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JasonsDrivingForce


Aug 5, 2009, 2:49 PM
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Re: [kriso9tails] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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kriso9tails wrote:

i) Doesn't her post say that she would take her child on a camping trip?

ii) I thought I'd save her some time since she seems like cool people (and I already asked that, but her answer is now buried in the middle of the thread):

karmiclimber wrote:
I don't have an age in mind. I'm thinking six or seven...but I'll be watching her for the maturity that would be necessary for a climbing trip. Every child is different...some are ready sooner, some later. I will probably be asking my doctor also...I'm thinking in terms of, if the worst happens (she gets bitten by a copperhead and there is a 30 minute hike out...) will she be able to tolerate it like an adult. Could she get hurt/bitten by a snake, etc, playing outside? Well, yes, but its far more unlikely and the hospital is a couple minutes ride in the car down the road. To me, its using common sense as a parent. That said, I don't judge...other people are in different situations and their children are different. To me, parenting comes first, because it was a decision of responsibility that I made. Climbing has to come second...that doesn't mean I don't want to expose my daughter to climbing...which is why I take her to the gym. I might take her to a place like the Columns in Eugene Oregon (drive up crag, zero approach, easy access to hospital), but other than that, no. My own thoughts as a parent.

Thanks I didn’t see that post. She had some good thoughts on it though.

I saw that she would already take her 3.5 year old camping. I was wondering what the youngest age she would take a child camping was.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 5, 2009, 3:03 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:

i) Doesn't her post say that she would take her child on a camping trip?

ii) I thought I'd save her some time since she seems like cool people (and I already asked that, but her answer is now buried in the middle of the thread):

karmiclimber wrote:
I don't have an age in mind. I'm thinking six or seven...but I'll be watching her for the maturity that would be necessary for a climbing trip. Every child is different...some are ready sooner, some later. I will probably be asking my doctor also...I'm thinking in terms of, if the worst happens (she gets bitten by a copperhead and there is a 30 minute hike out...) will she be able to tolerate it like an adult. Could she get hurt/bitten by a snake, etc, playing outside? Well, yes, but its far more unlikely and the hospital is a couple minutes ride in the car down the road. To me, its using common sense as a parent. That said, I don't judge...other people are in different situations and their children are different. To me, parenting comes first, because it was a decision of responsibility that I made. Climbing has to come second...that doesn't mean I don't want to expose my daughter to climbing...which is why I take her to the gym. I might take her to a place like the Columns in Eugene Oregon (drive up crag, zero approach, easy access to hospital), but other than that, no. My own thoughts as a parent.

Thanks I didn’t see that post. She had some good thoughts on it though.

I saw that she would already take her 3.5 year old camping. I was wondering what the youngest age she would take a child camping was.

Can't answer for others, but I would say "as soon as the mom is physically recovered from the pregnancy". In practical tearms 2 is the minimum for the first. The second and on are as soon as mom can go.


Partner happiegrrrl


Aug 5, 2009, 5:46 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Arlene Blum was such a woman.

Read her autobiography, and she wrote about the shit she got all along the mountain hut system in Europe every night when she pulled in with her brand new baby in the rucksack!


bigevilgrape


Aug 5, 2009, 6:27 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I've seen 3 year olds roll a rock the size of a football down the side of a hill. And pick up rocks the size of softballs to throw (parental unit stoped them before they got very farThe strength weight ratio of a child is amazing and what makes them such good climbers. And they have a hard them understanding why you can throw rocks in one place but not another, the best think I've found is to have throwing toys for throwing and rocks for staying on the ground.

You don't step on ropes, you don't walk between a belayer and the wall, and you don't throw rocks at a wall. People are too bent out of shape trying to say how kids will be kids and how their child is so mcuh better. If I started a thread saying I let my kid trow rocks whenever we go climbing you would all be jumping down my throat.


climberguy2011


Aug 5, 2009, 6:58 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I think the "rock throwing" got a little out of hand...maybe it's a slow news day here on rc.

Nobody in their right mind thinks it's okay to be throwing rocks where the chance to hit someone from above (or pelt them on the side from a short distance) is okay.

The kids in this instance are like 4 years old! Do you think any rock they have picked up is:
- bigger than a quarter?
- able to be put a distance greater than 3 feet?
- that if the kids were throwing that AT a human, or on the edge of a cliff, a climber mom wouldn't be on it?

The thing is, with kids(from what I understand) - you can't sweat the small stuff. If you had to tell a kid "no" for every possible transgression they were making throughout a day, you might as well just tape a loop of "No's!" and let it play continuously.

The "rocks are okay!" posts are generally made either in jest or else with a perspective in mind(ie; dude trundles football size rock off top of cliff in Wind River - BAD, 3 year old overhands a chunk of dirt that has a few pebbles in it 3 feet(tops) and shin level - KID who will be a kid.

For something funny, check out this illustrated film from Jeremy Collins/Timmy O'Neill "A Brief Biased History of Big Wall Climbing" Link: http://www.timmyoneill.com/video/HistBWclimb.html


On an aside - OP has logged in and not posted to his little masterpiece since his last one. Guess he's just sitting back and laughing at the train wreck. Or sobered up and realized what an ass he came off as. Or is busily pecking away at the Mother Of ALL Replies.... Or something

And i'm the emotionally unstable one. Right. Not that it matters, but after my last post I left for a few good days at rumney. No crowds, no misbehaving dogs, no fucking kids.

I may be wasting my time, but I'm going to attempt to talk to you in a rational manner. This ain't the mother of all replies, either.

I think you have your physics quite wrong on the rock throwing issue, and while this is a symptom and not a disease, I will still waste my precious time explaining what I witnessed to you. Picture this if you will:
The largest of the children, possibly 4 years old, was rather elated that he had sent his 5.3 ramp proj. So excited, that it necessitated throwing, with both hands and over his head (soccer/throw in style) several large rocks down the trail. Probably 4-5 pounds each, and while they didn't fly more than 3-4 feet as you suggest, they sure did bounce and roll for quite the distance. The nearest adult's immediate response was rationality where there was no call for it, "Jimmy(name intentionally changed), don't throw rocks. You might hurt some one."
That is some pretty sound logic, and if the little shithead was able to wrap his brain around such a concept, perhaps the behavior would have stopped there. Alas, that was not the case, and another rock careened down the trail.
"Jimmy, what did I tell you? You might hurt someone."
Another rock, and another similar response before one of the soccer milfs stepped in, sorely lacking a cookie and a bj for me.

So far, you've called me emotionally unstable, and with anger issues. Hell, you've even insinuated substance abuse issues. That sounds real mature.


shadowsandwich


Aug 5, 2009, 7:01 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I love how climberguy has been surfing his artfully crafted tsunami for 9 pages now. Laugh


climberguy2011


Aug 5, 2009, 7:09 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Let me dissuade some of the controversy.
I don't hate children.
I respect members of society who feel the need to fire out a kid to keep the species going, and i'm positive that there are many great parents out there who can produce the next sharma. Someone has to.
My complaint is not with the kids. They are not able to distinguish correct and incorrect behavior. My grievance is with the parents who expose their children to needless risk, and to the parents who foster needless risk and general annoyance on other climbers by bringing their unsupervised rabble to the crag. If I decided to bring a full marching band to help me send, provided they weren't chucking rocks or acting irresponsibly, that's cool right?
By the way, I send best to sousa marches.
2 parents + 1 'responsible' kid + one secluded area = ok. Divert from that formula, and there is issues. When you find it necessary to bring a tent, several mini firetrucks, and the other accouterments, it becomes not ok.


climberguy2011


Aug 5, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Re: [snowboardercolo] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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snowboardercolo wrote:
Hmmm,
Cute kids with HOT moms. Has anyone else noticed how HOT they look? I vote for the MOMS!
You come off as a unused tool that craves attention. Wow "Sending some sick 5.9s?" Is there such a thing? What a NOOB!

Are you inept at detecting sarcasm when it is written?


climberguy2011


Aug 5, 2009, 7:19 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
I’m a craptastic parent who’s kids are trying to make the FBI watch list before they hit 10 yrs old. Not really, I just didn’t want to start another one of the “my kids are good” subject (even though they are).

I wanted to take Dingus’ point and go one further…

Those moms were demonstrating some awesome parenting. Who cares if they annoy anyone else? Pull that stick out of your ass and relax. Let ‘em scream. Let them cry. Let them throw all the rocks they want. Oohhhh. They might ruin your experience. So? Grow a bigger set of ear plugs. Don’t worry about those kids getting hurt. Unless you are some tightly wound numnuts member of a rescue squad, let ‘em get hurt. Let them throw that rock at each other. Who cares?

The OP troll was projecting his expectations of how a parent should act onto others. Probably even projecting how his parents treated him and called that “right” and now wants everyone else should behave in that manner. Get over it. If that had been a bunch of 21 year olds with beer, screamin’, yellin’, throwin rocks at each other and passing beer back and forth while their hottie girlfriends climbed, the OP would have strolled over to see what all the fun was about. The OP shoulda done the same with the kids. Who know, he might have gotten cookies and a bj.

Same with a restaurant: Let the kids scream, let them wander all over. If you also got out of your tightly would “I must be repressed” mindset you would see that life is much better if you look to join the fun instead of hearing the noise.

Aside from scoring a cookie and a bj from a hot sendstress, I don't really relate to anything you've written.
Let your kids run rampant in restaurants and other areas?
Whatever happened to the old 'seen and not heard rule?'
Stand by and watch as a child is injured?
Seriously? Should I stand by and watch as the mother buckles in the 30 pack of the beer, but not the kid? Or call the police? The only reason that I didn't move to stop the kid from falling was that I was 3 bolts up, and in a rather inconvenient position to do so.
Your logic is flawed.


climberguy2011


Aug 5, 2009, 7:21 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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happiegrrrl wrote:
Well, hopefully those ears are deft enough to avoid any rocks that might be thrown their way by a delinquent in the making 3 year old!

Do three year olds have the sense to yell 'rock' after they throw their rock over the edge? What sound does a falling rock make when it does not strike anything on it's flight?


zeke_sf


Aug 5, 2009, 7:43 PM
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Re: [kriso9tails] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I truly wish I had the time and patience to read all twelve pages of this thread. I am positive, however, that the discussion is a civil one going in constructive directions and I encourage everybody to keep up the good work!


JasonsDrivingForce


Aug 5, 2009, 8:15 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climberguy2011 wrote:
Let me dissuade some of the controversy.
I don't hate children.
I respect members of society who feel the need to fire out a kid to keep the species going, and i'm positive that there are many great parents out there who can produce the next sharma. Someone has to.
My complaint is not with the kids. They are not able to distinguish correct and incorrect behavior. My grievance is with the parents who expose their children to needless risk, and to the parents who foster needless risk and general annoyance on other climbers by bringing their unsupervised rabble to the crag. If I decided to bring a full marching band to help me send, provided they weren't chucking rocks or acting irresponsibly, that's cool right?
By the way, I send best to sousa marches.
2 parents + 1 'responsible' kid + one secluded area = ok. Divert from that formula, and there is issues. When you find it necessary to bring a tent, several mini firetrucks, and the other accouterments, it becomes not ok.

So if the child had just quietly "sended" a nice 5.5 with no hoop-la and then waited patiently while the parental units did there thing then we wouldn't have ever had this thread?


climbsomething


Aug 5, 2009, 8:21 PM
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Re: [zeke_sf] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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zeke_sf wrote:
I truly wish I had the time and patience to read all twelve pages of this thread. I am positive, however, that the discussion is a civil one going in constructive directions and I encourage everybody to keep up the good work!
Actually, it's not nearly as messy as the Brotherhood of the Dopes thread.


shadowsandwich


Aug 5, 2009, 8:25 PM
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In reply to:
So if the child had just quietly "sended" a nice 5.5 with no hoop-la and then waited patiently while the parental units did there thing then we wouldn't have ever had this thread?

Pretty much, yeah


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 6, 2009, 4:44 AM
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climberguy2011 wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
I’m a craptastic parent who’s kids are trying to make the FBI watch list before they hit 10 yrs old. Not really, I just didn’t want to start another one of the “my kids are good” subject (even though they are).

I wanted to take Dingus’ point and go one further…

Those moms were demonstrating some awesome parenting. Who cares if they annoy anyone else? Pull that stick out of your ass and relax. Let ‘em scream. Let them cry. Let them throw all the rocks they want. Oohhhh. They might ruin your experience. So? Grow a bigger set of ear plugs. Don’t worry about those kids getting hurt. Unless you are some tightly wound numnuts member of a rescue squad, let ‘em get hurt. Let them throw that rock at each other. Who cares?

The OP troll was projecting his expectations of how a parent should act onto others. Probably even projecting how his parents treated him and called that “right” and now wants everyone else should behave in that manner. Get over it. If that had been a bunch of 21 year olds with beer, screamin’, yellin’, throwin rocks at each other and passing beer back and forth while their hottie girlfriends climbed, the OP would have strolled over to see what all the fun was about. The OP shoulda done the same with the kids. Who know, he might have gotten cookies and a bj.

Same with a restaurant: Let the kids scream, let them wander all over. If you also got out of your tightly would “I must be repressed” mindset you would see that life is much better if you look to join the fun instead of hearing the noise.

Aside from scoring a cookie and a bj from a hot sendstress, I don't really relate to anything you've written.
Let your kids run rampant in restaurants and other areas?
Whatever happened to the old 'seen and not heard rule?'
Stand by and watch as a child is injured?
Seriously? Should I stand by and watch as the mother buckles in the 30 pack of the beer, but not the kid? Or call the police? The only reason that I didn't move to stop the kid from falling was that I was 3 bolts up, and in a rather inconvenient position to do so.
Your logic is flawed.

Yes this is a total troll reply, just can’t help myself.

In reply to:
Whatever happened to the old 'seen and not heard rule?'

The rule was an awful mistake of parenting that somehow got credence as a “rule”. It is a parenting theory designed to build individuals who can successfully be on the bottom of a highly hierarchical organization where extreme deference to ones superiors is required. If you were raised that way, please seek counseling. It may be the only hope for you.

Kids will be loud and active. Teenagers will be loud and should be active. Adults should be loud and active.

As for the kids, let ‘em fall. They need to. They need to hurt themselves, as long as it isn’t fatal, life threatening, or permanently disfiguring, then it is good for them. They need to learn to make judgments themselves about dangers and risks. They don’t learn that judgment from hearing mom scream at them and hit them if they go too far. When mom yells at them all they learn is that mom can yell. When they hit the ground they learn quickly not to do that again. They need to fall to learn. Mom needs to tell the consequences before hand in a calm manner (as they did) so that afterwards they can draw the connection to the action and the result. Mom doesn’t own not hitting another kid with a rock, the kid owns that. The sooner the kids learn they own their actions, the better they will be. Seems like the moms were doing a good job.

You should help if there is something the kids or the moms don’t know, same as you should if it was teenage girls. Your social responsibilities comes not from being an additional “adult” in the situation, but another equal person in the group. Don’t try to be the adult, be the biggest kid.

However, if the 3 moms have 30 beers then they were definitely on the prowl and you missed your chance.

Basically, I’m trying to say again, relax, join the fun. Those look like some sweet dump trucks that you missed playing with and that tent looked awesome. Throw a rock or two, even at your friends. Get over your idea of what it is like to “grow up”, it isn’t what you think it is.


sbaclimber


Aug 6, 2009, 5:15 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Your social responsibilities comes not from being an additional “adult” in the situation, but another equal person in the group.
The only problem with this theory is, as an "adult" you're not allowed to throw the rocks back at the kids.
That would give them the opportunity to quickly, effectively and personally experience the consequences of their actions.LaughTongue


(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Aug 6, 2009, 5:17 AM)


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 6, 2009, 6:00 AM
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sbaclimber wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Your social responsibilities comes not from being an additional “adult” in the situation, but another equal person in the group.
The only problem with this theory is, as an "adult" you're not allowed to throw the rocks back at the kids.
That would give them the opportunity to quickly, effectively and personally experience the consequences of their actions.LaughTongue

Too easy.

Option A: Hit the MILF on the tush with a small rock. Point at kid when she turns around. Repete. Caution, if you get caught, you might get spanked.

Option B: Hit kid 1 with a small rock, point at kid 2. Hit kid 2 with small rock, point at kid 1. Hilarity ensues.


sbaclimber


Aug 6, 2009, 6:07 AM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Option A: Hit the MILF on the tush with a small rock. Point at kid when she turns around. Repete. Caution, if you get caught, you might get spanked.
Not necessarily a bad thing. Win-win either wayCool

Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Option B: Hit kid 1 with a small rock, point at kid 2. Hit kid 2 with small rock, point at kid 1. Hilarity ensues.
Sly


markc


Aug 6, 2009, 6:57 AM
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climberguy2011 wrote:
Let me dissuade some of the controversy.
I don't hate children.
I respect members of society who feel the need to fire out a kid to keep the species going, and i'm positive that there are many great parents out there who can produce the next sharma. Someone has to.
My complaint is not with the kids. They are not able to distinguish correct and incorrect behavior. My grievance is with the parents who expose their children to needless risk, and to the parents who foster needless risk and general annoyance on other climbers by bringing their unsupervised rabble to the crag. If I decided to bring a full marching band to help me send, provided they weren't chucking rocks or acting irresponsibly, that's cool right?
By the way, I send best to sousa marches.
2 parents + 1 'responsible' kid + one secluded area = ok. Divert from that formula, and there is issues. When you find it necessary to bring a tent, several mini firetrucks, and the other accouterments, it becomes not ok.

You honestly think that the best strategy for managing kids at the crag is to not bring toys, a small tent or blanket they can retreat to, etc? Then they're supposed to angelically sit the proper distance from the cliff, awaiting their turn to climb? If you ever have kids, some of those notions are going to crash down pretty hard.

As a relatively recent parent, I'll give some unrequested advice you may never need. With my kid, I stack the deck in my favor as much as possible. I've seen climbers with much more crap than I bring, sometimes with the bulk of it strewn around the base. If a couple toys (without batteries) and a blanket wreck your day, I don't know how you manage to exist from day to day.

Regarding the marching band, can you have them leave the uniforms at home? Those things have to be a pain to clean, and it's a little too formal for the crag. If they're loud, my partners and I can go with non-verbal communication.


lena_chita
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Aug 6, 2009, 8:47 AM
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climberguy2011 wrote:
Let me dissuade some of the controversy.
I don't hate children.
I respect members of society who feel the need to fire out a kid to keep the species going, and i'm positive that there are many great parents out there who can produce the next sharma. Someone has to.
My complaint is not with the kids. They are not able to distinguish correct and incorrect behavior. My grievance is with the parents who expose their children to needless risk, and to the parents who foster needless risk and general annoyance on other climbers by bringing their unsupervised rabble to the crag. If I decided to bring a full marching band to help me send, provided they weren't chucking rocks or acting irresponsibly, that's cool right?
By the way, I send best to sousa marches.
2 parents + 1 'responsible' kid + one secluded area = ok. Divert from that formula, and there is issues. When you find it necessary to bring a tent, several mini firetrucks, and the other accouterments, it becomes not ok.

How does a fire-truck or a playtent affect you? how is it different from other gear on the ground?

I admit that i have never brought a playtent for my kids, and the toy rule is that it has to fit in THEIR backpack, and they have to carry it. Yes, even at the age of 3 yo my daughter was carrying a very small backpack. My son often lugs 15 pounds worth fo books to read with him. My daughter usually carries a notepad and crayons, and a small washable toy in addition to her climbing shoes and harness. Right now we are having a bit of a problem b/c she had outgrown the tiny knapsack that she was carrying as a 3-5yo, but the next size of backpacks (the standard school backpack size) is still too big for her. She carries it, but it makes her walk quite a bit slower than the rest of the group.

However, the above is really b/c of my convenience (I don't want to carry a playtent!) and b/c of my belief that kids should be responsible for their own belongings. I believe it is important for my kids, but
I do not in any way object to OTHER people bringing playtents or whatever toys they want for their kids.

Kids are different, what they need is different, too. A stranger is in no position to decide what they need.

And restricting the number of kids to any arbitrary number ( like 1) is meaningless, too. Sometimes having two kids along will be way better than one b/c they play with each other and are thus less bored and less prone to whining and annoying behaviors.

Three is often the worst number, especially for little kids b/c there is always an odd one out, but not always.

And once again, the parents, if they are any good, would be the best judges of what sort of group size would work best for their children, and how they respond to other kids, b/c some kids just wind each other up, no matter what you do.


robbovius


Aug 6, 2009, 9:40 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss.

And creating a potentially unsafe environment for other climbers is what you call true success? Parenting FAIL. Tongue

No man, included in the "measure of success", is its opposite, known colloquially as "failure". knowhatImean? much like th OP, I wold have been annoyed too. the difference being, I wouldn't have ranted about it ineffectually online.

I wasn't even talking about climbing, had more to do with the ulitmate maturity level of the OP, and his comment about never having kids.

was my point really that obscure?

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

In reply to:
This is the exact type of of uncompromising inconsiderate crap that, pardon the pun, breeds conflict in these situations. It's the opposite side of the ridiculous coin the OP flipped ten pages back.

You know I luvs ya, R (friend way), but go "raise" yourself.

no way. that's my girlfriend's job.


robbovius


Aug 6, 2009, 9:52 AM
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Re: [spanishbombs] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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spanishbombs wrote:
That said, I fear that some of the points are falling on deft ears.

some are more deft then others.


spanishbombs


Aug 6, 2009, 10:10 AM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climberguy2011 wrote:
happiegrrrl wrote:
Well, hopefully those ears are deft enough to avoid any rocks that might be thrown their way by a delinquent in the making 3 year old!

Do three year olds have the sense to yell 'rock' after they throw their rock over the edge? What sound does a falling rock make when it does not strike anything on it's flight?

whooosh!


kellie


Aug 6, 2009, 12:18 PM
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Re: [robbovius] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson


gmggg


Aug 6, 2009, 12:44 PM
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Re: [kellie] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

A couple problems with that list:

Jesus had kids

Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult

Kant was insane

And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions"

Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn.

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