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climbsomething
Dec 2, 2002, 7:36 AM
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HILLARY IS GONNA RANT
You have been warned
All-righty. Let's talk.
In very quick succession I have seen three threads go up slagging on other climbers who just don't know as much as the authors.
Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3
Basically: "I saw somebody do this ridiculous/unsafe thing! "
Replies: how could they! I would have never done anything that stupid, not even as a newbie. Yeah. Just thought you'd like to know, all.
Plus a few truly brilliant posts that say, "huh huh, stupid idiots, they don't deserve to climb, hey, ever heard of darwin? huh huh."
Furchrissakes people, get off your damn pedestal (hey, did you climb up to the top of it?) and quit the slaggin'. This shows nothing but insecurity and cattiness and contributes absoulutely nothing, certainly not to the beginners who obviously need a little (or a lot of!) help to remain safe!
Now. At one point I thought these threads were a source of great mirth. It made me feel just a wee bit bigger, knowing I wasn't part of the "lowest common denominator." But I realized it wasn't funny anymore, when it finally locked in that I was chuckling at what could turn into very scary situations.
I am also not saying I ain't given to insecurity or cattiness in general. And I do get frustrated and snotty with people who I don't think give climbing the serious respect that it deserves. But there are lazy people with a flippant disregard for safety (or anything, for that matter), and then there are people who simply need a little help, and would probably appreciate it. Usually the difference is obvious... and by the situations described in a couple of these threads, it IS pretty clear.
When I have questioned or corrected people's methods, sometimes I am nice and sometimes I am firm, but it's ACTUALLY because I care.
Maybe it's me who has the shoulder chip, but I'd rather that alongside being a little more serious and compassionate than just crowing about how stupid other people are.
So, one last time:
If you see somebody doing something that could severely jeopardize their safety/life, drop what you're doing and HELP THEM, without expecting a cookie or even attention from your Internet peers. If all you see is newbies being new, but not actually doing anything wrong, then again, don't feel the need to report back. Because I don't care. I see it all the time. So do a lot of other people around here. And most importantly, we all did the newbie thing at one time.
AM I MAKING ANY SENSE?! If I am a rarity, an anamoly, maybe I am going to get thinned from the herd, eh?
End. Rant.
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duskerhu
Dec 2, 2002, 7:48 AM
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Groovy, right on... I'll second that!
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wildtrail
Dec 2, 2002, 8:04 AM
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Right on Hill! I'll third and fourth that.
I love how many seem to be so "superior" to others just because they have been climbing longer.
Oh! That's right! I forgot. They never were beginners. They started and were awesome with lead abilities up to the 13's right off the bat. I forgot about that.
I'll shut up now because I suck.
Steve
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galt
Dec 2, 2002, 8:25 AM
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Let's be careful what we say (who we bash) lest we become what we are posting against.
(That said I do agree with you)
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rockpossum
Dec 2, 2002, 8:40 AM
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I feel your rant.
In defense of climbers generally though, my experience is of helpful thoughtful people. Haven't found too many that over state their qualifications or are too cool for the crag. As a well rounded out door type I hang with triathletes, road cyclists, mtn bikers and adventure racers(not to mention climbers). They all have elitist poseurs among them.
In my experience the best performers tend to be the most mature and the most likely to lend a hand or offer a helpful tip to an average Joe like myself.
These threads tend to bring out the worst in people. I guess the quasi-anonymous nature lets people say things they'd think twice about in person. At least I hope so.
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jules
Dec 2, 2002, 11:43 AM
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It happens in every sport.
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rrrADAM
Dec 2, 2002, 12:45 PM
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With you 100% Hillary.
Everyone was new at one time, and deserve the same patience, guidance, and respect that we recieved when we were new.
The only "stupid question" is the one not asked for fear of sounding stupid. In climbing, we cannot learn from our mistakes, as they can be fatal.
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overlord
Dec 2, 2002, 2:13 PM
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IMHO sometimes a little ranting doesent hurt. and sometimes some things are just TOO stupid not to type about (like the mak who tied into his chalk loop).
CLIMB ON
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petsfed
Dec 2, 2002, 2:36 PM
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Maybe it was just me, but when I read the first two threads you put up, my blood ran cold. And this was well before I read your rant. Maybe it was the instruction I recieved when I was learning to climb, but by the second time out, I wasn't making mistakes like that because it was deadly serious. I understood that. However, I feel those threads were unwarranted unless (in the case of the second one) the poster actually tried to ammend the situation before it got serious. Then they themselves are ranting out of frustration that their advice (eg. the correct way) was ignored and the person is getting a false positive that can hurt them later. We have an obligation to keep each other safe, but when dealing with life and death, I find no reason to be terribly polite when the situation doesn't call for it. I'm looking to save your life, not be your best friend.
As for that last one, it was just shameless beginner bashing which is just as mindless and empty as the whole "looks like new" issue. No doubt if the poster was being outclimbed by someone in a new harness (but likely just needed to replace the old one) they would come to the same conclusion. Maybe its just jealousy. In any case, its fluff to blown off with so many other things like that.
But that's just my counter-rant. I could be wrong.
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robbovius
Dec 2, 2002, 2:37 PM
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I, as a relative climbing newbie, certainly appreciate the sentiments expressed in this post. Myself and my climbing partner (female) have been lurking around here for the last few weeks but have been put off by having to wade thru the heaps of macho bullsh1t...finding the few nuggets of wisdom hereabouts is often like chipping garnets out of the talus y'know?
Peoiple being what they are, I understand that this particular thread isn't going to lessen the macho-bullsh1t factor by much, but I do appreciate some of the more experienced people aknowledging it and making the effort
trust me, it could be so much worse, ever been to any motorcycling BBSs?
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vertical_reality
Dec 2, 2002, 3:31 PM
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The only thing that sucks about this sport are the egos.
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curt
Dec 2, 2002, 3:34 PM
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Hillary,
You are so right in posting your thoughts on this subject. People (whether beginners or experienced climbers) often get hurt or killed when they are doing something that could be called "stupid." But, in most cases, stupid is not the right word. Careless may be more appropriate.
If you see someone doing something unsafe, you have a moral obligation to say something to them instead of just leaving the scene while snickering to yourself. I have had a number of friends killed climbing, among them Kevin Bein and Bill Ravitch. No one would call them stupid, but they were both careless--perhaps only once--but once was enough.
I guess my point here is that anyone reading this post could be the next person to make a careless mistake, perhaps having fatal consequences. Kevin Bein was one of the most safety minded climbers that I have ever known.
By the way, Lynn Hill took a long fall while being lowered off a climb when she did not tie in correctly. Would you call Lynn Hill stupid? I would guess not. The beginners referred to in the threads cited by Hillary are probably not stupid either, but we must instill in them how critical it is (life and death) to do things properly in this sport.
Curt
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wv5ten
Dec 2, 2002, 3:45 PM
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umm. isn't this what i said in my replies to those kind of topics? and though i feel you're right, isn't casting these people down placing yourself on a pedestal? just curious.
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boardcrazzy
Dec 2, 2002, 4:21 PM
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I agree that the more inexperienced shouldn't be bashed for what they don't know. I think the threads about witnessing unsafe things should be posted, but in a more posative form. Someone above said that it's tough to learn from mistakes in this sport because they can be fatal. Well, in the threads referenced, people did make mistakes, but luckily they weren't fatal. Everyone should then have the opportunity to learn from them. They may seem like 'dumb' mistakes to a lot of us, but there are a lot of people on this site that could be learning from those incidents before it happens to them. It's all positive if used in the right way.
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lox
Dec 2, 2002, 5:20 PM
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I'm like all... MOVE THAT PAD BELOW THE CLIMBER.
And then drooling newbs are like.. "Oh, ok..."
Funny to ME.
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sauron
Dec 2, 2002, 5:29 PM
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I didn't think women were allowed to have their own opinions.. Sheesh, next thing you'll know they want to have their own jobs and vote on the presidency...
- d.
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fixxervi6
Dec 2, 2002, 5:48 PM
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I'm not for bashing newbies, I still have things to learn myself and I've been climbing for a while. BUT, when things happen that common sense should play in, thats where I start to think, hey man, this ain't cool, example, clippin into your chalk bag, that person should not be climbing, 1, common sense should say something here, 2 why didn't the partner catch it on the partner check? 3 its so easy you could learn how to properly do that by picking up a book or lookin up on the web or proper instruction, maybe it was the gyms fault, but like I said, common sense has to play in someplace, and it didn't there. When I see people doing stupid things like that, it angers me to no end, I've been out around people that I think they just ran into a climbing shop and threw down some money, then found a rock, when these people take a dive and get killed/injured that puts out bad vibes for the entire sport, thats not cool. Not to mention screwin up the crags, I've had rope thrown on me and heard laughter, the list goes on and on. If you don't want to read the rants, don't click the link. Doing silly newbie things are one thing, dangerous things like the people that just buy and go are another, I see far too much of it.
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climblouisiana
Dec 2, 2002, 5:49 PM
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I do find it funny that people equate inexperience with stupidity.
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hugepedro
Dec 2, 2002, 6:05 PM
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Rant on Hillary!
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nimo
Dec 2, 2002, 6:26 PM
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I agree with Hillary. People should be a little more careful when handling these topics and the focus should be on helping and teaching not belittling. The topics are fine if the point is to inform others of what to watch out for, not do, stay safe, and how to help others. The responses are often times more infuriating than the posts. The “Darwin” comment comes from someone who has done things just as careless yet berates others for similar things. My point is everyone who has been climbing long enough will or has made a mistake and hopefully will learned how to survive them and prevent others. The other thing about these posts and others like them, they seem to be an easy way for people to up the number of posts they have without contributing something helpful to the community. I hope people focus more on sharing the good times and accomplishments they have had along with knowledge.
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hawk233
Dec 2, 2002, 6:30 PM
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Right on Hillary. Seems like everyone around here can onsight a 13. I must be the only one on this whole board who thinks a 5.9 is brutally difficult and a 5.10 is impossible.
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jerrygarcia
Dec 2, 2002, 6:46 PM
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The original posters are just trolling. Why even give them the time of day. There should be a block on new posts for the first day when an account is created. You can always tell a troll because their post count will be under 10(yes their are exceptions).
JerryGarcia
[ This Message was edited by: jerrygarcia on 2002-12-02 10:46 ]
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wpy71
Dec 2, 2002, 6:47 PM
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Way to go Hillary,
I agree with you 100% It's nice to see an intelligent, sensible opinion. I have read many of Hillary's posts on this site, and she always has a positive attiude, and a great sense of humor. We could use a "herd" of you.
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rrrADAM
Dec 2, 2002, 7:01 PM
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I posted this in another similar thread...
Quote:
Seems like this is what I see...
Newbies:
(0-2 years depending on time devoted to climbing, but usually 0-6 months)
-Make mistakes (safety, technique, and style), since they don't know any better.
Newly Experienced & Elitist Punks:
(1 month to lifetime, depending on how far their head is up their ass)
-Laughs at newbies
-Sprays about how hard they climb
-Allways have an excuse on why they didn't send or Red Point.
-Believes that their style of climbing is the best.
-Exagerates the length of their 8' "whippers"
Seasoned Climbers:
(once they realize that it's all climbing whether it's Trad, Aid, Sport, Bouldering, Ice, Buildering, Plastic, etc..)
-Helps the newbies
-Laughs at the one's with their heads up their asses for being elitists
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andy_lemon
Dec 2, 2002, 7:09 PM
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All that figure 8 mumbo jumbo is in the past, now I'm an Elitist Prick. Thanks Adam!
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