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Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 6, 2009, 1:09 PM
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Re: [gmggg] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

A couple problems with that list:

Jesus had kids

Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult

Kant was insane

And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions"

Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn.

Emanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.


gmggg


Aug 6, 2009, 1:17 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
gmggg wrote:
kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

A couple problems with that list:

Jesus had kids

Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult

Kant was insane

And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions"

Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn.

Emanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.

Good on ya Bruce.

No Pooftas!


marc801


Aug 6, 2009, 1:50 PM
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Re: [robbovius] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss.

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.
Who the fuck are you to be so incredibly arrogant to impose your self-righteous value judgment bullshit on the rest of us?

[Edit to fix quotes]


(This post was edited by marc801 on Aug 6, 2009, 1:56 PM)


Partner happiegrrrl


Aug 6, 2009, 1:59 PM
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He's just another deluded human; same as the rest of us.... We all have our blind spots; this is one of his.


kriso9tails


Aug 6, 2009, 2:00 PM
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Re: [gmggg] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult

That's sort of beside the point.


zeke_sf


Aug 6, 2009, 2:03 PM
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Re: [kellie] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty?


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 6, 2009, 2:15 PM
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Re: [gmggg] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
gmggg wrote:
kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

A couple problems with that list:

Jesus had kids

Some on that list are L/G and lived in times that would make kids difficult

Kant was insane

And nearly everybody selfishly spent there time sucking up to humanity with "good deeds" and "political revolutions"

Just a bunch of boy scout and punk rocker adolescent scum like the rest of us who decided that, or happened not to, squeeze out some spawn.

Emanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.

Good on ya Bruce.

No Pooftas!

What's new Bruce gonna teach?


nilcarborundum


Aug 6, 2009, 2:22 PM
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Re: [zeke_sf] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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zeke_sf wrote:
kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty?

Good idea. I'll get it started.

1) zeke_sf


zeke_sf


Aug 6, 2009, 2:27 PM
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Re: [nilcarborundum] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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nilcarborundum wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty?

Good idea. I'll get it started.

1) zeke_sf

Hahaha... So, has Mrs. Nilcarborwhozerface decided you two are gonna pop out some spuds yet?

Oh yes, take me off that list. Ever since the accident at the peanut shelling plant, I don't technically qualify.


nilcarborundum


Aug 6, 2009, 2:51 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
nilcarborundum wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

Not a bad list. How about compiling the other, exponentially growing list of retarded shit heaps who should have been spayed or neutered as soon as they hit puberty?

Good idea. I'll get it started.

1) zeke_sf

Hahaha... So, has Mrs. Nilcarborwhozerface decided you two are gonna pop out some spuds yet?

Oh yes, take me off that list. Ever since the accident at the peanut shelling plant, I don't technically qualify.

Yes she has. Luckily, she has two more years of skoolin', and then she'll probably want me to make an honest woman of her, and I think I can stretch the wedding planning out a year. I think a solid regimen of illicit drugs should render me sterile by then.


technogeekery


Aug 6, 2009, 8:09 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
I think a solid regimen of illicit drugs should render me sterile by then.

I thought that too, but it doesn't work. And your kids come out strange...

Tongue


subantz


Aug 6, 2009, 8:43 PM
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Your hunny. I loves me some JDF. At least you have seen that I like to start big fire. I am Alright with kids. I mean kids that are not out of control. Parents you know who you are. Then you have children that are absolutly kool to be around. Ya know


robbovius


Aug 7, 2009, 5:27 AM
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Re: [marc801] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss.

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.
Who the fuck are you to be so incredibly arrogant to impose your self-righteous value judgment bullshit on the rest of us?

[Edit to fix quotes]

Oh no, I think my arrogance is quite credible.

there's no rigtheousness to it, really. Consider "Life" itself, as one great, ameobic, non- (or semi-) sentient organism. It has but one imperative, and one motivation, simply to continue its existence, and survive.

viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing.

Thus, the only meaningful success, in fulfilling Life's agenda, is to propagate the respective species you belong to. you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.

Life doesn't care if you climb, or spend your existance in altruistic pursuits, or anything. it only cares that you continue its survival.

Life has its own agenda, and we are only another in the many experiments its tried in its pursuit of continuation and survival. all else, all human-scale endeavours and cares, are a gloss over Life's imperative.


(This post was edited by robbovius on Aug 7, 2009, 5:28 AM)


robbovius


Aug 7, 2009, 5:48 AM
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Re: [kellie] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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kellie wrote:
robbovius wrote:
the truest fullness of your humanity, the only true measure of success, is in raising children. all else is gloss

to not parent, the individual arguably denies his or herself the fullness of thier humanity. Also, they arrest their own development at some level between adolecence and adulthood. they never really have to do that last little bit of growing up, since, their lives still get to be pretty much all about them.

And for the curious, here's a short list of a few of those kind of people

Mother Teresa
George Washington
Immanuel Kant
Jesus Christ
Joan of Arc
Florence Nightingale
Susan B. Anthony
Julia Child
Rosa Parks
the Dalai Lama
Georgia O'Keefe
Amelia Earhart
Harriet Tubman
Emily Dickinson

this is a rather inconsistent list.

first off, Jesus Christ is arguably a mythical being. what's that doing on there? you might as well have included Odin, or Anubis.

this list doens't really refute my argument, even for those who'se lives were given to altruism, which doesn't include the adventurers like Amelia E. she spent her life engaging in ever more daring and risky pursuits, until her tragic and mysterious end. How is that not selfish?

George washington was also an adventurer, spending the greater portion of his adult life in directing combat. his cultural relevance, infact is centered on his military pursuits. his presidency is simply an addendum to that, a satisfying coda.

The Dalai Lama was chosen, as a child adn indoctrinated to his semi-divinty. he got no choice as to whether he'd be childless or not. again this doesn't really refute my argument

I made my assertion knowing that its rather easy to find examples of people who accomplished great things and contributed positively to humanity and the human experience and condition, and who can be looked up to as icons of achievement and purpose.

But...it is also as easy to compile a list of other iconic figures, who included parenting as an integral part of those successes.


dingus


Aug 7, 2009, 5:50 AM
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robbovius wrote:
viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing.

I view life on the universal scale. I think other things do matter, like the temperature of my coffee, the soft touch of a hot woman and the smell of granite after the first drops of rain.

In reply to:
Thus, the only meaningful success, in fulfilling Life's agenda, is to propagate the respective species you belong to. you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.

Prove it. No photo, no summit, btw. Gotta call you out on this one hehe.

DMT


dingus


Aug 7, 2009, 5:58 AM
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robbovius wrote:
I made my assertion knowing that its rather easy to find examples of people who accomplished great things and contributed positively to humanity and the human experience and condition, and who can be looked up to as icons of achievement and purpose.

But...it is also as easy to compile a list of other iconic figures, who included parenting as an integral part of those successes.

Life doesn'd give a shit about this debate. It said so... life speaks to me.

DMT


robbovius


Aug 7, 2009, 6:00 AM
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dingus wrote:
robbovius wrote:
viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing.

I view life on the universal scale. I think other things do matter, like the temperature of my coffee, the soft touch of a hot woman and the smell of granite after the first drops of rain.

In reply to:
Thus, the only meaningful success, in fulfilling Life's agenda, is to propagate the respective species you belong to. you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.

Prove it. No photo, no summit, btw. Gotta call you out on this one hehe.

DMT

eerrr. damn. y'know, I had pics of my kids up on a couple photo hosting sites, but since all the hassle last year with that asswipe bristolpipe from NEclimbs.com stalking me - which included linking pics of my friends and offering them up for ridicule - I've since taken all the pictures of my kids down, and I'm really hesitant to put any back up. these days, regarding posting anything openly about people close to me, I admit ot having soem serious trust issues.

sucks, because I'm a proud dad, and like showing them off.


robbovius


Aug 7, 2009, 6:04 AM
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dingus wrote:
robbovius wrote:
I made my assertion knowing that its rather easy to find examples of people who accomplished great things and contributed positively to humanity and the human experience and condition, and who can be looked up to as icons of achievement and purpose.

But...it is also as easy to compile a list of other iconic figures, who included parenting as an integral part of those successes.

Life doesn'd give a shit about this debate. It said so... life speaks to me.

DMT

I know. its ruthless, totally uncaring as to the individual.


Partner happiegrrrl


Aug 7, 2009, 6:11 AM
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In the "Life" cycle that you refer to, it's been shown - over and over again - that left to it's own devices, the effect is over use of resources. Which leads to destruction of the home ship.

I posit that it goes to follow that the TRUE purpose of all life is actually what we humans refer to as death. Personally, I see this phase as the "rest stage" in part of the cycle. Within the rest stage is bliss.

Think not? Are the scenes within dreams more sublime that those of the walking day(if not, perhaps lay off the mind altering substances and lessen youe stress, both of which interfere). It's been shown(through science) that the mind and body heals during sleep phase. Is vacation time not more wonderful than the work between? Do not injured beings recoup through rest?

You see, Robb - your illusion does not extend beyond the realm of "life" and that is the crux that must be overcome in order to see the flaw in your theory.

We all - all - seek to return to the primordial ooze. the state of "non," where we just "are."

But - no problem, if you don't see it that way. Most don't.


mojomonkey


Aug 7, 2009, 6:21 AM
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robbovius wrote:
viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing

Even accepting this proposition, you are being pretty short-sighted if you think "breeding" is then the only success criteria. Take Dean Kamen for instance - if his inventions (medical, mobility, water purification, ...) raise the quality of life for some percentage of the population, that is "helping life to survive". Someone that may have died of dehydration can now live. And yes, maybe breed. Or maybe they make breakthroughs which help others.

Number of kids is a pretty dumb measuring stick for success.

And no, I don't even know if Dean Kamen has kids. The Wikipedia article didn't mention family and I don't really care to investigate. Regardless of his family life I'd say he is helping life survive.


robbovius


Aug 7, 2009, 6:28 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
In the "Life" cycle that you refer to, it's been shown - over and over again - that left to it's own devices, the effect is over use of resources. Which leads to destruction of the home ship.

absolutely, Life is utterly ruthless and driven, uncaring of consequence. that we, humanity, are aware of our ioveruse of resources, simply indicates that we are the first oflife's experiments to show a glimmer of awareness regarding our survival in a universal context.

In reply to:
I posit that it goes to follow that the TRUE purpose of all life is actually what we humans refer to as death. Personally, I see this phase as the "rest stage" in part of the cycle. Within the rest stage is bliss.

Think not? Are the scenes within dreams more sublime that those of the walking day(if not, perhaps lay off the mind altering substances and lessen youe stress, both of which interfere). It's been shown(through science) that the mind and body heals during sleep phase. Is vacation time not more wonderful than the work between? Do not injured beings recoup through rest?

Happie, this "rest stage" you speak of is integral to and inseparable from Life. studies have also shown that if the individual is deprived of the "rest stage", there are serious health, and thereby survivability, consequences. So, your argument isn't really that far removed from what I'm going on about.

In reply to:
You see, Robb - your illusion does not extend beyond the realm of "life" and that is the crux that must be overcome in order to see the flaw in your theory.

I admit to being essentially a physicalist.
"beyond the realm of life..." hmm. the realm of life includes death. My mortality is close to me and walks with me every day - that final oblivion adn non-existence. dreams are your brain running a defrag.

calling what i've written a theory, is overly flattering I think. but ,thanks ;-) its barely a hypothesis. does this constitute a peer review?

In reply to:
We all - all - seek to return to the primordial ooze. the state of "non," where we just "are."

In reply to:
But - no problem, if you don't see it that way. Most don't.

in this last comment, as related our differng personal ideas on this topic - which is likely the best hijack I've ever commited - we find congruence in our experience.


(This post was edited by robbovius on Aug 7, 2009, 6:39 AM)


robbovius


Aug 7, 2009, 6:38 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:
robbovius wrote:
viewing Life on the scale of the universe, this imperative to survive and continue is the only thing that matters - the ONLY thing

Even accepting this proposition, you are being pretty short-sighted if you think "breeding" is then the only success criteria.

no, forget the human scale. view Life - all of it, every species, every entity, as one single collective organism - analogous to all the differentiated cells within your own body, with all their different functions constituting a single collective organism.

what most matters to that collective organism, at its most basic level? what is its essential imperative?


In reply to:
Take Dean Kamen for instance - if his inventions (medical, mobility, water purification, ...) raise the quality of life for some percentage of the population, that is "helping life to survive". Someone that may have died of dehydration can now live. And yes, maybe breed. Or maybe they make breakthroughs which help others.

again this only realtes to the human scale and excludes the rest of the collective organism. does it actually matter to that overall organism?

In reply to:
Number of kids is a pretty dumb measuring stick for success.

not if you want your own reality show.

In reply to:
And no, I don't even know if Dean Kamen has kids. The Wikipedia article didn't mention family and I don't really care to investigate. Regardless of his family life I'd say he is helping life survive.

your life? mine? tube worms? dolphins? wasps? parameceum? what percentage of the collective organism?


mojomonkey


Aug 7, 2009, 6:50 AM
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Re: [robbovius] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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You are really reaching. I was giving an example to illustrate the flaw in your statement:

In reply to:
you breed, you succeed, you don't, you fail.

Dean Kamen, regardless of progeny is still successful based on your own criteria. He helped live survive without breeding.

So fine, we can jump species. Take a bee hive. Other than queens, the females are sterile workers. They gather food and maintain the hive. They are essential to sustaining the life of that hive and can't possibly breed. So they are failures.

There is a more global view you are missing. Yes, any form of life needs, as a group, to reproduce to sustain itself. Not every single one of its members needs to breed.


wonderwoman


Aug 7, 2009, 7:05 AM
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Re: [robbovius] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I'm a happy full time step-mom and yet I still hear an endless stream of 'When are you going to have one of your own?' from co-workers and relatives. It makes me mad for a few reasons. First, it dismisses the fact that I am already raising a great kid (just because she is not biologically mine, doesn't make this less true. She is my daughter. I am her mother. I am raising her.). Second, it's none of their business why I don't have a baby. And third, I never seem to hear this question asked of my childless male colleagues.

If someone asks me this question twice, I will tell him that the discussion makes me feel uncomfortable and to please never ask me again. Sometimes I want to tell the asker that I can't have babies, just to see the look on the other person's face. Maybe that will make him think twice before asking another person this question.

I think that it's wildly inappropriate to impose reproductive values on other people. It's a personal decision, and if someone does not have a child, then there may be a pretty good reason for it.

But let's bring this conversation back on track. If ever I did have a baby, I would bring it to the crag. But I would only let it throw rocks at climberguy.


jamincan


Aug 7, 2009, 7:40 AM
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Re: [robbovius] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I'm not sure that reproduction is always in the best interest of your so-called "collective organism." Taken to an extreme reproduction can be harmful - consider cancer for example. Arguably, considering how harmful human beings generally are to the biosphere in general, we might as well be considered a harmful tumor, in which case it would be in this collective organism's best interest not to have humans reproduce.

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