So again, he wasn't rock climbing, he was doing a completely different activity, using the gear for something it wasn't made for. Trad gear and the ropes are made to hold falls.

I didn't say find a sharp edge and fold your rope over it and then take a big whip.

The straws you are grasping at are awfully small.

At this point, You guys should just exchange numbers and settle this one over the phone...

Your argument is transparent and getting old. I'm moving on after this.

Free falling 900 feet doesn't happen in climbing so you are talking about forces and systems that are unrelated.

I'm not writing a list to have you proof read it so yeah I mentioned a thing or two. No I didn't write up a lesson plan for anyone on how to do this, nor did I say I was listing everything that was going wrong. My point was solely focused on trad gear such as cams and nuts, (anything else you want to add?). I said judgement, yep that is a very large encompassing word. Anything else I didn't mention throw it in there too. I was not talking about rope systems at any point until you brought them into play in order to strengthen your already failing argument.

Climbing isn't about analyzing everything that could go wrong and then avoiding any chance of risk. If it was then it wouldn't make much sense to climb in my opinion.

The difference between you and I is that I am simply stating a way of doing something that is available to anyone. You are trying to show that I am stupid and wrong and that other people should listen to you. Yet, you have no evidence to back it up. Since I am not trying to tell anyone to do anything the burden of proof falls on you, not me. You have not succeeded in it.

Being pissed hasn't solved any problems I know of. Hopefully you find a system that works in.

Or better yet, Moose should just stfu.

At this point, You guys should just exchange numbers and settle this one over the phone...

Very weak.

Your trying to pass this off as a safe and good thing, Its not. The fact that so far its been OK doesn't tip any scales.

No evidence?? No proof?? There's Dan and a multitude of other climbers that took the chop on gear, without trying to push their gear. Climbing is much about trying to analyze everything you can think of and than minimizing it the best you can. You can't get rid of all the risks of climbing, but there is no sense in inviting any either. When your talking about taking a fall onto gear, guess what, you are talking about roped systems. Dan's setup wasn't instilling abnormal forces as you imply, they are well within forces gear is able to take, quite a bit less actually. He wasn't an idiot, shit happens, he new there were risk. The scary thing about you is you don't see any risk and offer it up to anyone as the thing to do, and that those that see the inherent extra risk in it as being scared of it.

Thanks for the lecture, dad. Climbing is not about minimizing the risk. It is about accurately assessing the risks, deciding whether you find those risks acceptable, making a choice, and accepting the consequences of that decision. ACJ has merely said that he has learned to assess whether a fall is safe or not, assess whether the gear is good, and fall or not fall as HE deems appropriate. Whether this is on purpose, or as a result of climbing to the point of failure is immaterial. If he feels he is able to make these assessments and is willing to accept the consequences of such a choice, good for him. If you aren't capable of telling whether a fall is safe and/or if your gear is good, then don't take the fall. Just don't assume that other climbers don't possess the skills that you do not. It's probably really irresponsible to climb above good gear knowing that there is a low probability of pulling the moves too, huh?

Being aware that even perfect looking placements can fail has nothing to do with fear. Its a reality that you can accept or ignore. I can climb above gear knowing this without dwelling on it. Its a risk I'm willing to take, its not a risk I'm willing to push. You can push the odds all you want.

Simply put, you need to advise people of the drawbacks of hucking yourself onto gear if your going to advocate it.

There is a change in your mental game and confidence in your gear that comes from unplanned falling on your gear (never fall test gear on purpose that is whats suicidal)...

lots of extremely good trad climbers (beth rodden, Didier Berthod, ceder wright, many others i don't feel like typing out) will work hard routes the same way sport climbers will. when doing a really hard ground up ascent part of the experience is to climb, and fall, pull the rope, and try again. i suppose this isn't the same as intentionally taking a fall but they start these climbs knowing full well that they're going to be taking falls onto gear. that's just the nature of the beast.

purposely taken falls onto gear is flat out stupid.

I'm looking forward to reading your explanation of why gear is more likely to fail in an intentional fall than it is in an accidental one. Since you seem to be pretty good at tortured logic, I'm sure you can come up with something entertaining.

JL

No where did I say that, so following the logic you've asked for, I don't need to explain it.

I hate to speak for him, but I think perhaps the point Moose is trying to make is that there's a risk vs. reward calculation you have to make.