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MentalTunnel
Jul 22, 2009, 5:58 AM
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I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off. Mark Twight suggests a Bachli Seilbremse which I believe is the below device:
http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/...ssin-Seilbremsen.htm
It seems to just have the loop to one side and a way to add another way to secure it so it cannot be dropped. Does anyone know if it is possible to get one in North America?
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patto
Jul 22, 2009, 6:18 AM
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If you can't hold onto your belay device while climbing im not sure how you can manage to lead climb. It really isn't that hard.
If your concerned about what to do after dropping your belay device then that is another issue. It is not solved by by getting a so called undroppable belay device.
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Alpine07
Jul 22, 2009, 6:22 AM
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You could just tie a piece of cord on to a normal belay device. Then you can just clip the loop of cord to anything. And there ya have it, a drop proof belay device. It works quite well and you don't have to buy a new device. Though it would still be possible to drop... So I might suggest some sort of lobster cord attachment with auto locking biners, and don't forget the load releasing hitches (you know what that static cord is like to fall on).
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yankinoz
Jul 22, 2009, 6:34 AM
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ATC
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Guran
Jul 22, 2009, 7:43 AM
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Simple as that.
The complete idiots guide to not dropping the device:
1) Hold atc and belay biner spine with one hand. Open biner gate and remove from gear loop. (*)
2) Still holding on to both device and biner, attach biner to belay loop.
3) Thread the rope through the slot(s) in the device.
4) Open biner gate and insert rope in biner. Should you fumble now, the device is most likely held by rope friction.
5) Lock biner.
6) Done.
(*) this is the only time you might drop the device along with the biner. If you are not able to transfer a biner with attached belay device from a gear loop to your belay loop without dropping it, please never ever climb above me or anyone else.
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docburner
Jul 22, 2009, 8:36 AM
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You probably can leave a zapomat always locked to your belay loop. I think it would work.
Even though they look pretty sketch they work pretty well. They are like a good autolocker to give the people that belay with an ATC but can't seem to figure out how to use a grigri without shorting.
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reverse_dyno
Jul 22, 2009, 9:06 AM
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The Piu Cassin is a cheap version of the BD guide and petzl Reverso. I shop at Bachli all the time and I know that the Piu device is sold in the outlet store where they sell all the inexpensive 'generic' gear.
I am sure it is a fine belay device, but its main selling point is that it is half the price of the guide and reverso in Switzerland.
Mark
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king_rat
Jul 22, 2009, 9:56 AM
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back belay, you would find it diffcult to drop, and if you did it would be the last thing you would warry about!
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a-e-jones
Jul 22, 2009, 11:36 AM
Post #10 of 31
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MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off. Mark Twight suggests a Bachli Seilbremse which I believe is the below device: http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/...ssin-Seilbremsen.htm It seems to just have the loop to one side and a way to add another way to secure it so it cannot be dropped. Does anyone know if it is possible to get one in North America?
by the sounds of it even you'd manage to drop a hip belay :P
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bill413
Jul 22, 2009, 12:44 PM
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a-e-jones wrote: MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off. Mark Twight suggests a Bachli Seilbremse which I believe is the below device: http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/...ssin-Seilbremsen.htm It seems to just have the loop to one side and a way to add another way to secure it so it cannot be dropped. Does anyone know if it is possible to get one in North America? by the sounds of it even you'd manage to drop a hip belay :P 
The loop that MT mentions is for using the device in autoblock mode. So, not only are you talking about something that is getting you scorn, but you don't seem to be aware of the uses of the device. *Sigh*
You should know how to belay with more than one device. If you are really worried about dropping it, carry 2. Learn to body belay - very old school, but still very effective (and "better" in some situations). Learn to rig a biner brake so you can rap down.
Knowledge is safety.
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GeneralZon
Jul 22, 2009, 1:38 PM
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DON'T DROP YOUR MUNTER!!!!!
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Skidemon27
Jul 22, 2009, 1:41 PM
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Guran wrote: Simple as that. The complete idiots guide to not dropping the device: 1) Hold atc and belay biner spine with one hand. Open biner gate and remove from gear loop. (*) 2) Still holding on to both device and biner, attach biner to belay loop. 3) Thread the rope through the slot(s) in the device. 4) Open biner gate and insert rope in biner. Should you fumble now, the device is most likely held by rope friction. 5) Lock biner. 6) Done. (*) this is the only time you might drop the device along with the biner. If you are not able to transfer a biner with attached belay device from a gear loop to your belay loop without dropping it, please never ever climb above me or anyone else.
did u really have to give a us a play by play??
wats next?
proper shoe lace tieing
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Gmburns2000
Jul 22, 2009, 1:57 PM
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MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off. Mark Twight suggests a Bachli Seilbremse which I believe is the below device: http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/...ssin-Seilbremsen.htm It seems to just have the loop to one side and a way to add another way to secure it so it cannot be dropped. Does anyone know if it is possible to get one in North America?
The good thing about that device is that it is impossible to drop. The bad thing is that it only works with biners that are really slippery.
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altelis
Jul 22, 2009, 1:59 PM
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bill413 wrote: a-e-jones wrote: MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off. Mark Twight suggests a Bachli Seilbremse which I believe is the below device: http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/...ssin-Seilbremsen.htm It seems to just have the loop to one side and a way to add another way to secure it so it cannot be dropped. Does anyone know if it is possible to get one in North America? by the sounds of it even you'd manage to drop a hip belay :P The loop that MT mentions is for using the device in autoblock mode. So, not only are you talking about something that is getting you scorn, but you don't seem to be aware of the uses of the device. *Sigh* You should know how to belay with more than one device. If you are really worried about dropping it, carry 2learn the munter or hip belay. Learn to body belay - very old school, but still very effective (and "better" in some situations). Learn to rig a biner brake so you can rap down. Knowledge is safety.
fixdt 
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acorneau
Jul 22, 2009, 2:31 PM
Post #16 of 31
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MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off.
FIgure-8.
You can put a rope on and off a Figure-8 while the biner is still locked on it, but eventually you have to open the biner to put it on your belay loop.
Edit to add: actually you don't. With the biner/8 on your belay loop, pull a bight of rope through the big hole, pass it all the way over your head and under your feet. Voila!
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 22, 2009, 2:33 PM)
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ukkonen
Jul 22, 2009, 3:21 PM
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It probably seemed like good question to him at the time....
Now he has probably learned to think long and hard before posting a question here.
The use of the dummy cord is not the main lesson here.
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MentalTunnel
Jul 22, 2009, 3:33 PM
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ukkonen wrote: It probably seemed like good question to him at the time.... Now he has probably learned to think long and hard before posting a question here. The use of the dummy cord is not the main lesson here.
As I stated in my question it is a suggestion by Mark Twight to have a device that is basically impossible to drop. He suggests the Bachli Seilbremse or a Yates Belay Slave. Come on guys stop and think for a minute. I am getting this information straight out of Mark Twight's book and with his record of climbing he still worries about dropping the belay device when setting up for a rappel or belay.
acorneau you are right with a figure eight is another option. Mark Twight does mention that. Thank you for the good info.
(This post was edited by MentalTunnel on Jul 22, 2009, 3:38 PM)
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djlachelt
Jul 22, 2009, 3:43 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: The good thing about that device is that it is impossible to drop. The bad thing is that it only works with biners that are really slippery.
Thank you... at first I thought, "what a stupid thing to say.", now I can't stop chuckling!
To the OP. The Seilbremsen won't solve your problem. That little loop has a very specific function (see the video below). The only thing you can do is tether the device to yourself as one of the previous replies suggested. But I think that would cause more problems than it is worth... more stuff to get tangled.
Go to the Petzl website and view their videos of how the Reverso can be used. It is functionally the same as the device you refer to. http://petzl.com/...ay-devices/reverso-3. The first video shows the Reverso 3 in use, which looks most like the Seilbremsen. The second video on this page shows the simplest way to set up the belay so that you minimize the possibility to drop the belay device (which was described by a previous poster). The device is always attached to the biner. There is almost never a reason to separate the belay device from the carabiner.
Of course, you could drop both of them together... but hopefully you can figure out how to avoid that. Whenever you transfer your belay&crab from a gear loop to your belay loop be sure to be very deliberate, don't try to do something else at the same time. Just like is demonstrated in the video... unclip the carabiner from your gear loop and immediately attach it to your beley loop - done. Then go about setting up the belay.
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dynosore
Jul 22, 2009, 4:23 PM
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MentalTunnel wrote: ukkonen wrote: It probably seemed like good question to him at the time.... Now he has probably learned to think long and hard before posting a question here. The use of the dummy cord is not the main lesson here. As I stated in my question it is a suggestion by Mark Twight to have a device that is basically impossible to drop. He suggests the Bachli Seilbremse or a Yates Belay Slave. Come on guys stop and think for a minute. I am getting this information straight out of Mark Twight's book and with his record of climbing he still worries about dropping the belay device when setting up for a rappel or belay. acorneau you are right with a figure eight is another option. Mark Twight does mention that. Thank you for the good info.
I think the consequences of Mark Twight dropping his belay device in some of the places he has been might be slightly higher than most of us who are typically on a 2-4 pitch 5.8 on a sunny day. As suggested, learn to use a munter if you don't know. Where do you fall in that spectrum?
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sungam
Jul 22, 2009, 6:28 PM
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MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off.
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climbsomething
Jul 22, 2009, 7:10 PM
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Skidemon27 wrote: Guran wrote: Simple as that. The complete idiots guide to not dropping the device: 1) Hold atc and belay biner spine with one hand. Open biner gate and remove from gear loop. (*) 2) Still holding on to both device and biner, attach biner to belay loop. 3) Thread the rope through the slot(s) in the device. 4) Open biner gate and insert rope in biner. Should you fumble now, the device is most likely held by rope friction. 5) Lock biner. 6) Done. (*) this is the only time you might drop the device along with the biner. If you are not able to transfer a biner with attached belay device from a gear loop to your belay loop without dropping it, please never ever climb above me or anyone else. did u really have to give a us a play by play?? wats next? proper shoe lace tieing
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tomtom
Jul 22, 2009, 7:57 PM
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climbsomething wrote: Skidemon27 wrote: Guran wrote: Simple as that. The complete idiots guide to not dropping the device: 1) Hold atc and belay biner spine with one hand. Open biner gate and remove from gear loop. (*) 2) Still holding on to both device and biner, attach biner to belay loop. 3) Thread the rope through the slot(s) in the device. 4) Open biner gate and insert rope in biner. Should you fumble now, the device is most likely held by rope friction. 5) Lock biner. 6) Done. (*) this is the only time you might drop the device along with the biner. If you are not able to transfer a biner with attached belay device from a gear loop to your belay loop without dropping it, please never ever climb above me or anyone else. did u really have to give a us a play by play?? wats next? proper shoe lace tieing I'm sure a few people on this site would benefit from that too.
Advanced Bootlace Techniques
Tying your shoes the mountain way
The classic shoe lace knot is fine for casual footwear, but when it comes to mountain boots and approach shoes, were stresses on the laces will be much greater, and the lace will often be wet, you need something a lot more security. This is especially so if you’re climbing or scrambling in stiff boots, as it is the lace that holds the foot solidly within the boot, and a slack lace will make edging with the toes far more less certain and secure. This is even more crucial when climbing in crampons.
http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/...bootlace_techniques/
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shimanilami
Jul 22, 2009, 8:27 PM
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Gri Gri.
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ptlong
Jul 22, 2009, 9:08 PM
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1. Thin cord for just about any device. I did this when I first started: 2mm cord to the loop on an ATC and girth hitched to my harness (diaper harness back then). Then I realized it was unnecessary.
2. Rope friction keeps the device in place at the critical moments. The only likely place to drop is transferring from harness loop to belay loop.
3. You worry too much. I've never dropped a belay device but so what if I do? I'll use my partner's device for lead belay and a munter or a modified hip belay for belaying the second. For rappelling I'll build a carabiner brake or have my partner lower me.
(This post was edited by ptlong on Jul 22, 2009, 9:09 PM)
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welle
Jul 22, 2009, 9:09 PM
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climbsomething wrote: Skidemon27 wrote: Guran wrote: Simple as that. The complete idiots guide to not dropping the device: 1) Hold atc and belay biner spine with one hand. Open biner gate and remove from gear loop. (*) 2) Still holding on to both device and biner, attach biner to belay loop. 3) Thread the rope through the slot(s) in the device. 4) Open biner gate and insert rope in biner. Should you fumble now, the device is most likely held by rope friction. 5) Lock biner. 6) Done. (*) this is the only time you might drop the device along with the biner. If you are not able to transfer a biner with attached belay device from a gear loop to your belay loop without dropping it, please never ever climb above me or anyone else. did u really have to give a us a play by play?? wats next? proper shoe lace tieing I'm sure a few people on this site would benefit from that too.
yep, like square vs. granny knot: http://www.shoeknots.com/version1/knots.html
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bill413
Jul 23, 2009, 3:26 AM
Post #27 of 31
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altelis wrote: bill413 wrote: a-e-jones wrote: MentalTunnel wrote: I am looking for a belay device that can stay attached to the locking biner while while putting a rope on or off. Mark Twight suggests a Bachli Seilbremse which I believe is the below device: http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/...ssin-Seilbremsen.htm It seems to just have the loop to one side and a way to add another way to secure it so it cannot be dropped. Does anyone know if it is possible to get one in North America? by the sounds of it even you'd manage to drop a hip belay :P The loop that MT mentions is for using the device in autoblock mode. So, not only are you talking about something that is getting you scorn, but you don't seem to be aware of the uses of the device. *Sigh* You should know how to belay with more than one device. If you are really worried about dropping it, carry 2learn the munter or hip belay. Learn to body belay - very old school, but still very effective (and "better" in some situations). Learn to rig a biner brake so you can rap down. Knowledge is safety. fixdt
Thnx!
(& nice sig  )
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MentalTunnel
Jul 23, 2009, 3:36 AM
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Thank you everyone for the help.
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Guran
Jul 23, 2009, 8:16 AM
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MentalTunnel wrote: Thank you everyone for the help.
Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh before, but my main points are:
* While climbing, there are certainly things you simply must not ever drop. (Most importantly your partner) A belay device can always be substituted by something else and hence does not belong on that list.
* You would only drop a belay device if you fumbled in a situation where you can afford to be systematic. You're at a belay station for Bobs sake! Sure, speed is safety and quick transitions are key yada yada, but speed and carelessness are not the same.
* The only way to drop proof anything is to tether it. Tethers are a freaking hassle that makes it far more likely that you fumble and drop something really important.
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shockabuku
Jul 23, 2009, 12:34 PM
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You can attach and detach an ATC from the rope without removing it from the belay biner. It's just a little more difficult. It requires pulling the bights of rope farther through the belay device to get them over the nose of the biner and adjusting the position of the belay device retention cable to create the room to get the bight through the cable.
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Alpinisto
Jul 23, 2009, 12:50 PM
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shockabuku wrote: You can attach and detach an ATC from the rope without removing it from the belay biner. It's just a little more difficult. It requires pulling the bights of rope farther through the belay device to get them over the nose of the biner and adjusting the position of the belay device retention cable to create the room to get the bight through the cable.
^^^This iz korrekt.
And it's what I practice, every time I put/take someone on/off belay. I think I first read about it in Connoly's or Twight's book. After a while it becomes second nature and now dropping my belay device is one less thing to have to worry about.
(Though I do agree with the folks upthread that learning to belay with a Munter is the ultimate "non-droppable" belay device.)
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