way point" in endurance. If you are top-roping outdoors, make a resolution to downclimb everything you climb up. You will climb differently if you have to keep a line of mental "bread crumbs" for the descent, and the mentality involved with help you to extract yourself from trouble before it bites you when you are on the lead. Part of being realistically confident is feeling that you can get out of trouble when it starts. The gym and sport climbing teach you to move up, but the demands of trad below the highest grades are to move down. Finally, learn to be yourself and enjoy what you can enjoy. Don't let anyone else tell you what grade you should be climbing, and then prescribe dangerous and irrelevant exercises to get you there. Ask yourself why exactly you think you are "stuck" where you are. In my experience, everyone who keeps climbing gets better, and the people who keep climbing do it because they get pleasure from the experience. Don't let anyone take that away from you, and don't take it away from yourself in the pursuit of a few silly numbers.
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granite_grrl
Jul 20, 2009, 12:50 PM
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I think there are two parts in leading gear climbs that are hard for you. 1) confidence in your gear 2) confidence in yourself I don't think you need to practice falling on gear for #1, experience goes a long way for this. #2 is, in a lot of ways, is harder to build up though. If you're not confident in yourself and your climbing you'll never climb into the unknown when onsighting, you'll have that nagging self doubt which has no place in trad climbing. That said, if you're only climbing 5.8-5.9 maybe 5.6 isn't a bad grade for you to sit at. I think the idea of spending some time increasing the grade you climb at will do quite a bit for you. If your technique isn't consolidated, #2 is obviously not going to be there.
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hansundfritz
Jul 20, 2009, 1:27 PM
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I'll just second what some folks are saying: get super confident at doing moves a few grades higher than your lead goal. This is the best thing to do for your lead head. I've sometimes get a little spooked on easy stuff -- and regain my composure by recalling the fact that I can top-rope stuff that is much harder. That is the beauty of the guidebook. "Williams calls this a 6. I can do that; I've led lots of 6s here.... Now where's that next hand-hold. Ah, there it is. Phew." There are some guys who lead at or very near their limit (Dave McLeod), but they're the exception. Most of us would be wise to lead at least two grades below our outdoor top-rope max. As someone up-thread stated, our ability to do the moves is our primary source of safety. Although not really what the OP was after, I also will second the idea of NOT running it out on easy stuff, especially early on in the pitch. You never know about nature. I nearly decked on the first pitch of Hawk after coming nose-to-nose with a copperhead. Stupid. And, lastly, just enjoy climbing. Pushing grades is fun, but climbing is more fun. As an older climber, my only regret is not climbing more when I was younger and had greater freedom. I do not think about grades (much).
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hendo
Jul 20, 2009, 4:47 PM
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rgold wrote: Finally, learn to be yourself and enjoy what you can enjoy. Don't let anyone else tell you what grade you should be climbing, and then prescribe dangerous and irrelevant exercises to get you there. Ask yourself why exactly you think you are "stuck" where you are. In my experience, everyone who keeps climbing gets better, and the people who keep climbing do it because they get pleasure from the experience. Don't let anyone take that away from you, and don't take it away from yourself in the pursuit of a few silly numbers. I'll expand on this. (Or you can read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers for a long explication.) To become competent at something, you have to put in the miles, lots of them. It's as simple (and hard) as that. It's been recognized in sports and music that you have to practise for 10,000 hours to gain a thorough competence in your specialty. Here's a theoretical approach for the OP. Go through the Gunks guidebook with a highlighter pen and mark every route 5.6 and under. Then spend the next five years climbing those and nothing but those. Do them all, over and over. Don't, even for a moment, consider any route graded above 5.6. Climb eight hours a day, seven days a week, for five years. Then ... you'll find you can handle 5.7s. If you can't dedicate that sort of time, then it's reasonable to expect "progress" to take longer. I see similarities between climbers who are pushing really quickly and musicians who push really quickly. Someone can get to Grade 3 on piano and then pick up Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and feel he should be working on it. Yes, he'll slowly make his way through it over the years but it will be a struggle. The same with a climber who's thinking only of the gymnastic grade and not all the other skills required in trad climbing. If it's a constant struggle, then you're probably pushing too quickly.
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billcoe_
Jul 20, 2009, 4:58 PM
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rgold wrote: Finally, learn to be yourself and enjoy what you can enjoy. Don't let anyone else tell you what grade you should be climbing, and then prescribe dangerous and irrelevant exercises to get you there. Ask yourself why exactly you think you are "stuck" where you are. In my experience, everyone who keeps climbing gets better, and the people who keep climbing do it because they get pleasure from the experience. Don't let anyone take that away from you, and don't take it away from yourself in the pursuit of a few silly numbers.
rgold wrote: The most important principle for using trad protection, especiallly but not exclusively if you are just learning, is redundancy. The idea is to develop a system you trust while maintaining a healthy scepticism about the reliability of any one piece. Try not to put yourself in the position of having a single piece, no matter how "bombproof," between you and disaster. Placing more than gear than seems to be essential requires discipline and endurance, marks of a good trad climber. Failing safely is a better longevity option than betting the farm on a single piece. Nonetheless, all climbing to some extent, but trad climbing intrinsically, involves risk. A lot of climbs have places you better not fall from, and this is part of the essence of trad climbing---performing in a cool and controlled manner when confronting a risky situation. Neutralizing danger, not just by protection skills, but also by climbing skills, is part of the game. (Unaulterated difficulty unencumbered by concerns of mortality is the province of sport climbing.) Arguments about whether or not falling is a good idea always have these provisions: "if the gear is bomber, go for it," which is fair enough, but such pronouncements avoid the real problem by defining it out of existence. Many accidents happen when the bomber gear turns out not to be bomber. The climber (1) misjudged the pro (something that is quite possible for experts, let alone beginners), (2) failed to build sufficient redundancy into the system, and then (3) misjudged their ability and went for it in a situation when they were not well protected. As for judging pro, I concur with the posters who recommend aid climbing. Redundancy is a state of mind combined with the will to carry it out. The most difficult issue is how to climb without falling when falling is a bad idea. (For example, if there is one piece between you and the ground and you can't back it up, then falling is a bad idea.) Here I think modern trends can inculcate bad habits. Gym climbing, sport climbing, and bouldering all emphasize moving up in the most marginal of situations. There is a risk of developing a tunnel-vision mentality that, first of all, accepts marginal moves even though the consequences of failure are catastrophic, perhaps not even noticing that the climber has gone from control to high risk status, and secondly, that blinds the climber to both the need and the opportunity to climb down to rest, regroup, and yes, in some cases, to retreat. Mental discipline is the primary tool for avoiding these situations, but this discipline is not something acquired in the gym or on sport climbs. Here are some exercises that may be of some use: (1) When climbing in the gym or on sport routes, try to be conscious of how marginal you are. (This does not mean reducing the difficulty level, just striving for heightened awareness.) From a trad perspective, falling may be ok, but an unexpected fall is not good. Know when you are on the edge. (2) A lot of falls on steep ground happen when the leader runs out of gas. Try to develop a sense of your "half-way point," because this is one of the moments when you have to decide whether to move up or down. For example, a gym exercise is to select a challenging route and then see how high on it you can get and still climb all the way back down without falling. (3) Develop the mental habit of filing away "retreat data." This can make the difference between stepping down and falling. (For example, when you step over a small roof, the holds underneath disappear. Did you make a mental note of features above the roof that will help you locate the holds underneath?) (4) Don't neglect the building of a base of climbing below your limit, climbing in which you are relatively comfortable but are also frequently in the "must not fall" zone. A steady diet of well-protected hard climbing at or near your limit, while essential for raising your climbing level, may shortchange you on control and calmness when things get dicey, as they will, sooner or later... Not a hell of a lot to add to any of those typical Rich Goldstone 10 star posts. I will point out, that falling on a 5.6 is often much much worse than falling on a 5.11. Looking specifically at the possible falls of each route, especially above you before you get there or perhaps even leave the ground and crafting a protection, resting, climbing and a comprehensive contingency (if it goes bad and you fall, get hurt or just need to bail) strategy is what it's all about. Given the multitude of possible scenarios you will be encountering, this is not something which is learned quickly. It can be learned though. Good luck
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 5:55 PM
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hansundfritz wrote: There are some guys who lead at or very near their limit (Dave McLeod), but they're the exception. That's just plain wrong.
In reply to: Most of us would be wise to lead at least two grades below our outdoor top-rope max. What?! Maybe for your first few months of leading.
In reply to: As someone up-thread stated, our ability to do the moves is our primary source of safety. So is your ability to judge the protectability of the route and your ability to place reliable pro. When the route has good pro, once you know what you're doing, by all means, lead at your limit. Jay
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sspssp
Jul 20, 2009, 6:24 PM
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shockabuku wrote: vegastradguy wrote: while you might occasionally mangle a piece of gear because you didnt place it or sling it correctly, or maybe that was the only pro you were going to get, through general use and holding falls, trad gear is not going to get damaged at all. so, dont worry so much about that. I can't believe it took this many posts for someone to say this. Welll, there was this previous post:
sspssp wrote: A fall on a well placed cam shouldn't stress it.
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sspssp
Jul 20, 2009, 6:25 PM
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But if you have problems trusting your placements, doing some aid climbing is a great way to get better and learn what does and does not hold. Unfortunately, aid climbing does tend to mangle gear.
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curt
Jul 20, 2009, 6:34 PM
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jt512 wrote: hansundfritz wrote: As someone up-thread stated, our ability to do the moves is our primary source of safety. So is your ability to judge the protectability of the route and your ability to place reliable pro. When the route has good pro, once you know what you're doing, by all means, lead at your limit. Jay That's fine in theory, but is often inapplicable to harder trad climbing. For instance, I can't think of any "G" rated 5.11 (or harder) climbs in the Gunks. There may be a few--but they are very rare. It's climbing in environments such as this where rgold's advice regarding down-climbing, etc., become absolutely critical to safety. Curt
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hansundfritz
Jul 20, 2009, 6:43 PM
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JT512: I guess I'm feeling a little more cautious this week -- having been on the scene of the recent fatality at Seneca.
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cracklover
Jul 20, 2009, 7:12 PM
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There's a lot of discussion here about whether and when you should be pushing yourself to your own personal limit when trad climbing. The true answer to this question is that no-one but you can know when the time is right for you. It's just like when you decide you want to start lead climbing. Everyone's different. I was a happy toprope climber right up until the point when I was no longer satisfied with that, and knew I wanted to start leading. This is key:
rgold wrote: Finally, learn to be yourself and enjoy what you can enjoy. Don't let anyone else tell you what grade you should be climbing, and then prescribe dangerous and irrelevant exercises to get you there. Ask yourself why exactly you think you are "stuck" where you are. In my experience, everyone who keeps climbing gets better, and the people who keep climbing do it because they get pleasure from the experience. Don't let anyone take that away from you, and don't take it away from yourself in the pursuit of a few silly numbers. There is a natural progression in trad climbing: You put in plenty of mileage on stuff that's dead easy for you. Then, as your ability and interest leads you to harder grades, you pursue them. I'm sorry to say that it really is as simple as that. You climb what you want to be climbing. Personally, it took me three years of leading before I gained the experience and confidence to start doing routes containing sequences that I might not be able to complete without falling (5.9+ and 5.10 at the time). I still didn't fall much, but I was close enough to my limit that I knew I might. It was scary as hell, and I wasn't always up for leading at my absolute limit, every time I went out. And that's fine. What took me three years takes other people much less time! And still others may never want to go there. All of these are equally valid options! However, the one thing that's not a good option is falling on terrain that is unsafe (this usually means blocky 5.low numbers), or falling before you've developed a good gear placing ability. If you're ready to start pushing your limits, but know that your absolute toprope limit (5.8) does not allow you safe falls, then camhead's advise is the way to go. But if you're just not ready, then that's fine! Cheers, GO
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cracklover
Jul 20, 2009, 7:20 PM
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: hansundfritz wrote: As someone up-thread stated, our ability to do the moves is our primary source of safety. So is your ability to judge the protectability of the route and your ability to place reliable pro. When the route has good pro, once you know what you're doing, by all means, lead at your limit. Jay That's fine in theory, but is often inapplicable to harder trad climbing. For instance, I can't think of any "G" rated 5.11 (or harder) climbs in the Gunks. There may be a few--but they are very rare. It's climbing in environments such as this where rgold's advice regarding down-climbing, etc., become absolutely critical to safety. Curt This is a valid point. Depending on what your limit is, different venues may or may not be safe places to push that limit. At the Gunks, this point does come much lower than at many places. There are a number of 5.8, and many many 5.9s with good, safe, clean falls at the crux. Offhand, I can't think of anywhere else like that (aside from sport crags). But the flip side of this is that if your limit is 5.11 and 5.12, protection slims out fast at the Gunks. Many places are the opposite, where 5.8 routes are low-angle choss with few good gear placements, and the 5.12 routes are splitter cracks! GO
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jt512
Jul 20, 2009, 7:57 PM
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cracklover wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: hansundfritz wrote: As someone up-thread stated, our ability to do the moves is our primary source of safety. So is your ability to judge the protectability of the route and your ability to place reliable pro. When the route has good pro, once you know what you're doing, by all means, lead at your limit. Jay That's fine in theory, but is often inapplicable to harder trad climbing. For instance, I can't think of any "G" rated 5.11 (or harder) climbs in the Gunks. There may be a few--but they are very rare. It's climbing in environments such as this where rgold's advice regarding down-climbing, etc., become absolutely critical to safety. Curt This is a valid point. Depending on what your limit is, different venues may or may not be safe places to push that limit. At the Gunks, this point does come much lower than at many places. There are a number of 5.8, and many many 5.9s with good, safe, clean falls at the crux. Offhand, I can't think of anywhere else like that (aside from sport crags). Joshua Tree. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 20, 2009, 7:58 PM)
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swoopee
Jul 20, 2009, 8:00 PM
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Stone Mtn, NC should get your head screwed on straight..
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cracklover
Jul 20, 2009, 8:03 PM
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: hansundfritz wrote: As someone up-thread stated, our ability to do the moves is our primary source of safety. So is your ability to judge the protectability of the route and your ability to place reliable pro. When the route has good pro, once you know what you're doing, by all means, lead at your limit. Jay That's fine in theory, but is often inapplicable to harder trad climbing. For instance, I can't think of any "G" rated 5.11 (or harder) climbs in the Gunks. There may be a few--but they are very rare. It's climbing in environments such as this where rgold's advice regarding down-climbing, etc., become absolutely critical to safety. Curt This is a valid point. Depending on what your limit is, different venues may or may not be safe places to push that limit. At the Gunks, this point does come much lower than at many places. There are a number of 5.8, and many many 5.9s with good, safe, clean falls at the crux. Offhand, I can't think of anywhere else like that (aside from sport crags). Joshua Tree. Jay Good example! Those two places are remarkably similar in a lot of ways, though diametrically opposite in the actual style of climbing. GO
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dhorgan
Jul 22, 2009, 4:12 AM
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lagarita wrote: So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? Sounds like people are in agreement that intentionally pitching off your average Gunks 5.4 is questionable, and I'm glad to hear it. And I think it's also right that it's good to just enjoy whatever level you're at. But the OP seems like he wants to improve...it is fun to feel like you're learning things and getting more skilled. I'm wondering if the OP could provide a little more info on what's holding him back. Is leading 5.6 actually really mellow for you, or is that kind of an epic too? What happened when you tried to lead a 5.7? Fumbled with gear? Got pumped and had to hang? Have you tried to lead some harder sport or gym stuff, and what happened with that?
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cush
Jul 22, 2009, 2:56 PM
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the best solution you're going to have is to keep climbing. get milage above gear, and keep pushing the grades a little little little bit at a time. eventually, you're going to fall and you'll scare the shit out of yourself. then someday it'll happen again, and again and again. eventually this will build trust in your gear without having you take intentional falls which, most of the time, are a lot more mentally taxing than an unforeseen, surprise fall.
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mar_leclerc
Jul 27, 2009, 1:48 AM
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I find that as long as I know that the gear I place is solid I can make myself forget about falling and commit to each move. You should always be aware of where your gear is and the consequences of a fall and place pro accordingly but once the moves are protected forget about falling and commit.... if you fall you fall and you will be left hanging on your rope. Dont do this on 'serious' routes.... my only advice for serious routes, despite a good deal of experience in that area is to just not fall off.
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cracklover
Jul 27, 2009, 9:50 PM
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camhead wrote: mar_leclerc wrote: Dont do this on 'serious' routes.... my only advice for serious routes, despite a good deal of experience in that area is to just not fall off. The internet really isn't so different than real life. There's a story of a n00b wall climber, he'd been learning his aid systems, and had found his way to Yosemite Valley. Well he wanders into the Cafeteria and sees a big name wall climber. He walks right up, introduces himself, and tells the guy what an honor it is to meet him. Then he asks for the guru's opinion "What do you think I need to do to get ready for my first trip up El Cap?" The big name wall climber explains to the noob how he should start with several grade IV routes, work his way up, do Washington Column, yada yada. The n00b looks crestfallen. "But I'm only here for two weeks!" he says. "I heard that your first real aid climb was a new route up El Cap! So why do I need to spend all that time working up through the grades?" "You're right," says the big name climber. "My first wall was a new route up El Cap. But the difference is that I didn't have to ask nobody in the Cafeteria any how-to before doing it." Cheers! G
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hafilax
Jul 27, 2009, 11:36 PM
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At some point in trad climbing you have to give yourself up to the possibility of falling on your gear in order to go beyond the current plateau. To commit to a crux above gear you must know that the combination of your climbing ability and your gear will keep you safe. You may never actually fall on the gear but being able to release your mind from worrying about how safe you gear is will be a giant leap. That said, nobody here can tell you that your gear is good or anything about your ability to judge your safety as a climber. I discuss these kinds of things with my climbing partners all the time. They generally have far more confidence in my climbing abilities than I do and push me to push myself knowing that I have a lot of mileage placing gear and am generally pretty safe. (I've said this many times) My hardest leads have not only been on gear, on-sight but in the middle of committing multi-pitch climbs so yes you can climb at your limit leading gear and taking falls (and I still don't recommend doing it that way). You just have to have the knowledge of how to do that safely.
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lagarita
Aug 2, 2009, 4:30 PM
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dhorgan wrote: lagarita wrote: So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? I'm wondering if the OP could provide a little more info on what's holding him back. Is leading 5.6 actually really mellow for you, or is that kind of an epic too? What happened when you tried to lead a 5.7? Fumbled with gear? Got pumped and had to hang? Have you tried to lead some harder sport or gym stuff, and what happened with that? I find that if I've followed on a route, even if it's only been once, I have a lot more confidence in the route and I have no reservations. I rarely put in a panic piece and hang on it. I usually make the decision that I'm going to climb this route our not, end of story. As for the recommendations to get to the gym or climb on bolts, those aren't that easy. The nearest gym is about 1 1/2 hours away and the only place I know that has bolted routes in the north east is Rumney. Someone mentioned climb what you want to climb and that's exactly what I want to do, I just wish I wasn't held back by the grade. I find a line that I like and I want it. I really enjoy solid vertical hand and fists cracks and roofs. I can except a slow progression, I just want to be sure I'm doing the best things to help that progression. Thanxs
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dhorgan
Aug 3, 2009, 1:47 AM
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lagarita wrote: I can except a slow progression, I just want to be sure I'm doing the best things to help that progression. Thanxs Well, for me, what's been really helpful in making good improvements recently (more than I've made in a long time) has been: -making sure my clips are super-smooth by practicing clipping at home until it's perfect -making sure my rack is in good order (organized, no snarls in runners, etc) before setting off -the important one: precise focus on foot placement: eye the hold and move in one smooth movement from the previous hold onto the next one, with no scrabbling and scraping. Feel that it's solid, take confidence from it, and repeat. Try to place your foot exactly where you want it to be on the first try. all three of the above combine to let you feel solid and in control, and up you cruise. Or at least, it's been helping me... Good luck!
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boymeetsrock
Aug 3, 2009, 6:23 PM
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lagarita wrote: dhorgan wrote: lagarita wrote: So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? I'm wondering if the OP could provide a little more info on what's holding him back. Is leading 5.6 actually really mellow for you, or is that kind of an epic too? What happened when you tried to lead a 5.7? Fumbled with gear? Got pumped and had to hang? Have you tried to lead some harder sport or gym stuff, and what happened with that? I find that if I've followed on a route, even if it's only been once, I have a lot more confidence in the route and I have no reservations. I rarely put in a panic piece and hang on it. I usually make the decision that I'm going to climb this route our not, end of story. As for the recommendations to get to the gym or climb on bolts, those aren't that easy. The nearest gym is about 1 1/2 hours away and the only place I know that has bolted routes in the north east is Rumney. Someone mentioned climb what you want to climb and that's exactly what I want to do, I just wish I wasn't held back by the grade. I find a line that I like and I want it. I really enjoy solid vertical hand and fists cracks and roofs. I can except a slow progression, I just want to be sure I'm doing the best things to help that progression. Thanxs Unless I'm reading you wrong, this sounds to me like a confidence issue. If you are leading "harder" climbs when you have already climbed them, then you should be able to transition this to on-sight climbing. It sounds like this could be addressed in the areas of Route Finding and Confidence in your abilities. I might suggest that when following future climbs that you pretend the rope is not there (above you) and that you are leading. Spend time to consider where YOU would go next. Where would your next piece be, your next rest. Then assess how your judgment from below panned out as you continue up the route. I might also suggest that you "harden the fuck up!" OK that was rude. BUT. You've been climbing for some time now. Following. Leading. Placing and removing gear. Eventually you will have to trust yourself. Perhaps you approach a new climb with the intent to lead. The difficulty is well within you ability. You're still nervous, as previously stated. Look up the climb and find the early gear placements and rests. Then instead of committing to a "whole climb" commit to the first ten, twenty, thirty feet of that climb. 'I'll get to that placement/ rest, then assess the next moves.' Continue to encourage yourself along in this manner. If you get to that placement and are uncomfortable, you can retreat. If you are comfortable, you can continue on to the next placement. Also, anytime you retreat from a climb, treat it like you just fell. Pull the rope and then lead back up to your gear with the intention of climbing higher. As a personal anecdote, I used just this method on a recent climb. The climb was not hard for me, but the exposure was big, and the route mildly cryptic. So when I was scared (and I was a few time) I would break the climb down into 10 - 20 foot sections. I would find a good placement option or rest and move forward to that point. Then I would calm my nerves, and hash out the next section. OK I feel like I'm rambling now, but I've written what I wanted to. Hope it is on topic and helpful.
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boymeetsrock
Aug 3, 2009, 6:25 PM
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Edit the above to say "self confidence issue" as apposed to an issue of confidence in your gear/ placements.
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cracklover
Aug 3, 2009, 7:40 PM
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lagarita wrote: dhorgan wrote: lagarita wrote: So I guess what I'm asking is how do I break through to higher grades, is falling the only way? I'm wondering if the OP could provide a little more info on what's holding him back. Is leading 5.6 actually really mellow for you, or is that kind of an epic too? What happened when you tried to lead a 5.7? Fumbled with gear? Got pumped and had to hang? Have you tried to lead some harder sport or gym stuff, and what happened with that? I find that if I've followed on a route, even if it's only been once, I have a lot more confidence in the route and I have no reservations. I rarely put in a panic piece and hang on it. I usually make the decision that I'm going to climb this route our not, end of story. As for the recommendations to get to the gym or climb on bolts, those aren't that easy. The nearest gym is about 1 1/2 hours away and the only place I know that has bolted routes in the north east is Rumney. Someone mentioned climb what you want to climb and that's exactly what I want to do, I just wish I wasn't held back by the grade. I find a line that I like and I want it. I really enjoy solid vertical hand and fists cracks and roofs. I can except a slow progression, I just want to be sure I'm doing the best things to help that progression. Thanxs Hmm... now it just sounds like you're making excuses. They may be valid for how you want to live your life, but they're excuses, just the same. For example, if you agree with those who say that clipping bolts or gym climbing is what you need to get to the next level, it doesn't sound like the gym, Rumney (or Farley may be closer) is anywhere near so far away that you couldn't drive to them every weekend for a day trip. 1 1/2 hours? Please. Plenty of people in Boston climb at the Gunks regularly. That's 3.5 hours each way. Once at the gym or sport crag, climb motivated. Climb as hard as you can for as long as you can, one or two days every weekend, and I'd be amazed if you weren't climbing much harder than 5.8 very quickly. As far as you finding that trying to redpoint a route feels emotionally and physically easier than trying to onsight it - um, yeah, that's the case for every single climber. Unless you're that guy from Memento, OS climbing is hard. Just a fact of life. When you know where it goes, how the holds feel, where the gear is, - the climb becomes easier. Why would you expect anything different?
In reply to: Someone mentioned climb what you want to climb and that's exactly what I want to do, I just wish I wasn't held back by the grade. I find a line that I like and I want it. I really enjoy solid vertical hand and fists cracks and roofs. That was me who said that. And if the above is what you want to climb, what the hell are you doing climbing at the Gunks? I would not classify that as climbing what you want to climb. The Gunks just doesn't specialize in vertical to overhanging cracks. As for roofs - yeah, if you top out at leading 5.6, forget about being able to confidently pull roofs.
In reply to: I can except a slow progression, I just want to be sure I'm doing the best things to help that progression. Let me ask you this: how much time do you spend climbing? Because under a certain threshold, I don't think you'll see much or any progression. GO
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dhorgan
Aug 3, 2009, 9:30 PM
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cracklover wrote: Let me ask you this: how much time do you spend climbing? Because under a certain threshold, I don't think you'll see much or any progression. GO I'm a big believer in mileage too, but lately I've been trying to look harder at how I actually operate on the rock, and I'm seeing that I've been making a lot of really stupid mistakes for a really long time because I wasn't really stepping back and looking for patterns in what I was doing. Instead, I've just been trying to climb around the mistakes. Put another way, I've heard it said that "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Do you think maybe we set too much store in mileage, and not enough in really analyzing our technique and improving it? I know that the one is supposed to lead to the other, but I'm not sure it always works that way...
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bill413
Aug 3, 2009, 11:05 PM
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cracklover wrote: Let me ask you this: how much time do you spend climbing? Because under a certain threshold, I don't think you'll see much or any progression. I think this is a good question & observation. I'm curious if you could suggest a "threshold." I realize that it will vary from person to person, current level, type of climbing...YMMV, but it would be interesting to suggest what would be a valid commitment that we would expect to lead to improvement over the season vs. what would not lead to gains. My guess...two to three climbing outings (not necessarily full days) per week. But, I don't think single climb outings would do it.
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squishy654
Aug 4, 2009, 12:10 AM
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lagarita wrote: I've never fallen on lead (cause I'm not pushing myself enough). You already know the answer to this question... You don't need to fall, you need to push yourself, maybe you will fall maybe you won't, but you won't know till you try...go bold...
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ACJ
Aug 4, 2009, 1:09 AM
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Here is my history. I started top roping and did that for 3 months, then started sport climbing and had my first lead fall around my 5th month of climbing. Then I started trad climbing at the 9 month mark and had my first trad fall about 4 months after I started leading trad. My first sport fall was while trying to clip the chains on a 5.9, fun. My first trad fall was on Second Stanza, a 5.8+ roof that has bomb pro just underneath it. I had a great mentor take me out to that route who expected I would fall on it, knew the fall was safe, and knew the gear. The gear is strong, unless you are putting pieces in a horizontal placement they shouldn't really get damaged as long as they are correctly placed. I don't think you necessarily need to fall on lead. Have you fallen on top rope? set up an anchor and find a safe place to take some TR falls with a LITTLE slack out. Every time you fall, assess what happened. Watch your breathing and body posture. LOOK where you are going, you will be surprised that will a little work you can start to pick your impact points with the rock. Be extremely aware of the rope when you start to learn to fall. If you get tangled in it you can have a nasty day. Once you are ready to fall on lead try it on sport or put in a "nest" of gear. Throw 3 BOMBER pieces in the crack within a foot of each other and on a route that is STEEP. You can also top rope your favorite well protected 5.9, mock lead it so you know what's up, then go for the lead! Lastly, if you have never taken a fall, then you have never been caught by one. I am almost never afraid of the fall, but am scared that the belayer will drop me (yep I got dropped once, thank god for helmets) until they have proven they can catch me by doing so. Learn how to give soft catches and ensure that your partner knows how to as well, it will help in the long run.
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cracklover
Aug 4, 2009, 3:46 PM
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dhorgan wrote: cracklover wrote: Let me ask you this: how much time do you spend climbing? Because under a certain threshold, I don't think you'll see much or any progression. GO I'm a big believer in mileage too, but lately I've been trying to look harder at how I actually operate on the rock, and I'm seeing that I've been making a lot of really stupid mistakes for a really long time because I wasn't really stepping back and looking for patterns in what I was doing. Instead, I've just been trying to climb around the mistakes. Put another way, I've heard it said that "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Do you think maybe we set too much store in mileage, and not enough in really analyzing our technique and improving it? I know that the one is supposed to lead to the other, but I'm not sure it always works that way... If you're already getting the mileage, but you're stuck at a plateau, then sure, it makes sense to figure out what else you need to change. But I'm all about going for the low hanging fruit first. And if you're only getting out once every couple of weeks, and then, not in an efficient climb-your-ass-off kinda way, well... the potential for growth from just climbing more is enormous. GO
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cracklover
Aug 4, 2009, 3:53 PM
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bill413 wrote: cracklover wrote: Let me ask you this: how much time do you spend climbing? Because under a certain threshold, I don't think you'll see much or any progression. I think this is a good question & observation. I'm curious if you could suggest a "threshold." I realize that it will vary from person to person, current level, type of climbing...YMMV, but it would be interesting to suggest what would be a valid commitment that we would expect to lead to improvement over the season vs. what would not lead to gains. My guess...two to three climbing outings (not necessarily full days) per week. But, I don't think single climb outings would do it. My personal experience suggests that if you're a total beginner in any sport, you'll make gains every time you go out, almost independent of frequency. Beyond that, it seems like 1X per week = maintenance, 2X per week = borderline (depending on other factors), and 3X per week = growth. That's just my experience, YMMV. GO
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healyje
Aug 4, 2009, 4:15 PM
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lagarita wrote: I rarely put in a panic piece and hang on it. In general, try to avoid doing this - it's 'sprad' climbing - sport climbing on gear. It's pretty counterproductive when it comes to developing the right mindset. Better to downclimb to a rest or, in cases where you likely won't be hurt, just fall.
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bill413
Aug 4, 2009, 4:41 PM
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cracklover wrote: My personal experience suggests that if you're a total beginner in any sport, you'll make gains every time you go out, almost independent of frequency. Yep - totally agree with this.
In reply to: Beyond that, it seems like 1X per week = maintenance, 2X per week = borderline (depending on other factors), and 3X per week = growth. Seems pretty reasonable. Yeah.
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dhorgan
Aug 4, 2009, 8:00 PM
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healyje wrote: lagarita wrote: I rarely put in a panic piece and hang on it. In general, try to avoid doing this - it's 'sprad' climbing - sport climbing on gear. It's pretty counterproductive when it comes to developing the right mindset. Better to downclimb to a rest or, in cases where you likely won't be hurt, just fall. I second the "downclimb to a rest" concept. A very strong climber friend of my does this a lot, and I'm trying to do it more (although mostly I'm finding I was actually climbing nowhere near my limit after all and just climb through the crux). But if you just take a peek into the crux and set some good gear and climb down without hanging you'll have: -bomber gear at the crux -a rest -great beta for the crux -an onsight/flash ascent -the satisfaction of having stayed in control in a difficult situation, which will help you someday when you CAN'T downclimb to a rest That's a lot of good things to have! And the "just fall if it's safe to fall" is good too, because in most case it'll turn out that you won't actually fall. "Rock Warrior's Way" talks about this: basically if you think you're going to fall, and the fall is safe (or, really, especially if the fall isn't safe!) do anything else except say "Take!" Climb another move. Place some gear. Downclimb. Jump off. Anything but hang. I've been astounded at how powerful this turns out to be: the vast majority of the time, I was nowhere near falling and ended up being able to do the move.
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TarHeelEMT
Sep 2, 2009, 6:56 PM
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swoopee wrote: Stone Mtn, NC should get your head screwed on straight.. True that
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Gmburns2000
Sep 2, 2009, 7:21 PM
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sspssp wrote: But if you have problems trusting your placements, doing some aid climbing is a great way to get better and learn what does and does not hold. Unfortunately, aid climbing does tend to mangle gear. You know, learning to aid GREATLY improved my lead head. I dunno, but the trust that came from weighting piece after piece really made a difference for me, much more so than simply getting stronger or taking practice falls ever did and I tried both of those a fair amount specifically trying to help my lead head. It's a pain in the ass way of going about it, but I have to agree with this.
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