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bobbj22


Aug 4, 2009, 2:03 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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YOU are rather empty-minded.


mnottingham


Aug 4, 2009, 2:08 PM
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Re: [bigevilgrape] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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bigevilgrape wrote:
I'm going to break my silence here.

I think it is inappropriate to bring 3 children up to a destination crag on a weekend. Children are more suited to being at smaller crags with fewer people. And I think it takes a lot of gull to criticize someone for swearing just because they have kids with them. Its an adult location and Rumney is a place people take big trips to. I see no reason why anyone should have to change their behavior because you decided to bring your children to an adult location.

lena_chita wrote:
3. You obviously don't have kids, so you casn't possibly appreciate the difficulties that adults with kids face, in terms of finding appropriate overnight childcare for young children.

Invalid: I know the difficulties in finding overnight childcare because I have been the one watching peoples kids many times, but what the hell. You CHOSE to have kids so you chose to take on this challenge. (We won't go into my thoughts for people who didn't chose to have their kids) Sometimes you have to put off a climbing trip and wait until the kids are old enough to behave safely and appropriately for that trip

The other problem I see in this picture is 3 toddlers and 3 adults. Its one thing to bring one toddler out to the crag, but 3? That's asking for trouble. At a place where there is very little room at the bottom of the crag and with 3 little ones running around someone is gonna take a digger over the edge and go tumbling down the very steep hill behind them.

I don't think its a question of leaving all kids at home, its about knowing when it is appropriate to bring them with you. To me this is a case where it was clearly inappropriate as well as unsafe. And to be honest I see more parents who don't know how to deal with their kids when they take them climbing then those who do. (Which is exactly how I feel about crag dogs since people feel the need to draw similarities)

And for the love of god if you don't want your children to hear anyone swear then you shouldn't take them to places you know there will be swearing.

Amen brother. The guy who posted seemed more concerned about the safety of the kids then the three soccer moms who were neglecting them. I'm sick of parents assuming higher moral ground because......they're parents(?) So some critter crawled out your vag! congratulations! You parents are superior to all of us non-parents. You can procreate? We're all impressed. All the BS about "you can't possibly appreciate the challenges of parenthood...blah blah.. daycare..etc" I do appreciate the challenges and expenses of raising children, that's why I've decided to live my life without them. Go ahead parents, tell me my life is worthless, unfullfilled, and empty. We non-parents have heard all that propaganda before. In ten years those three women will be spending every weekend at soccer or field hockey or baseball games. They'll be socking away every dime for college, praying their daughters don't get pregnant, and wondering when their son will crash their car. While we, my non-parent friends and I, will still be singing our favorite tune -- "I'm so glad I don't have children", buying shiny new cams and taking expensive overseas climbing trips with money that would have been wasted on some brat's college education.

In a complete coincidence, Saturday at the Home Depot i took out some kid with my cart full of lumber. Actually, he ran straight into the 2x4 on my cart, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. Seriously. I was horrified. Especially when I realized Dad was about 6'3" 250. He was not damaged, maybe just a small dent in his skullWink

I really like kids, it's the bad parents that get to me.


bigevilgrape


Aug 4, 2009, 2:47 PM
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Re: [curt] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
I'm not completely surprised that you would support the singularly selfish perspective here, but I am somewhat surprised that you don't have more empathy for those who have children.

Curt

What strikes me as selfish is a group of parents who's children don't yet know how to act at the crag bring said children along with them to a crowded place and according to the OP don't do anything about the situation, but decided what the hell we'll ruin everyone else's day by toting them along with us.

I don't see how me expecting children who go along with their parents to know how to behave safely and appropriately is selfish.


lena_chita wrote:
I agree that people should'nt have kids unless they have thought through the rumifications of that decision and are willing to accept the resonsibilities that come with that decision. Idon't agree with the rest. Children learn by doing...

I think what you are failing to understand my underlying point. Rumney is an inappropriate place to bring 3 toddlers who don't understand how to behave when you take them rockclimbing. The appropriate place to teach these behaviors is at a quiet local crag. Despite what people think Rumney, White Horse and Cathedral are not the only places to go climbing in New Hampshire and if you are a local to the area there are better choices for a weekend outing with children. When I took my rock climbing class in college we went to several rarely visited climbing spots in that area, so I know they are around. (Or professors had the good sense not to bring noisy obnoxious college kids to crowded places) Once they have learned how to behave safely at a quieter location bring them anywhere you like.

I am not an anti-child person. I spent 3 years of my life working part time at a YMCA teaching cildren between 6 months and 5 years old how to swim. And according to surveys filled out by parents, and requests by parents to have me as thier childs teacher for the next session parents loved me. At the same time I would prefer to climb when no children are around and I'm fortunate enough that this is the case 80% of the time I climb. I realize that it is unreasonable to expect never to have to share a crag with a family, but it doesn't mean its my favorite thing int he world.

I also think its important to get kids outdoors. If we have any hope of preserving these places for the future we need to get kids involved in the outdoors. (I've spent many days taking kids outdoors to climb and do ropes courses because I think its important. But we went to quiet often empty crags during week days)But that doesn't mean you should bring them to the only sport climbing destination in the north east to teach them how to behave while rock climbing.


(This post was edited by bigevilgrape on Aug 4, 2009, 3:22 PM)


rockreaver


Aug 4, 2009, 3:16 PM
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Re: [dingus] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I wasted the best years of my life chasing money. Now I'm older (a bit) and wiser (arguable) and I'm chasing the earth. It's a breath-taking playground and I dig it.

I have no idea where my love of high places went but for 10 years it was buried under love for stuff and crap. Now I'm oh... 100 pounds lighter, climbing, laughing and valuing life a lot more.

It's kind of perfect really. Instead of my kids keeping me from doing they are driving me on to do it more. I would love to see the looks on the faces of the other kids when my son says he spent the summer climbing mountains and rock faces, sleeping in tents, warming up under fires and getting back to a more basic life.

Now I'm preparing to give him stories for when Christmas break is over and he can say he spent the winter in snow-shoes and high places.

We are going to have a ton of fun. We are getting soft-gear now. Shells and such to spin into fall. I'm digging life. Big-time!

Kids? Where? Oh yeah mine? They are tied in behind me. SWEET! Wink At least if they are tied in I can keep an eye on them.


subantz


Aug 4, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Re: [wjca] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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YEA I WIN. Hope I pissed you off if so mission accomplished. I WIN, LOSER


jakedatc


Aug 4, 2009, 3:25 PM
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Re: [budman] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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budman wrote:
Wish my Mom had taken me climbing when I was 3 1/2. That's why I took my kids when they were very young. If you take you children climbing, then climb with them. If you are there to climb then leave them home, unless there is adult supervision. For those not very tolerant of children, act like an adult and pick somewhere else to climb. Give the kids their day, there will be another day for your project. As to the language thing, if you can't see why it's wrong and can't respect that then you probably have no respect for your self as well. Oh yeh, taking your kids outside to climb is one of the best things for you and them.

what the FUCK? Let the KIDS have THEIR day? Fuck you, If i'm driving 3+ hours somewhere i'm climbing for fucking ME , fuck your kid. If i was there with those stupid people and their obnoxious kids i would have moved to a different crag.. LOUDLY bitching about how rude parents are that cannot control their spawn.

Rumney is a SPORT climbing area.. projecting and pushing limits is what it is FOR. Go bring your kid to some backwoods TR crag

Parents have a CHOICE to bring their kids climbing.. CHOICE. IF you want to go climb bad enough you CAN make it happen, somehow. Others at the crag do NOT have a choice if YOUR kid shows up and is a screaming shithead. They do not have a CHOICE if they get plugged in the head by a rock thrown off a cliff. They don't have a CHOICE seeing your child go flopping off a cliff to their probable death if they aren't watched and go over an edge.

I worked with children for 4 years when i was younger and now i work in either the high school or college setting. while i'm WORKING i will watch my language. If i'm out climbing and something causes me to swear. I don't give a FUCK if your child hears me and then repeats it for the next 3 months.

The parents should have acted like ADULTS and watched their offspring so they didn't piss everyone else off. These parents don't sound like they were climbing WITH their children.. it sounds like they BROUGHT them climbing.. like little yappy dogs in purses.

I tolerate well behaved kids and kids that are controlled by their parents. As i said i was part of a group with a 3 yr old who barely said boo the whole weekend.


karmiclimber


Aug 4, 2009, 3:29 PM
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Re: [budman] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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I totally agree with everything you posted. Maybe someday I'll get lucky and my little one will get over her fear of heights...if not, I'll be no less proud of her. She is pretty rad already, if I do say so myself. I just don't ever want to be the parent FORCING my love/belief/whatever on my child.


karmiclimber


Aug 4, 2009, 3:40 PM
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Re: [mnottingham] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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mnottingham wrote:
bigevilgrape wrote:
I'm going to break my silence here.

I think it is inappropriate to bring 3 children up to a destination crag on a weekend. Children are more suited to being at smaller crags with fewer people. And I think it takes a lot of gull to criticize someone for swearing just because they have kids with them. Its an adult location and Rumney is a place people take big trips to. I see no reason why anyone should have to change their behavior because you decided to bring your children to an adult location.

lena_chita wrote:
3. You obviously don't have kids, so you casn't possibly appreciate the difficulties that adults with kids face, in terms of finding appropriate overnight childcare for young children.

Invalid: I know the difficulties in finding overnight childcare because I have been the one watching peoples kids many times, but what the hell. You CHOSE to have kids so you chose to take on this challenge. (We won't go into my thoughts for people who didn't chose to have their kids) Sometimes you have to put off a climbing trip and wait until the kids are old enough to behave safely and appropriately for that trip

The other problem I see in this picture is 3 toddlers and 3 adults. Its one thing to bring one toddler out to the crag, but 3? That's asking for trouble. At a place where there is very little room at the bottom of the crag and with 3 little ones running around someone is gonna take a digger over the edge and go tumbling down the very steep hill behind them.

I don't think its a question of leaving all kids at home, its about knowing when it is appropriate to bring them with you. To me this is a case where it was clearly inappropriate as well as unsafe. And to be honest I see more parents who don't know how to deal with their kids when they take them climbing then those who do. (Which is exactly how I feel about crag dogs since people feel the need to draw similarities)

And for the love of god if you don't want your children to hear anyone swear then you shouldn't take them to places you know there will be swearing.

Amen brother. The guy who posted seemed more concerned about the safety of the kids then the three soccer moms who were neglecting them. I'm sick of parents assuming higher moral ground because......they're parents(?) So some critter crawled out your vag! congratulations! You parents are superior to all of us non-parents. You can procreate? We're all impressed. All the BS about "you can't possibly appreciate the challenges of parenthood...blah blah.. daycare..etc" I do appreciate the challenges and expenses of raising children, that's why I've decided to live my life without them. Go ahead parents, tell me my life is worthless, unfullfilled, and empty. We non-parents have heard all that propaganda before. In ten years those three women will be spending every weekend at soccer or field hockey or baseball games. They'll be socking away every dime for college, praying their daughters don't get pregnant, and wondering when their son will crash their car. While we, my non-parent friends and I, will still be singing our favorite tune -- "I'm so glad I don't have children", buying shiny new cams and taking expensive overseas climbing trips with money that would have been wasted on some brat's college education.

In a complete coincidence, Saturday at the Home Depot i took out some kid with my cart full of lumber. Actually, he ran straight into the 2x4 on my cart, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. Seriously. I was horrified. Especially when I realized Dad was about 6'3" 250. He was not damaged, maybe just a small dent in his skullWink

I really like kids, it's the bad parents that get to me.

I'm a mom. I 100 percent agree with you! Not with the not-have-kids part obviously, haha. So many people do not look before they leap with kids. I decided it was something I wanted, I could fit it in my budget and did it knowing full well what impact it would have on my activities (climbing, hiking, etc.) as well as the rest of my life. And I will never be caught bitching about my responsbility as a mom...its a gift...not some burden that I have trouble fitting into my schedule. And she is a person...her own person...and I am charged with her safety.


dingus


Aug 4, 2009, 3:41 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
I tolerate well behaved kids

Well that's mighty big of you. Now I shall tolerate you.

Subject to new information of course.

DMT


shorty


Aug 4, 2009, 3:51 PM
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dingus wrote:
I still party like its 1999 though. Wear the same clothes too. Even the underwear.

Too...Much...Information


shockabuku


Aug 4, 2009, 3:51 PM
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Re: [bobbj22] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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bobbj22 wrote:
YOU are rather empty-minded.

Maybe, may be.


jakedatc


Aug 4, 2009, 4:02 PM
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Re: [dingus] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
I tolerate well behaved kids

Well that's mighty big of you. Now I shall tolerate you.

Subject to new information of course.

DMT

not sure if that was meant to be good or not. but it got me thinking..

Should people tolerate folks letting their cells ring in movies, talking to their friends loudly while others are trying to watch? Should parents bring small children to movies they aren't actually there to watch but rather be dragged along as accessories? Would you sit there in church while your kid screamed their head off?

why is it Ok for them to bring them climbing and be rude but not Ok in other situations?

I don't get why people keep bringing up WELL BEHAVED children.. this isn't what the OP was talking about. These kids were spastic, crying, danger to themselves with little to no reprimand.

there looks to have been no.. "teaching about nature, wilderness experience, outdoor adventure" it sounds like it was we're going to climb, you sit there with out friend and we'll talk to you in a few hours.

Re: Wonderwoman. Tiff you know as well as i do that the scenario described is not the status quo for Rumney. I've seen far more clusterfucks at the gunks than i have at Rumney and i've been at Rumney like 200 times more than the gunks.


dingus


Aug 4, 2009, 4:10 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Should people tolerate folks letting their cells ring in movies, talking to their friends loudly while others are trying to watch? Should parents bring small children to movies they aren't actually there to watch but rather be dragged along as accessories?

In my new mode of benevolent tolerance Ima gunna break it down for you...

a movie theater is a commercial business. Customers pay money to go inside and receive a certain experience. These customers hold certain expectations and in turn hold the business establishment to those expectations.

On the other hand Rumney is NOT a business. You AREN'T paying anyone to provide you with your sculpted experience. In the cases of many public climbing venues, those parents own an equal share of the place as you.

But you knew all this. What's your real point here?

Your way or the highway, right?

Whyn't YOU go to an out of the way crag, instead? When I feel antisocial that's what I do. We have our Rumney equivalents round here and the socalled adults are no improvement over the kids.

Chances are good I might find you more annoying than the brat down the way.... what then?

No no, See I shall tolerate you. I promised. If that tolerance causes me grief then I will conduct myself elsewhere.

In fact I already did!

Cheers
DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Aug 4, 2009, 4:11 PM)


kriso9tails


Aug 4, 2009, 4:11 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
I don't get why people keep bringing up WELL BEHAVED children.. this isn't what the OP was talking about. These kids were spastic, crying, danger to themselves with little to no reprimand.

Probably because the OP started the rant portion of his post with this:

In reply to:
Leave your children at home. They do not belong at the crag, and by bringing them, you are not only ruining someone else's good time, you are putting them in a hazardous environment where the supervision is distracted by ideations of sending some sick 5.9 routes.

It comes off as a universal indictment.


eastvillage


Aug 4, 2009, 4:17 PM
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Re: [climberguy2011] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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Lot's of emotion here, naturally, as kids are involved.
Back to the OP:I will say that the base area's of popular crags are very dangerous places and having kids or dogs running and lounging around puts them in considerable danger of being hit by rocks or dropped equipment.
it seems negligent to expose very small children to these very real threats. Check out the Mountain Project thread about the massive rockfall on Rewritten.
The cliffs are dangerous whether you are are below them, on them or on top of them.


jakedatc


Aug 4, 2009, 4:23 PM
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No, it's not a business but people do spend plenty of money driving there and camping to stay there. It is a public place so people should have respect for others and conduct themselves and control their children in a respectful way.

I'll bring my stupid lab next time and let her run amuck every where. She can have a great outdoor experience. Sure she'll be a pain in the ass.. she loves chasing things.. digging in the dirt, eating anything she can find at or below face level. she really loves barking at people and other dogs and doesn't seem to have a limit to how long she can keep it up. If parents let their kids do what they want, why should i not let my dog?

I'm not antisocial. . I talk to tons of people up there. i have an above average knowledge of the area and since the guidebook is out of date i have no problem helping people out and chatting.


Partner happiegrrrl


Aug 4, 2009, 4:23 PM
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I think the thing that got people upset was more the "tone" of the OP's rant(as had been mentioned before).
- "Leave your damn kids at home" as a title
- Attempting to belittle such a person who wouldbring a child to the crag with phrases such as
In reply to:
....where the supervision is distracted by ideations of sending some sick 5.9 routes.
-
In reply to:
Keep your fucking kids at home.
-
In reply to:
Leave the little bastards at home
-
In reply to:
don't fucking care how cute they look in their little full body harness, or if they are the next chris fucking sharma.


Troll, I still asert. But it's easy to see how that viciousness, which DOES seem to be aimed at all people with kids, and NOT just the type he's describing. It's not hard to iwonder if the dud may have taken at least a little poetic license in painting the picture of these gawdawful women with their children.


The dude pretty clearly has anger management issues. Or else just a well-seasoned troll(which pretty much means he has anger issues in and of itself).

Had the thread been written with a different tone, as has also already been said - the guy would NOT have gotten the grief he did, but more likely some tut-tutting, and requests to try to understand that sometimes people try to plan as best they can, when it comes to kids, and things don't actually turn out as they'd expected.

He asked for a fight, whether he is aware of that fact or not, and that's what he got. He set it up that way from the get go.


lena_chita
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Aug 4, 2009, 4:38 PM
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karmiclimber wrote:
I totally agree. As a single mom of a 3 1/2 year old, I would not dream of taking my child on a climbing trip. To the gym? Yes. On a camping trip? Yes. Hiking? Yup.
I would not take her on a climbing trip (yet) because its not the place for a toddler, for numerous reasons:
1. I can't keep an eye on her and concentrate on climbing/belaying...both of those things would need my undivided attention..

you decide what to do with your child, of course, but to me this looks like the other side of the extreme. Of course she needs your undivided attention-- which is why, when my daughter was 2.5yo, we only brought her on a trip when there were 3 adults, or a larger number of odd-number adults in a party. She was supervised by one adult at all times, and that adult did nothing but supervise her. In practical terms it looked like this: I played with my daughter/fed her/ took her for walks while my husband climbed and person 3 belayed. then my husband belayed while person 3 climbed. Then person 3 belayed while I climbed and my husband watched the child. Occasionally person 3 watched her, but mostly it was a job divided between me and my husband. Not every climber is suitable for the role of person 3, but we had one or two who were suitable...

The first time ever that we had two climbers and the children along was last year, when the younger one was 5.5yo, and the older one was 9.5 yo. By that age I felt confident that the kids knew the basics.

karmiclimber wrote:
2. What if something happens to me or my partner and one of us is injured?.

That's why you need person 3 ( or more). And that's why you are not going to remote locations where you would be the only climbing party.

karmiclimber wrote:
3. Snakes, poison ivy, crag dogs, edges of cliffs...etc?.

All potentially hazardous, but no more so than they would be on a hike, b/c remember, there is one person whose undivided attention is on the child.

karmiclimber wrote:
4. What if she starts harassing other climbers who are trying to belay or climb?

Not if the adult in charge is doing his/her job. If the child gets antsy or disruptive, the adult takes her for a walk, away from the crag, to walk off steam.

karmiclimber wrote:
Honestly, the whole thing sounds like a mess to me. But when she is older and I do take her, you damn well better believe she will not be running around, screaming and acting all crazy like.

Good!


Partner wideguy


Aug 4, 2009, 4:55 PM
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austinnokc wrote:
Wow, This thread has gone crazy.

Crazy is right!! By page 3 three people had agreed with Jake, possibly a first on ANY topic on RC.n00bTongue


ANNNND one of them WASN'T the OP, who he was supporting, who ripped him on Page 4!

Dogs and cats, living in sin!Shocked

I have no issue with well behaved anything at the crag... kids, dogs, pythons ... or adults. Poorly controlled or poorly behaved kids, dogs, pythons, or adults should have their behavior corrected. (for especially distasteful adults, perhaps a #7 tricam swung in a large arc. ..)

and +1 for the OP being a tool.


(This post was edited by wideguy on Aug 4, 2009, 5:00 PM)


reno


Aug 4, 2009, 5:08 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
I'll bring my stupid lab next time and let her run amuck every where. She can have a great outdoor experience. Sure she'll be a pain in the ass.. she loves chasing things.. digging in the dirt, eating anything she can find at or below face level. she really loves barking at people and other dogs and doesn't seem to have a limit to how long she can keep it up. If parents let their kids do what they want, why should i not let my dog?

Not having read through this entire (stupid) thread, I may end up getting GU'd here, but did the OP's post talk about these kids pissing on other people's packs, eating their food, etc?

They're people, Jake. Kids, sure, but people nonetheless, and they have as much right to be at any given public location as you do.

A public crag is not the sole property of climbers, no matter how important or selfish you are, Jake.


Partner robdotcalm


Aug 4, 2009, 5:19 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:

Iand the kids were still rather loud and disruptive to other people, though less so than the first case, b/c the parents were very vigilant. In this particular case I happen to know that the kids have certain ADHD and Aspergers issues.

It appears that these kids have personality traits that will help them become good climbers .

cheers, r.c


karmiclimber


Aug 4, 2009, 5:22 PM
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Lena, none of what I said was aimed at you. You seem to know what you are doing...and you have a good situation with people watching children at all times. It just seems like some people have zero common sense when it comes to kids and climbing. Or kids in general. But like I said in my one post...every situation and child is different.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 4, 2009, 5:26 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
These kids were spastic, crying, danger to themselves with little to no reprimand.
According to the op. Are you really going to take someone's side who refers to children as little bastards?

In reply to:
there looks to have been no.. "teaching about nature, wilderness experience, outdoor adventure"
Once again, according to the op.

In reply to:
it sounds like it was we're going to climb, you sit there with out friend and we'll talk to you in a few hours.
see above.

In reply to:
Re: Wonderwoman. Tiff you know as well as i do that the scenario described is not the status quo for Rumney. I've seen far more clusterfucks at the gunks than i have at Rumney and i've been at Rumney like 200 times more than the gunks.

THe Gunks do indeed have clusterfucks, but they are usually centralized in a few locations, whereas any gym n00b can throw themselves at any route at Rumney without worrying too much about anything. Now, don't take this too much to heart. The one or two times Tiff and I go to Rumney a year, we have a blast, but to say it's not a zoo on the weekends is not Korect, sir!

JoshCool


jakedatc


Aug 4, 2009, 5:32 PM
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Re: [reno] Leave your damn kids at home [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
I'll bring my stupid lab next time and let her run amuck every where. She can have a great outdoor experience. Sure she'll be a pain in the ass.. she loves chasing things.. digging in the dirt, eating anything she can find at or below face level. she really loves barking at people and other dogs and doesn't seem to have a limit to how long she can keep it up. If parents let their kids do what they want, why should i not let my dog?

Not having read through this entire (stupid) thread, I may end up getting GU'd here, but did the OP's post talk about these kids pissing on other people's packs, eating their food, etc?

They're people, Jake. Kids, sure, but people nonetheless, and they have as much right to be at any given public location as you do.

A public crag is not the sole property of climbers, no matter how important or selfish you are, Jake.

I actually wont bring her, she belongs to my parents and she was (not) trained while i was at college so she can't be trusted anywhere. But neither could these children with the present supervision, clearly.

and EXACTLY, The crag is for everyone.. which means I or anyone else shouldn't have to have a shitty time.. or have to move to a different crag because some parent's can't get their kids to stfu or make a complete clusterfuck of the base.

not sure how i'm being selfish saying that 1 set of parents shouldn't ruin a whole crag by their inattentiveness.


dingus


Aug 4, 2009, 5:37 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
No, it's not a business but people do spend plenty of money driving there and camping to stay there. It is a public place

So's the beach. There is no difference, at the end of the day.

I totally agree about safety issues and said so, btw. But screaming, running around like kids, throwing stones.... as disrespectful as it is of your personal privacy, so is the big group of loud mouth shit talkers wanking abut routes with names like 'that's 12c over there.'

Now I do understand the annoyance. I do. And a good rant is therapeutic, carry on.

Its not all that common in my experience. And its never going to change.

I'm tellin ya - watch A few episodes of Malcom in the Middle. You don't even have to watch a whole episode, about 5 minutes each (channel 40 reruns, hehe, channel flipping, with 8 channels of shit to choose from you eventually see the whole thing in mosiac!)...

Its explains EVERYTHING about brain dead parents.

DMT

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