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climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:01 PM
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Re: [shorty] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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shorty wrote:
climberguy2011 wrote:
Leave the little bastards at home until they can be responsible for their own actions.

Keep them at home until they are of a responsible age, and don't annoy the fuck out of your fellow climbers.

It is unfortunate that we don't have a magic time machine which would allow us to:

1. see you during your pre-school years. I suspect you were a model of behavior.

2. see you with your future children during their pre-school years. I suspect they will be models of behavior.

3. see you during said recent climbs. I suspect you were a model of responsibility, who in no way would ever annoy the fuck out of your fellow climbers.

Granted, I may have been an irresponsible child as a child. Blame the ritalin.
Future children there will be none. Fuck off.
How about you during your recent climbs? Climbing is an arena of effort. Success and failure both hold lessons for those who are receptive.
I'm done with you.


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climberguy2011 wrote:
curt wrote:
climberguy2011 wrote:
So, a few weekends ago, I was up at rumney for some sport goodness. While it was pretty hot and humid, it was a pretty good weekend for sending, and I ticked some good routes for me. It was a good weekend overall, except for one major issue.

Leave your children at home. They do not belong at the crag, and by bringing them, you are not only ruining someone else's good time, you are putting them in a hazardous environment where the supervision is distracted by ideations of sending some sick 5.9 routes.

There is a back story to my anger. We were climbing at new wave, and as soon as we got to the area, another party with three children and a maximum age of 5 showed up. There were three adults in the group, and all the requisite equipment, including but not limited to: A tent, several toy trucks, three kid carriers, and all of the other crap that comes with hauling children into an environment which they clearly do not belong. They soon proved this by throwing rocks down the trail, running around and screaming, crying, and being a general nuisance.


The adult supervision treated their misbehavior with gentle scolding and no attempt to remedy the rock throwing or running around, as they were busy climbing. They did take the opportunity to scold me for swearing in frustration after falling on a route

Not only were they annoying, they potentially endangered their kids by bringing them to a hazardous place, and this was evident when one of the younger children lost his footing and tumbled, much like a pinball, about 5 feet down the trail, to the utter shock of the parents. He fortunately was uninjured.

Keep your fucking kids at home. The crag is not a safe place for children to run around, and not only do you put them in danger, you annoy the shit out of any other parties trying to have a good weekend. And then you bitch about my language when you brought them to an adult location.

Leave the little bastards at home until they can be responsible for their own actions. I don't fucking care how cute they look in their little full body harness, or if they are the next chris fucking sharma. Keep them at home until they are of a responsible age, and don't annoy the fuck out of your fellow climbers.

Just wait till you have kids. I hope somebody reads this back to you. Cool

Curt

I've read this entire thread, and this post is the most glaring of the lot. The whole elitist "i'm better then you because i've procreated and your can't possibly understand what it's like to bring a child to adulthood mentality is a) disgusting, and b) sorely misguided.
No, I don't have kids...

Possibly you missed the Cool at the end of my post. I'm not saying that I'm better than you, but you are seriously mistaken if you think you can possibly understand what it is like to be a parent before you actually become one.

Curt


climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:06 PM
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Re: [peg_leg1] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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peg_leg1 wrote:
You my friend are an idiot. God forbid that you ever reproduce. If you ever find someone shallow enough to mate with, what would you do if you had your kid, no babysitter, and really wanted to go climbing? I bet all of a sudden it would be OK, wouldn't it? Some childless friends might have bitched if I brought my kids to the crags, but now that they have kids it's cool.
Also, if you could focus enough to drown out the kids, maybe you would climb harder. If you have anymore bitching to do, go down to the Gunks and talk to the Family Climbing crowd.
BTW those kids that you bitch about are climbing 5.11's at 10 years old.
How fucking dare you.
a) reproduction is a responsibility which is often made light of. I will never make light of the weight which anothers life depends on my actions. Including bringing my kids to a place in which they clearly do not belong; aka the crag.
b)how does the top-roping chosspile that is the gunks have anything to do with this, other than as a playground for retards?


climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:10 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
So all of you are ok with inattentive parents letting 3 toddlers wander around a crag throwing rocks, crying and almost injuring themselves. that's cool.

A few months ago i was part of a group with a 3 yr old. Group of 4 adults one being the parent. She barely made a peep longer than 10 seconds the whole weekend. We all took turns taking care of her and making sure she was playing safely and not crying. When she did try to do something wrong she was told not to and why not.. she will learn much more than those kids screaming and throwing rocks with no intervention.

I think the point of the guy's post was the inattentive parents and the reckless and unsafe behavior of the kids. not that they were actually there.

You're as much a part of the problem as anyone.
My point is that there is a minimum responsibility level required for climbing, or even hanging out at the base of a popular climb. Shithead 3 year olds do not possess this responsibility.


Kartessa


Aug 3, 2009, 9:13 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Geezus!

Obviously you never were a child, you were born out of a test-tube at the age of 21 and you didn't have parents who loved you and wanted to raise you with an appreciation for the outdoors.

Thank goodness you'll never spawn offspring, but some people do choose to have children. It is not your place to be chastising them for being actively involved in their children's lives, rather than leaving the kids on the couch, munching pringles and soda.


climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:13 PM
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Re: [chrisJoosse] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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chrisJoosse wrote:


Let me add another FU to the chorus.

I am just as interested in having a good time as you, and I am fervently committed to not being one of 'those &@#$%*parents', but if you can't get along when reasonably-regulated kids are around, that's your problem.

I'll add a fuck you to the chorus of those too emasculated to say so. i.e. you. Fuck off and rot.

The shitheads I referenced were not regulated, were not supervised, and were not safe.
Why did I not call the Department of Children and Families/ It ain't my business. Climbing is.


rockreaver


Aug 3, 2009, 9:14 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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My respect for you has always been pretty good (wether you care or not, most people like to know though) but with these comments here you have kind of cemented the deal. I'm not going to say anything to the OP. He kind of strikes me as the guy that will father kids and then leave them because he feels they slow him down. To guys like that I've got nothing to say.

To you though... Much respect to you. Much respect. You said it. You said it right.

My kids have all been to the rock with me and I'm so proud of them for having the courage to do it. They made me very proud.


(This post was edited by rockreaver on Aug 3, 2009, 9:15 PM)


climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:15 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climbsomething wrote:
I think a few of the righteous FUs and "you obviously don't have kids" dismissals are missing the point.

Kids, by definition, are spazzes. Cute, but they know not what they do. Even kids who are pretty good more often than not can be a handful. I can't blame them. The crag is a fun place to be, and they see the adults having fun, so why act like they're in church?

This is why they need adults to look after them, role model and reel them in if necessary. Children need to be controlled when they're at the crag, the gym, the grocery store, the movies, the county jail waiting area, whatever. If you can do that, great. If you can't, leave the kids at home. If you can't leave the kids at home and enjoy your activity, then you stay home too. Because life is just really unfair like that, you know?

I don't have children, but I don't mind them. I actually find them pretty enjoyable once they're old enough to have a conversation with you. It's just a courtesy thing. I've seen uncontrolled kids screaming and stampeding and throwing rocks at the crag and wanted to beat their PARENTS like a pinata (they were already hanging like one, so all I needed was a stick). I've also seen kids just chillin', digging in the dirt with their Hot Wheels and eating their fruit snacks away from the belay hang. And I felt no hostility whatsoever. I'd rather a whole field trip of quiet, respectful first-graders than one "I just got my lead card" douchebag and his screeching belay slave girlfriend having an epic on a warm-up.

That might be elitist, but it's hardly elitist to expect adults to be in control of their children at all times.

Wow.

A voice of reason.


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 9:16 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climberguy2011 wrote:
...Climbing is an arena of effort. Success and failure both hold lessons for those who are receptive...

Well, you don't climb very hard, so I suspect you know even less about that topic than you do about children.

Curt


climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:19 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
Wow... thats is some serious douche-baggery if I've ever seen any.

Why not bitch and moan to the parents instead of your virtual friends on the interwebs? Did you just follow them to get more and more reasons to fume all to yourself? Did you take notes so you could accurately report back to people who don't give a shit?

FU

Oh, so you wish to challenge my integrity? I did complain to the supervisors[/]. Nothing happened. Did I take notes?
I think all the notes that needed to be taken were done so while I was three bolts up: One of the older parasites took his 5' digger nose first. The parents wondered how something so tragic could befall them. I lowered, and they were gone before I could be of service.
FU. Scum.


Kartessa


Aug 3, 2009, 9:21 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Its your fault for throwing the kid off...

Children can sense evil from great distances


climbsomething


Aug 3, 2009, 9:22 PM
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Re: [curt] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
...but you are seriously mistaken if you think you can possibly understand what it is like to be a parent before you actually become one.

Curt
I'm not sure how many of the non-parents really purported to know what it's like to have kids. I don't. I think we're just thinking of common sense and courtesy. I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 9:26 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
curt wrote:
...but you are seriously mistaken if you think you can possibly understand what it is like to be a parent before you actually become one.

Curt
I'm not sure how many of the non-parents really purported to know what it's like to have kids. I don't. I think we're just thinking of common sense and courtesy. I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue

I think it's all about being able to walk a mile in another man's shoes. Common sense and courtesy do not change, but one's priorities certainly can.

Curt


Kartessa


Aug 3, 2009, 9:27 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climbsomething wrote:
I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue

I had one tantrum as a child... one... my mother saw to it that I showed nothing but model behaviour in public. Look, don't touch. Listen, don't speak.

Should I ever try to use her techniques on my son I would have Children's Aid banging down my door because somewhere in the last 20 years it's become illegal to spank, yell or do anything that may potentially harm their self esteem as adults.


kriso9tails


Aug 3, 2009, 9:32 PM
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climberguy2011 wrote:
The first post worthy of my respect.

Seems to have pretty low market value in this thread. I was going to offer to buy it from him for a penny, but then I realized I actually wanted the penny more.


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 9:32 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
He is so going to beat your brittle ass at the father-son picnic. Hehehe.

His pediatrician says he will be 6' 6" when he's fully grown, so I have definitely considered that possibility.

Curt


keithspernak


Aug 3, 2009, 9:39 PM
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WORD!!!


rockreaver


Aug 3, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Redemption? [In reply to]
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You know I'm a parent and I'm a damned good one. I've been told it enough I feel I can quote that and spray a bit. My kids know how to have fun and rip up earth, turf, heaven and hell. However when I give them the "quiet" chat and pull out the bags of age appropriate distractions they shut it and get it done.

My wife and I share a view that kids who have a bag of age appropriate distractions (coloring, video games, pocket knives and whittling wood, etc...), food, snacks and parent instilled self-awareness can be taken anywhere and left largely unattended.

My kids have been to the crag admittedly our crags see 20 people a week instead of an hour. That doesn't mean I let my kids act like wild dogs even if I am there by myself. I let my kids hang it all out at the pool, the back yard and other spots like that but in the woods they respect the land and they respect my chance to enjoy it.

We take our kids everywhere and we talk with them about how they should act. We discuss in the car on the way over what behavior is okay and what behavior is not okay.

Now I do have 3 kids all young. If I packed them into your haunt and got them set up how would you feel? Understand that they would be spread out in a safe place on a blanket with chairs, plenty of food, distractions and a myriad of other things. They would know in advance to say "Hello", "Thank You" and "Let me get my parents for you."

If this situation would have caused you to walk on by and not even notice and not even make this post then I'll let you off the hook. Poorly managed kids ruin everyone's day and I have always believed that my rights end where yours begin and if you feel like you have the right to climb quietly, drop f-bombs and grope your partner that's fine. I'd rather you didn't but those are conversations I planned on having with my kids sooner or later and sooner is fine too. Know what I mean?

So let's aim for some redemption here. Would the situation I describe have sent you over to me and would you have said, "Your kids don't belong here it's not safe?" or would you have even noticed? Also understand that all of my kids even my 4 year old are pretty solid 5.7/5.8 climbers.

How would that situation sit with you? If you'd roll with the same response well then I guess you get what you get and that's how it goes. I don't condemn you or defend you. I'll just step around the body that has all the knives in it's back and tell my kids we'll talk about it later. Wink If however your response would be, "Whoa. That family kicks @$$. I didn't know people still had behaved kids." then sweet. Come on over and we'll pass the fruit snacks. Tongue

Take care man. Not all parents are bad people and not all kids make bad parents. In time life has it's own rhythm don't force it. Close your eyes, test the hold and when it feels right make your move. It's all good.

Whatever you do though be kind to kids. I really believe that the adults in a kids life have the biggest influence on whether or not that kid grows up to shoot someone and that someone might be you.Unsure Your behavior will certainly influence the people around you especially kids.

I'll never forget when my son said, "Damn dad that looks fun." he was 7 and I made a mental note to have a chat about that word and that I'd never say that in front of him again.

Belay is on.


(This post was edited by rockreaver on Aug 3, 2009, 9:45 PM)


climbsomething


Aug 3, 2009, 9:43 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue

I had one tantrum as a child... one... my mother saw to it that I showed nothing but model behaviour in public. Look, don't touch. Listen, don't speak.

Should I ever try to use her techniques on my son I would have Children's Aid banging down my door because somewhere in the last 20 years it's become illegal to spank, yell or do anything that may potentially harm their self esteem as adults.
And see, that's probably why we get so many unleashed brats these days.

The kids who live next door to me are constantly screaming... SCREAMING... in the street, throwing pebbles at my dogs to make them bark, leaving their candy wrappers in my yard, zipping around my driveway even when the car is running. I know they're too little to know any better, but I never see their parents supervising. Somebody who works a few cubicles over from me regularly brings her kid to work. It is NEVER quiet. It screeches like a dolphin with an ear infection.

Children have always been stinkers but I don't remember so many kids being so awful when I was a kid 20 years ago (Curt, shut your mowf.)


keithspernak


Aug 3, 2009, 9:44 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
1. What makes you think that you as a person are more entitled to being at any particular public place than another person who happens to be 5 years old?

2. You are entitled to be annoyed by certain things-- I have my own list, too. I suggest you anticipate these things and take steps to avoid them, instead of expecting other people to stay away in order for you to have a good day. How about going for a longer approach?

3. You obviously don't have kids, so you casn't possibly appreciate the difficulties that adults with kids face, in terms of finding appropriate overnight childcare for young children.

4. You do not have kids, so you can't possibly understand the educational value to kids who are exposed to a variety of situations and see their parents enjoy various activities.

5. There are obnoxious children everywhere, and even the best kids can and do have bad days. The same is true for all adults. When dealing with abnoxious individuals of any age, your best bet is a polite mention to adults in charge. You would be surprized how effective this can be. However, if it doesn't work, go back to point 2.


6. Unless you are under 20yo, and still have some hope of growing up, I suggest that you take steps to make sure that not having kids is a permanent fact for you.

7. I am pretty sure my daughter will outclimb you by the time she is 8yo. She is 6yo now.

Who gives a shit about if someone climbs harder than someone else! Climbing is probably one of the most meaningless things out there.


(This post was edited by keithspernak on Aug 3, 2009, 9:47 PM)


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 9:49 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue

I had one tantrum as a child... one... my mother saw to it that I showed nothing but model behaviour in public. Look, don't touch. Listen, don't speak.

Should I ever try to use her techniques on my son I would have Children's Aid banging down my door because somewhere in the last 20 years it's become illegal to spank, yell or do anything that may potentially harm their self esteem as adults.
And see, that's probably why we get so many unleashed brats these days.

The kids who live next door to me are constantly screaming... SCREAMING... in the street, throwing pebbles at my dogs to make them bark, leaving their candy wrappers in my yard, zipping around my driveway even when the car is running. I know they're too little to know any better, but I never see their parents supervising. Somebody who works a few cubicles over from me regularly brings her kid to work. It is NEVER quiet. It screeches like a dolphin with an ear infection.

Children have always been stinkers but I don't remember so many kids being so awful when I was a kid 20 years ago (Curt, shut your mowf.)

I keep telling you to move out of the trailer park. Cool

Curt


climberguy2011


Aug 3, 2009, 9:50 PM
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Re: [rockreaver] Redemption? [In reply to]
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rockreaver wrote:
You know I'm a parent and I'm a damned good one. I've been told it enough I feel I can quote that and spray a bit. My kids know how to have fun and rip up earth, turf, heaven and hell. However when I give them the "quiet" chat and pull out the bags of age appropriate distractions they shut it and get it done.
It appears to me that this is noting more than bread and circuses.
In reply to:
My wife and I share a view that kids who have a bag of age appropriate distractions (coloring, video games, pocket knives and whittling wood, etc...), food, snacks and parent instilled self-awareness can be taken anywhere and left largely unattended.

My kids have been to the crag admittedly our crags see 20 people a week instead of an hour. That doesn't mean I let my kids act like wild dogs even if I am there by myself. I let my kids hang it all out at the pool, the back yard and other spots like that but in the woods they respect the land and they respect my chance to enjoy it.
Would you like a cookie and a blowjob?

We take our kids everywhere and we talk with them about how they should act. We discuss in the car on the way over what behavior is okay and what behavior is not okay.

Now I do have 3 kids all young. If I packed them into your haunt and got them set up how would you feel? Understand that they would be spread out in a safe place on a blanket with chairs, plenty of food, distractions and a myriad of other things. They would know in advance to say "Hello", "Thank You" and "Let me get my parents for you."

If this situation would have caused you to walk on by and not even notice and not even make this post then I'll let you off the hook. Poorly managed kids ruin everyone's day and I have always believed that my rights end where yours begin and if you feel like you have the right to climb quietly, drop f-bombs and grope your partner that's fine. I'd rather you didn't but those are conversations I planned on having with my kids sooner or later and sooner is fine too. Know what I mean?

So let's aim for some redemption here. Would the situation I describe have sent you over to me and would you have said, "Your kids don't belong here it's not safe?" or would you have even noticed? Also understand that all of my kids even my 4 year old are pretty solid 5.7/5.8 climbers.

How would that situation sit with you? If you'd roll with the same response well then I guess you get what you get and that's how it goes. I don't condemn you or defend you. I'll just step around the body that has all the knives in it's back and tell my kids we'll talk about it later. Wink If however your response would be, "Whoa. That family kicks @$$. I didn't know people still had behaved kids." then sweet. Come on over and we'll pass the fruit snacks. Tongue

Take care man. Not all parents are bad people and not all kids make bad parents. In time life has it's own rhythm don't force it. Clothes your eyes, test the hold and when it feels right make your move. It's all good.

Whatever you do though be kind to kids. I really believe that the adults in a kids life have the biggest influence on whether or not that kid grows up to shoot someone and that someone might be you.Unsure Your behavior will certainly influence the people around you especially kids.

I'll never forget when my son said, "Damn dad that looks fun." he was 7 and I made a mental note to have a chat about that word and that I'd never say that in front of him again.

Belay is on.
I noticed the obscenity. It is less than life. As awesome as it is, the true levels are not that of the spinals.


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 9:52 PM
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Re: [keithspernak] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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keithspernak wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
1. What makes you think that you as a person are more entitled to being at any particular public place than another person who happens to be 5 years old?

2. You are entitled to be annoyed by certain things-- I have my own list, too. I suggest you anticipate these things and take steps to avoid them, instead of expecting other people to stay away in order for you to have a good day. How about going for a longer approach?

3. You obviously don't have kids, so you casn't possibly appreciate the difficulties that adults with kids face, in terms of finding appropriate overnight childcare for young children.

4. You do not have kids, so you can't possibly understand the educational value to kids who are exposed to a variety of situations and see their parents enjoy various activities.

5. There are obnoxious children everywhere, and even the best kids can and do have bad days. The same is true for all adults. When dealing with abnoxious individuals of any age, your best bet is a polite mention to adults in charge. You would be surprized how effective this can be. However, if it doesn't work, go back to point 2.


6. Unless you are under 20yo, and still have some hope of growing up, I suggest that you take steps to make sure that not having kids is a permanent fact for you.

7. I am pretty sure my daughter will outclimb you by the time she is 8yo. She is 6yo now.

Who gives a shit about if someone climbs harder than someone else! Climbing is probably one of the most meaningless things out there.

That's what a whole bunch of weak climbers say. By the way, why do you post here?

Curt


climbsomething


Aug 3, 2009, 9:58 PM
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Re: [curt] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue

I had one tantrum as a child... one... my mother saw to it that I showed nothing but model behaviour in public. Look, don't touch. Listen, don't speak.

Should I ever try to use her techniques on my son I would have Children's Aid banging down my door because somewhere in the last 20 years it's become illegal to spank, yell or do anything that may potentially harm their self esteem as adults.
And see, that's probably why we get so many unleashed brats these days.

The kids who live next door to me are constantly screaming... SCREAMING... in the street, throwing pebbles at my dogs to make them bark, leaving their candy wrappers in my yard, zipping around my driveway even when the car is running. I know they're too little to know any better, but I never see their parents supervising. Somebody who works a few cubicles over from me regularly brings her kid to work. It is NEVER quiet. It screeches like a dolphin with an ear infection.

Children have always been stinkers but I don't remember so many kids being so awful when I was a kid 20 years ago (Curt, shut your mowf.)

I keep telling you to move out of the trailer park. Cool

Curt
Manufactured home community. We gots stemwalls!


curt


Aug 3, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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climbsomething wrote:
curt wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
I know my parents made sure I didn't get away with acting like a shrieking wind-up toy in public. And now, I only have a few crag tantrums Tongue

I had one tantrum as a child... one... my mother saw to it that I showed nothing but model behaviour in public. Look, don't touch. Listen, don't speak.

Should I ever try to use her techniques on my son I would have Children's Aid banging down my door because somewhere in the last 20 years it's become illegal to spank, yell or do anything that may potentially harm their self esteem as adults.
And see, that's probably why we get so many unleashed brats these days.

The kids who live next door to me are constantly screaming... SCREAMING... in the street, throwing pebbles at my dogs to make them bark, leaving their candy wrappers in my yard, zipping around my driveway even when the car is running. I know they're too little to know any better, but I never see their parents supervising. Somebody who works a few cubicles over from me regularly brings her kid to work. It is NEVER quiet. It screeches like a dolphin with an ear infection.

Children have always been stinkers but I don't remember so many kids being so awful when I was a kid 20 years ago (Curt, shut your mowf.)

I keep telling you to move out of the trailer park. Cool

Curt
Manufactured home community. We gots stemwalls!

Ah, my mistake then.

Curt

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