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Jazza11


Aug 16, 2009, 11:44 PM
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Climbing advise
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I hav'nt actually started climbing but i really want to their is a climbing gym just near me so thats a plus but i wanted to know about becoming fiter and pre-pairing for climbing as i am hardly health at all right now i was wondering if someone could give me some tips on how to increase my health and fitness specificaly for climbing like should i buy a new bike or get a exercise bike to improve my cartiovascular fitness??? any advise is welcome and much appreciated.


uni_jim


Aug 16, 2009, 11:47 PM
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when i wanted to play baseball, i started off by bowling as often as i could.


blkela


Aug 17, 2009, 12:31 AM
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For a beginner you should start out with something aerobic (running, biking, swimming, power walking, etc.) and also some low level weights with high reps to build your endurance. Get a hand-strengthener (the squeeze type) to develop finger and forearm strength. That and eating right should get you started.
Go to the gym and see what they have to say. They could probably give you a better analysis for you too.


uni_jim


Aug 17, 2009, 12:46 AM
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just go and climb dude! only once you want to start pushing your climbing should you have to train for climbing.

Climbing, believe it or not, is a sport for all bodytypes, now tie in and pull down!


Hooky


Aug 17, 2009, 1:03 AM
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Just start climbing. You'll probably feel that you are too weak and need to strengthen your arms and fingers but unless you are in a really bad shape, this is probably due to your poor climbing technique. Also try climbing on a real rock, in my experience it requires much less strength to just stay on the rock (as opposed to gym) and is much more rewarding.
You can do some general conditioning to improve your overall fintness level and generally strengthen your arms - this also prevents injury. You will also greatly benefit from flexibility training (stretching).
Whatever you do, stay away from any climbing specific conditioning, like campus boards, finger boards etc. You absolutely do not need this and would only risk an injury.


bill413


Aug 17, 2009, 8:09 AM
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uni_jim wrote:
when i wanted to play baseball, i started off by bowling as often as i could.

And how did that work for you? Wink


Carnage


Aug 17, 2009, 8:46 AM
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blkela wrote:
For a beginner you should start out with something aerobic (running, biking, swimming, power walking, etc.) and also some low level weights with high reps to build your endurance. Get a hand-strengthener (the squeeze type) to develop finger and forearm strength. That and eating right should get you started.
Go to the gym and see what they have to say. They could probably give you a better analysis for you too.

this is awful advice. just climb

no actual rock climber i've ever talked to actually recommended a hand strengthener. it will not help your rock climbing.


LostinMaine


Aug 17, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Carnage wrote:
blkela wrote:
For a beginner you should start out with something aerobic (running, biking, swimming, power walking, etc.) and also some low level weights with high reps to build your endurance. Get a hand-strengthener (the squeeze type) to develop finger and forearm strength. That and eating right should get you started.
Go to the gym and see what they have to say. They could probably give you a better analysis for you too.

this is awful advice. just climb

no actual rock climber i've ever talked to actually recommended a hand strengthener. it will not help your rock climbing.

Let's make an assumption that a "hand strengthener" was just that... something to strengthen your hands. If that was true, how is it that a hand strengthener will not help with holding onto a rock? At the very least, it might increase the time for a new climber to become gripped from holding on too tightly.


acorneau


Aug 17, 2009, 12:31 PM
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Jazza11 wrote:
I hav'nt actually started climbing but i really want to their is a climbing gym just near me so thats a plus but i wanted to know about becoming fiter and pre-pairing for climbing as i am hardly health at all right now i was wondering if someone could give me some tips on how to increase my health and fitness specificaly for climbing like should i buy a new bike or get a exercise bike to improve my cartiovascular fitness??? any advise is welcome and much appreciated.


Quoted for complete lack of sentence structure, punctuation, and spelling!!!
CrazyShockedWink


ckirkwood9


Aug 17, 2009, 1:02 PM
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Carnage wrote:
blkela wrote:
For a beginner you should start out with something aerobic (running, biking, swimming, power walking, etc.) and also some low level weights with high reps to build your endurance. Get a hand-strengthener (the squeeze type) to develop finger and forearm strength. That and eating right should get you started.
Go to the gym and see what they have to say. They could probably give you a better analysis for you too.

this is awful advice. just climb

no actual rock climber i've ever talked to actually recommended a hand strengthener. it will not help your rock climbing.


I agree w/the blkela. Climbing is very fore-arm intensive.... most people don't have very strong forearms (unless they work construction, race bicycles/motorcycles, or eat lots of spinach! lol)

Hand trainers also work the climbing-specific forearm muscles, and while balance, flexibility and core strength are supremely important, a little bit of forearm strength will go a long way on a long day at the crag, ESPECIALLY for a beginner while they're learning the finesse of climbing.

Many beginners forearms/hands burn out long before their motivation does SO Stronger forearms will never hurt. (nor will stronger lats/abs/shoulders/legs/hands/toes/etc for that matter - so most strength/endurance exercise will help a new climber.

Anyway - I say get one of the blue rings (that look like a dog chew toy)

http://www.buzzillions.com/reviews/black-diamond-forearm-trainer-reviews

(by the way - 4.6 out of 5 stars from 58 reviewers)

Carry it with you, mindlessly squeezing the heck out of it...

They're also good for those times in most climbers lives when they're forced to focus on life (as opposed to climbing). I've found that climbing strength and endurance goes away fairly quickly if you don't keep climbing. The forearm trainers will help you keep some of this strength until the crazy work or life schedule quiets down and you can get back to the rock.

Cheers.


shockabuku


Aug 17, 2009, 1:38 PM
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Save your money; go climbing instead of buying those "forearm strengtheners". I've never known a climber who said they were of any use.


qtm


Aug 17, 2009, 1:53 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
Save your money; go climbing instead of buying those "forearm strengtheners". I've never known a climber who said they were of any use.

You can build a cheap "forearm strengthener" with a 1' section of 1-1/2" dowel (or just a stick from the back yard), 3' of cord, and a 1/2 gallon milk jug filled with sand or dirt.

Clove hitch the cord to middle of stick. Tie cord to milk jug. Hold out in front of you and roll to lift the jug, and unroll to lower. Adjust level of sand to suit your needs.

Does give you a good pump... not sure if it does anything for your climbing, but it doesn't cost much to build.


(This post was edited by qtm on Aug 17, 2009, 1:53 PM)


blueeyedclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 1:53 PM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
Carnage wrote:
blkela wrote:
For a beginner you should start out with something aerobic (running, biking, swimming, power walking, etc.) and also some low level weights with high reps to build your endurance. Get a hand-strengthener (the squeeze type) to develop finger and forearm strength. That and eating right should get you started.
Go to the gym and see what they have to say. They could probably give you a better analysis for you too.

this is awful advice. just climb

no actual rock climber i've ever talked to actually recommended a hand strengthener. it will not help your rock climbing.


I agree w/the blkela. Climbing is very fore-arm intensive.... most people don't have very strong forearms (unless they work construction, race bicycles/motorcycles, or eat lots of spinach! lol)

Hand trainers also work the climbing-specific forearm muscles, and while balance, flexibility and core strength are supremely important, a little bit of forearm strength will go a long way on a long day at the crag, ESPECIALLY for a beginner while they're learning the finesse of climbing.

Many beginners forearms/hands burn out long before their motivation does SO Stronger forearms will never hurt. (nor will stronger lats/abs/shoulders/legs/hands/toes/etc for that matter - so most strength/endurance exercise will help a new climber.

Anyway - I say get one of the blue rings (that look like a dog chew toy)

http://www.buzzillions.com/reviews/black-diamond-forearm-trainer-reviews

(by the way - 4.6 out of 5 stars from 58 reviewers)

Carry it with you, mindlessly squeezing the heck out of it...

They're also good for those times in most climbers lives when they're forced to focus on life (as opposed to climbing). I've found that climbing strength and endurance goes away fairly quickly if you don't keep climbing. The forearm trainers will help you keep some of this strength until the crazy work or life schedule quiets down and you can get back to the rock.

Cheers.

Then you are agreeing with BAD advice. Muscles strengthen very quickly when compared to tendons. The best thing for a beginner to do is to just climb and focus on technique. Tendons can take months or even years to strengthen, and this is usually where beginners too eager to get strong and pull down hard, get injured.

Josh


LostinMaine


Aug 17, 2009, 2:10 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:

Then you are agreeing with BAD advice. Muscles strengthen very quickly when compared to tendons. The best thing for a beginner to do is to just climb and focus on technique. Tendons can take months or even years to strengthen, and this is usually where beginners too eager to get strong and pull down hard, get injured.

Josh

I have known many climbers to get injured immediately climbing "hard" the first few times ever climbing. It is very stressful on the body to be exposed to heights, overusing their arms and not using their feet, trusting ropes, etc.

Someone using a hand strengthener can make great strides with climbing (going through PT helped me a lot with climbing). I see no reason not to recommend a hand trainer because there is fear that someone might try to climb too hard after using it.

People with overzealous and foolish personalities will always find a way to hurt themselves without any assistance.


lrossi


Aug 17, 2009, 2:13 PM
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Jazza11 wrote:
I hav'nt actually started climbing but i really want to their is a climbing gym just near me so thats a plus but i wanted to know about becoming fiter and pre-pairing for climbing as i am hardly health at all right now i was wondering if someone could give me some tips on how to increase my health and fitness specificaly for climbing like should i buy a new bike or get a exercise bike to improve my cartiovascular fitness??? any advise is welcome and much appreciated.

Start with sentences. Eventually you can move up to paragraphs.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 2:23 PM
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LostinMaine wrote:

I have known many climbers to get injured immediately climbing "hard" the first few times ever climbing. It is very stressful on the body to be exposed to heights, overusing their arms and not using their feet, trusting ropes, etc.
what was getting injured? Do you really think a hand strengthener could have prevented it?

In reply to:
Someone using a hand strengthener can make great strides with climbing (going through PT helped me a lot with climbing). I see no reason not to recommend a hand trainer because there is fear that someone might try to climb too hard after using it.
It's called specificity of training. Look it up.

In reply to:
People with overzealous and foolish personalities will always find a way to hurt themselves without any assistance.

People with overzealous and foolish personalities shouldn't climb. Period.

Josh


LostinMaine


Aug 17, 2009, 2:35 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
LostinMaine wrote:

I have known many climbers to get injured immediately climbing "hard" the first few times ever climbing. It is very stressful on the body to be exposed to heights, overusing their arms and not using their feet, trusting ropes, etc.
what was getting injured? Do you really think a hand strengthener could have prevented it?

In reply to:
Someone using a hand strengthener can make great strides with climbing (going through PT helped me a lot with climbing). I see no reason not to recommend a hand trainer because there is fear that someone might try to climb too hard after using it.
It's called specificity of training. Look it up.

In reply to:
People with overzealous and foolish personalities will always find a way to hurt themselves without any assistance.

People with overzealous and foolish personalities shouldn't climb. Period.

Josh

Easy, there. I'm not out to pick a fight. No need to use the "look it up" line... I spend most of my time "looking it up."

To answer specifically. Nope, I don't think a hand strengthener would have fixed the problem. I never suggested or implied that it could. I simply mentioned that people get hurt due to the stresses that first-time climbing can put on a body. I just didn't see how strengthening a muscle group that is used commonly for climbing would be a "bad" thing.

I am quite aware that specific training regimes exist for climbing or any other activity. The original question was not "how can climbing help me train for climbing" it was more along the lines of "is there anything I can do aside from climbing to help me prepare for climbing." Your advice is simply to climb (which I agree with). However, not everyone has the luxury of climbing at the drop of a hat. Surely there are a series of exercises that are not climbing, that can help with climbing (wasn't there a program out from several strong climbers like Longo or John Gill?).

I also agree that foolish people shouldn't climb. That doesn't mean that they won't, though. I see no reason that an overzealous person should not climb, though. Being overly enthusiastic isn't a negative trait, necessarily.


minibiter


Aug 17, 2009, 2:45 PM
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Go climb.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 2:54 PM
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LostinMaine wrote:
Easy, there. I'm not out to pick a fight. No need to use the "look it up" line... I spend most of my time "looking it up."

To answer specifically. Nope, I don't think a hand strengthener would have fixed the problem. I never suggested or implied that it could. I simply mentioned that people get hurt due to the stresses that first-time climbing can put on a body. I just didn't see how strengthening a muscle group that is used commonly for climbing would be a "bad" thing.

I am quite aware that specific training regimes exist for climbing or any other activity. The original question was not "how can climbing help me train for climbing" it was more along the lines of "is there anything I can do aside from climbing to help me prepare for climbing." Your advice is simply to climb (which I agree with). However, not everyone has the luxury of climbing at the drop of a hat. Surely there are a series of exercises that are not climbing, that can help with climbing (wasn't there a program out from several strong climbers like Longo or John Gill?).

I also agree that foolish people shouldn't climb. That doesn't mean that they won't, though. I see no reason that an overzealous person should not climb, though. Being overly enthusiastic isn't a negative trait, necessarily.

Not tying to pick a fight or be rude. IT's just that I have seen many people give the advice that your giving, when it's wrong advice. It's not dangerous advice, it just won't really help a beginner. THe op was asking if there was any additional exercises that would help in the beginning and the only correct way to answer that question is to say climb, climb and climb some more. The only different advice I could give is if someone was overweight or needed to shed a few pounds. Then adding cardio to lose weight would be a good idea.

As far as training programs from high-end climbers, training does help once you get to a more advanced level.

In reference to your implication that people can get hurt from the stresses of firs-time climbing, you are correct. The first time you climb, or do any new activity for that matter, you are using new muscles/muscles groups in a way that you possibly haven't before. When you use a hand strengthen before climbing, you are training your muscle to do a certain activity. If when you climbed you only needed grip strength, then the hand strengthener might help.

So, back to my original advice....THe best and most effective way for a BEGINNER to break into climbing and see the most improvement is to climb.

No hard feelings.

Josh


shockabuku


Aug 17, 2009, 2:58 PM
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LostinMaine wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:

Then you are agreeing with BAD advice. Muscles strengthen very quickly when compared to tendons. The best thing for a beginner to do is to just climb and focus on technique. Tendons can take months or even years to strengthen, and this is usually where beginners too eager to get strong and pull down hard, get injured.

Josh

I have known many climbers to get injured immediately climbing "hard" the first few times ever climbing. It is very stressful on the body to be exposed to heights, overusing their arms and not using their feet, trusting ropes, etc.

Someone using a hand strengthener can make great strides with climbing (going through PT helped me a lot with climbing). I see no reason not to recommend a hand trainer because there is fear that someone might try to climb too hard after using it.

People with overzealous and foolish personalities will always find a way to hurt themselves without any assistance.

That doesn't equate to recommending one. And no one, so far, who has a credible amount of experience is recommending one.


blkela


Aug 17, 2009, 3:31 PM
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So basically what you are saying is that the magazine "Rock & Ice" gives bad advise. Because that is where that came from. Then that would also mean that you are saying that some of the most experienced climbers are full of shit.
Interesting....


shockabuku


Aug 17, 2009, 3:34 PM
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blkela wrote:
So basically what you are saying is that the magazine "Rock & Ice" gives bad advise. Because that is where that came from.

Sometimes. Who doesn't?

blkela wrote:
Then that would also mean that you are saying that some of the most experienced climbers are full of shit.
Interesting....

Yep, some are. Who's "some of the most experienced climbers" that wrote that? And what did they say?

Ads (and articles) make money. People will say almost anything to make money.


LostinMaine


Aug 17, 2009, 3:46 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:

So, back to my original advice....THe best and most effective way for a BEGINNER to break into climbing and see the most improvement is to climb.

No hard feelings.

Josh

On this, I could not possibly agree more.

Also, I know you're a decent dude. I think we met, oh... maybe 5 or 6 years ago at the base of Maria... or perhaps it was before the film festival in New Paltz? Can't remember anymore. It was in my gunks.com days. You were a good guy (and I presume you still are!).


blkela


Aug 17, 2009, 4:00 PM
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I was just loosely quoting a beginners training regime for someone that said they have never climbed and was not in the best of shape. If you want to know which issue it was that said this it was the "How to Climb, The Complete Guide".
That said, I have NO intention of following their plan, mostly because I work on a drill rig which keeps me in fine shape when I'm not climbing.


(This post was edited by blkela on Aug 17, 2009, 4:01 PM)


blueeyedclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 4:27 PM
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LostinMaine wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:

So, back to my original advice....THe best and most effective way for a BEGINNER to break into climbing and see the most improvement is to climb.

No hard feelings.

Josh

On this, I could not possibly agree more.

Also, I know you're a decent dude. I think we met, oh... maybe 5 or 6 years ago at the base of Maria... or perhaps it was before the film festival in New Paltz? Can't remember anymore. It was in my gunks.com days. You were a good guy (and I presume you still are!).

I have met a lot of people over the years so it's very possible we've met. I am not very good with names, and i didn't see any pictures in your profile that were clear, so I'll just have to take your word for it.

Josh


dorienc


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Join the gym.
Take some lessons (so you actually start with some technique).
Climb.
Watch how the climbers slightly better than you do it. Don't bother trying to copy the really good ones, they make it all look easy.
Climb some more.
Lose some weight if you are fat old tub of goo like me.
Get friends who climb and climb with them. Talk climbing with them.
Don't live in the gym, climb outside (See above for lessons and friends).
The absolute best preparation for climbing is climbing.


shockabuku


Aug 17, 2009, 11:26 PM
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No biggie. I guess you rarely see training plans from new climbers (except on this siteCrazy).


curt


Aug 18, 2009, 12:05 AM
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Jazza11 wrote:
I hav'nt actually started climbing but i really want to their is a climbing gym just near me so thats a plus but i wanted to know about becoming fiter and pre-pairing for climbing as i am hardly health at all right now i was wondering if someone could give me some tips on how to increase my health and fitness specificaly for climbing like should i buy a new bike or get a exercise bike to improve my cartiovascular fitness??? any advise is welcome and much appreciated.

Study the English language. It will benefit you at least as much as any other advice offered in this thread.

Curt


ckirkwood9


Aug 18, 2009, 10:18 AM
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And no one, so far, who has a credible amount of experience is recommending one.

At the risk of opening myself up for to huge amount of criticism and personal attack: I've been climbing for 6-7 years, have visited many crags inside and outside the US (i think this gives me SOME credibility as a somewhat-experienced climber), and i think forearm trainers are worthwhile.

The Black Diamond forearm trainer (http://www.rei.com/product/496308) definitely helped my endurance when i first started climbing or when coming back from a long hiatus. ALSO after an injury, a physical therapist suggested i use one ~ so someone in the medical community deemed it worthwhile.

Unless you've tried it and seen how it affects your climbing, I don't think you can make an accurate judgment call on it's effectiveness.

Also, who can argue with the idea that stronger forearms will help with rock climbing. Just take a look at the typical climber build. Popeye forearms. ... Climbing builds stronger forearms because the body is adapting to the need for stronger forearms. Granted... stronger forearms won't make you a better CLIMBER... it'll just allow you to climb longer/harder as you're LEARNING to be a better climber.

Yes tendons take longer to strengthen than muscles, and yes a beginner can hurt themselves if they try to push it too soon, however, the OP wasn't asking if using a training device will help him/her send a 5.12 on his first day out. They were asking for advice on what to do to prepare for climbing. Stronger forearms will prepare a person for the strength/endurance needed for climbing.

If anyone thinks that being stronger won't help, then they're being silly.

Someone suggested that the OP save $$ and just climb; the black diamond forearm trainer costs somewhere around $6, is simple, portable, and gives ya something to do while you're driving to the crag with your 1000 dollars worth of trad gear. :)

Besides, if you get it and don't like it or if you find it doesn't help you, just give it to your dog, or 1 year old-nephew to chew on. :)
After washing, of course.

Having said that most will agree that the BEST thing to get better/stronger at climbing is to climb.


shockabuku


Aug 18, 2009, 11:35 AM
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Okay, your personal experience may have some validity. However, thinking that it probably does some good doesn't equate to it actually doing some good. You don't know what you don't know, so don't represent your opinion as fact.


(This post was edited by shockabuku on Aug 18, 2009, 11:36 AM)


ckirkwood9


Aug 18, 2009, 12:31 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
However, thinking that it probably does some good doesn't equate to it actually doing some good. You don't know what you don't know, so don't represent your opinion as fact.

i don't think i presented anything other than my opinion and personal experience and deduced an outcome based on that.

However, here are some facts to consider:

1) Exercising a muscle makes it stronger.
2) The previously mentioned product, if used properly, will help to create stronger forearm muscles.
3) Stronger forearm muscles will give a climber more endurance for climbing.
4) The more one climbs, the more likely they are to become a stronger/better climber.

Therefor by simple logic, a forearm trainer, if used properly, will give a climber more endurance which will allow them to climb more, and ultimately COULD help them to become a stronger/better climber.

Do you suggest that forearm strength will NOT help a climber?


csproul


Aug 18, 2009, 12:41 PM
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It is likely not as simple as you make it out to be. What exactly do you mean when you say "forearm muscle"? There are several different muscles and each are worked differently when pulling on different shaped holds and in differing directions. Which is limiting to your climbing? Which muscle do these devices work, and are they really making it stronger or are they increasing endurance? Is a "stronger" muscle really more likely to give better endurance? I don't know the answer to these questions, but I am reasonably sure that you are greatly oversimplifying things.


shockabuku


Aug 18, 2009, 12:45 PM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
However, thinking that it probably does some good doesn't equate to it actually doing some good. You don't know what you don't know, so don't represent your opinion as fact.

i don't think i presented anything other than my opinion and personal experience and deduced an outcome based on that.

However, here are some facts to consider:

1) Exercising a muscle makes it stronger.
2) The previously mentioned product, if used properly, will help to create stronger forearm muscles.
3) Stronger forearm muscles will give a climber more endurance for climbing.
4) The more one climbs, the more likely they are to become a stronger/better climber.

Therefor by simple logic, a forearm trainer, if used properly, will give a climber more endurance which will allow them to climb more, and ultimately COULD help them to become a stronger/better climber.

Do you suggest that forearm strength will NOT help a climber?

Like you, I assume it will, but I really don't know for sure.


welle


Aug 18, 2009, 1:20 PM
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acorneau wrote:
Jazza11 wrote:
I hav'nt actually started climbing but i really want to their is a climbing gym just near me so thats a plus but i wanted to know about becoming fiter and pre-pairing for climbing as i am hardly health at all right now i was wondering if someone could give me some tips on how to increase my health and fitness specificaly for climbing like should i buy a new bike or get a exercise bike to improve my cartiovascular fitness??? any advise is welcome and much appreciated.


Quoted for complete lack of sentence structure, punctuation, and spelling!!!
CrazyShockedWink

troll?


ckirkwood9


Aug 19, 2009, 2:11 PM
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In reply to:
It is likely not as simple as you make it out to be. What exactly do you mean when you say "forearm muscle"?

I was originally referring to the forearm flexors. the BD forearm trainer is good for conditioning these specific forearm muscles used for grip strength.

There is also a good training device made by theraband called a Flex Bar that can be used for both flexor AND extensor muscles.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ANL5H8/ref=asc_df_B001ANL5H8885009?smid=A3FTKNZ9RHYKG2&tag=shopzilla_mp_1023-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B001ANL5H8

it's a good idea to train both because an imbalance in your flexor/extensor development can give you elbow tendonitis.

ask any doctor or physical therapist about climbing-related elbow injuries and why they happen ~ and what they prescribe AFTER an injury occurs and why. (other than 'stop-climbing' that is)

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 19, 2009, 2:28 PM)


ckirkwood9


Aug 19, 2009, 2:27 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that forearm strength will NOT help a climber?

Like you, I assume it will, but I really don't know for sure.

REALLY????

Are you willing to go out on a limb and say that lat strength will help a swimmer or that quad strength help a runner?

OR sticking to this climbing discussion... Will stronger abs help a climber?

If we following your logic... strength-training your abs will not help you as a climber.

Do you need a study to prove to you that stronger muscles will help an individual pursuing a sport where those exact muscles are employed in its pursuit?

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 19, 2009, 2:30 PM)


shockabuku


Aug 19, 2009, 8:19 PM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that forearm strength will NOT help a climber?

Like you, I assume it will, but I really don't know for sure.

REALLY????

Are you willing to go out on a limb and say that lat strength will help a swimmer or that quad strength help a runner?

OR sticking to this climbing discussion... Will stronger abs help a climber?

If we following your logic... strength-training your abs will not help you as a climber.

Do you need a study to prove to you that stronger muscles will help an individual pursuing a sport where those exact muscles are employed in its pursuit?

You apparently missed the point.


csproul


Aug 20, 2009, 7:05 AM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that forearm strength will NOT help a climber?

Like you, I assume it will, but I really don't know for sure.

REALLY????

Are you willing to go out on a limb and say that lat strength will help a swimmer or that quad strength help a runner?

OR sticking to this climbing discussion... Will stronger abs help a climber?

If we following your logic... strength-training your abs will not help you as a climber.

Do you need a study to prove to you that stronger muscles will help an individual pursuing a sport where those exact muscles are employed in its pursuit?
You really have missed the point. The bolded potion is mine. It is arguable whether those exercises do in fact train the exact muscles, or even if they do, that they do so in a manner that is beneficial. There is lots of anecdotal information that this or that weight training/pullups/forearm exerciser...will help your climbing and very little real evidence that it is true. As far as your example, I can tell you flat out that it is misleading. I was once a competitive cyclist at a very high level. I can tell you with complete certainty that all the leg lifting in the world isn't going to make you a faster cyclist (with the exception of some track cycling and maybe sprinters). Strength training in that context mostly needs to be done using the exact same motion as the exercise...i.e. pedaling! Weights maybe useful for correcting muscle imbalance and preventing injury, but it is going to do little to make you faster. I would be willing to bet the same is true for runners. The time spent making the muscle stronger by lifting is almost certainly better spent training the specific motion (running, swimming, riding...). And these are very simple repetitive motions when compared to climbing. Climbing involves a much more complex range of motions, and I doubt very much that exercising a muscle in such a repetitive fashion (a forearm trainer) would be all that beneficial. You will be hard pressed to find many people that climb at a high level who would advocate training with a forearm trainer or pullups etc...I think that this holds even more true for a beginner. Look at any of the threads on this site for "pullups and climbing" and you will see several knowledgeable trainers and climbers who have concluded that they provide little benefit, especially if they take time away from better training methods. I wouldn't think a forearm trainer is much different, especially for a beginner. I'm not an expert in physiology or training for that matter, so I'll leave further responses to those that are, but all I'm saying is that I think you are vastly oversimplifying things and possibly giving questionable advice to beginning climbers.


vertical_planar


Aug 20, 2009, 7:27 AM
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Jast go klimbing


Partner camhead


Aug 20, 2009, 8:02 AM
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lrossi wrote:
Jazza11 wrote:
I hav'nt actually started climbing but i really want to their is a climbing gym just near me so thats a plus but i wanted to know about becoming fiter and pre-pairing for climbing as i am hardly health at all right now i was wondering if someone could give me some tips on how to increase my health and fitness specificaly for climbing like should i buy a new bike or get a exercise bike to improve my cartiovascular fitness??? any advise is welcome and much appreciated.

Start with sentences. Eventually you can move up to paragraphs.

Good advice, but take it slow. People with your writing ability who attempt to immediately form paragraphs often really injure themselves; tearing tendons, or maybe even ripping a rotator cuff.


ckirkwood9


Aug 20, 2009, 10:25 AM
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In reply to:
You will be hard pressed to find many people that climb at a high level who would advocate training with a forearm trainer or pullups etc...I think that this holds even more true for a beginner.

It is YOU who is missing the point. The OP's question was "I'm a beginner, what can i do to get ready for climbing" and you keep talking about professionals and hard-core climbers.

The person is a BEGINNER, probably with little grip strength (as opposed to those i originally referred to such as manual laborers or cyclists who already have some grip strength from their activities)

Those with little grip strength will most certainly benefit from strength-training for grip strength by ...you guessed it...gripping. Using the device I mentioned will allow a new climber (or an injured climber working to get his/her strength/endurance back) to work his grip strength to failure via high reps.

Moving forward: from an interview with dainiel woods - professional climber

http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/General/Daniel_Woods_Professional_Climber_with_no_limits__858.html

Daniel: The most challenging thing about training is motivation.

All I want to do is climb but I recognize that some things cannot be done unless I get stronger or have more experience. I used to do the typical training such as pull ups, push ups, ab workouts, 1 arm hangs and pull ups etc. but it got too boring. Now I feel the best method is to climb as much as possible and travel to new areas with new stone. Your psyche is maintained and you gain more experience.
• he says that the BEST METHOD is to climb as much as possible (which i agreed to)
• he also says that he used to do other training methods "pull ups, push ups, ab workouts, 1 arm hangs" but it got boring.
• He didn't say that it didn't help his climbing.


Eric Horst states in 'how to climb 5.12'

an old adage that "climbing is the best training for climbing" and many climbers use this line as an excuse for not engaging in any supplemental training activities. Let's examine this precept and determine, once and for all, if it is valid.

When I am asked the question "Is climbing the best training for climbing?", my canned answer is "it depends."
There are two sides of the training-for-climbing coin to consider:
1. in terms of improving climbing technique and mental skills, "climbing as training" is the only way to go,
2. developing high levels of sport-specific strength (i.e. grip strength, lock-off ability, upper-body power and such) demands supplement targeted training outside of just sending at the crags.

Here's why.

The goals and course of effective action of "climbing" versus "training" are very different. For instance, the goal in climbing is to avoid muscular failure at all costs and, hopefully, reach the top of a boulder problem or climb. Conversely, effective training for climbing demands a stimulus of sufficient intensity to produce muscular failure in a few minutes (when training anaerobic endurance) and a few seconds (when training maximum strength and power).
Summarizing--in climbing, you strive to avoid failure; in training, you need to pursue failure.

Another example that underscores the difference between climbing and training for climbing is the way in which you grip the rock. In climbing, the rock dictates a random use of many different grip positions and, at times, you may even deliberately vary the way you grip the rock. As a result, it's unlikely that any single grip position will ever get worked maximally and, therefore, the individual grip positions (e.g. crimp, open hand, pinch, etc.) are slow to increase strength. This should help you understand why a full season of climbing may indeed improve your local forearm endurance, but do little to increase you absolute maximum grip strength. Therefore, varying grip positions is a great strategy for maximizing endurance when climbing for performance, but it stinks for training maximum grip strength.

Effective finger strength training demands you target a specific grip position and work it until failure.

As a final note, it may be best for some climbers to engage in physical conditioning that is not sport-specific in nature. For example, an overweight individual is better off spending some time performing aerobic exercise (and, of course, improve their dietary surveillance) rather than supplemental sport-specific climbing exercises. Likewise, someone lacking even modest "base strength" (i.e. unable to do even a few pull-ups, push-ups, abdominal crunches, etc.) is wise to engage in a period of standard circuit training to improve general conditioning.

In the final analysis, if you are serious about climbing performance you must not be satisfied simply "climbing for training", nor can you mindlessly adhere to old adages or train in the flawed ways as most other climbers do.


csproul


Aug 20, 2009, 11:25 AM
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First of all, I'm not reading all that! Second, you just made my point. We are talking about a beginning climber here, and what they can do to "pre-pair" for climbing (if you can extract what the OP was trying to say at all!). Would you tell a person who is getting into swimming to start doing some weight training to prepare for this new activity? Would you tell a person who is starting to run to begin by strengthening their legs through weight training? Of course not! Then you've got 10 paragraphs about how non-sport specific training may be helpful to attaining training goals "if you are serious about climbing performance" (i.e. goals that are beyond a beginning climber!). Even if that is true, we are talking about a beginning climber here! From your own text (or is it Eric Horst's?)
In reply to:
Eric Horst states in 'how to climb 5.12'

an old adage that "climbing is the best training for climbing" and many climbers use this line as an excuse for not engaging in any supplemental training activities. Let's examine this precept and determine, once and for all, if it is valid.

When I am asked the question "Is climbing the best training for climbing?", my canned answer is "it depends."
There are two sides of the training-for-climbing coin to consider:
1. in terms of improving climbing technique and mental skills, "climbing as training" is the only way to go,
2. developing high levels of sport-specific strength (i.e. grip strength, lock-off ability, upper-body power and such) demands supplement targeted training outside of just sending at the crags.
which one (1 or 2) would you say better describes the needs of a beginning climber?!


shockabuku


Aug 20, 2009, 11:45 AM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
In reply to:
You will be hard pressed to find many people that climb at a high level who would advocate training with a forearm trainer or pullups etc...I think that this holds even more true for a beginner.

It is YOU who is missing the point. The OP's question was "I'm a beginner, what can i do to get ready for climbing" and you keep talking about professionals and hard-core climbers.

The person is a BEGINNER, probably with little grip strength (as opposed to those i originally referred to such as manual laborers or cyclists who already have some grip strength from their activities)

Those with little grip strength will most certainly benefit from strength-training for grip strength by ...you guessed it...gripping. Using the device I mentioned will allow a new climber (or an injured climber working to get his/her strength/endurance back) to work his grip strength to failure via high reps.

Moving forward: from an interview with dainiel woods - professional climber

http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/General/Daniel_Woods_Professional_Climber_with_no_limits__858.html

Daniel: The most challenging thing about training is motivation.

All I want to do is climb but I recognize that some things cannot be done unless I get stronger or have more experience. I used to do the typical training such as pull ups, push ups, ab workouts, 1 arm hangs and pull ups etc. but it got too boring. Now I feel the best method is to climb as much as possible and travel to new areas with new stone. Your psyche is maintained and you gain more experience.
• he says that the BEST METHOD is to climb as much as possible (which i agreed to)
• he also says that he used to do other training methods "pull ups, push ups, ab workouts, 1 arm hangs" but it got boring.
• He didn't say that it didn't help his climbing.


Eric Horst states in 'how to climb 5.12'

an old adage that "climbing is the best training for climbing" and many climbers use this line as an excuse for not engaging in any supplemental training activities. Let's examine this precept and determine, once and for all, if it is valid.

When I am asked the question "Is climbing the best training for climbing?", my canned answer is "it depends."
There are two sides of the training-for-climbing coin to consider:
1. in terms of improving climbing technique and mental skills, "climbing as training" is the only way to go,
2. developing high levels of sport-specific strength (i.e. grip strength, lock-off ability, upper-body power and such) demands supplement targeted training outside of just sending at the crags.

Here's why.

The goals and course of effective action of "climbing" versus "training" are very different. For instance, the goal in climbing is to avoid muscular failure at all costs and, hopefully, reach the top of a boulder problem or climb. Conversely, effective training for climbing demands a stimulus of sufficient intensity to produce muscular failure in a few minutes (when training anaerobic endurance) and a few seconds (when training maximum strength and power).
Summarizing--in climbing, you strive to avoid failure; in training, you need to pursue failure.

Another example that underscores the difference between climbing and training for climbing is the way in which you grip the rock. In climbing, the rock dictates a random use of many different grip positions and, at times, you may even deliberately vary the way you grip the rock. As a result, it's unlikely that any single grip position will ever get worked maximally and, therefore, the individual grip positions (e.g. crimp, open hand, pinch, etc.) are slow to increase strength. This should help you understand why a full season of climbing may indeed improve your local forearm endurance, but do little to increase you absolute maximum grip strength. Therefore, varying grip positions is a great strategy for maximizing endurance when climbing for performance, but it stinks for training maximum grip strength.

Effective finger strength training demands you target a specific grip position and work it until failure.

As a final note, it may be best for some climbers to engage in physical conditioning that is not sport-specific in nature. For example, an overweight individual is better off spending some time performing aerobic exercise (and, of course, improve their dietary surveillance) rather than supplemental sport-specific climbing exercises. Likewise, someone lacking even modest "base strength" (i.e. unable to do even a few pull-ups, push-ups, abdominal crunches, etc.) is wise to engage in a period of standard circuit training to improve general conditioning.

In the final analysis, if you are serious about climbing performance you must not be satisfied simply "climbing for training", nor can you mindlessly adhere to old adages or train in the flawed ways as most other climbers do.

Maybe you could highlight the part where it says a forearm trainer will help you become a better climber?


bobbj22


Aug 20, 2009, 1:29 PM
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Hand exerciser will contribute slightly to climbing compared to doing nothing at all. Climbing will contribute greatly compared to using a hand exerciser. With that said I own one. It's for my road rage though -I just had to upgrade to 60 lbs since my 50 lb. is taking too long to get a pump (I hate crappy drivers). Everyone should have to retake a driver's exam every 25 years. Can't budge me on that one.

Anyways, go climb and stop worrying. You'll do fine. If not, work at it. Dedication leads to higher satisfaction.


zchandran


Aug 20, 2009, 1:41 PM
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csproul wrote:
First of all, I'm not reading all that! Second, you just made my point. We are talking about a beginning climber here, and what they can do to "pre-pair" for climbing (if you can extract what the OP was trying to say at all!). Would you tell a person who is getting into swimming to start doing some weight training to prepare for this new activity?

I'm at about the one year mark climbing, so let me chime in here with a beginner's viewpoint.

As a beginner, it SEEMS as if grip strength is what is holding you back. But it is completely useless to work on grip strength, because that's where you make the slowest improvements. There shouldn't be anything on a route this side of 5.11 that requires great grip. If anything, it would be more useful to do calf raises so that you can stand comfortably on your big toes.

My biggest breakthrough as a beginner was in realizing that if I ever thought "I don't have the grip strength to make this move", the sentence I should be thinking immediately after is "I'm doing this wrong, forget the hands, what should my feet be doing here?" Once I purged grip strength from my thinking, it opened the way for focusing on balance and kinesthetics.


mitchy


Aug 21, 2009, 6:33 AM
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my forearm trainer is to the left of my right front pocketWink


bobbj22


Aug 21, 2009, 6:46 AM
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forearm trainer...not to be mistaken with third arm trainer


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 7:06 AM
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In reply to:
There shouldn't be anything on a route this side of 5.11 that requires great grip.

Have you ever tried doing a traverse across the under-side of a roof or a sustained overhang?

my gym has quite a few very pumpy overhangs and roofs in the 5.9s and 5.10 range that require a fair amount of grip strength and lot of endurance (as well as good technique):



the pump you get climbing the red or yellow wall in the photo will quickly change your opinion.

And a trip up to the Gunks to get on the sharp-end of any number of sub-5.11 pumpy routes will also have you wishing for JUUUSSSST a LITTLE more endurance as you scramble to shove a tiny stopper into a crack.


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 7:44 AM
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csproul wrote:
Would you tell a person who is getting into swimming to start doing some weight training to prepare for this new activity? Would you tell a person who is starting to run to begin by strengthening their legs through weight training? Of course not!

Your examples are as bad as your logic.

Swimming is a very low-stress workout, so no... it wouldn't make sense to tell a new swimmer to prepare with weight training (though it would probably help them acclimate faster to the sport if they did).

Climbing creates a LOT of stress on the hands and forearms of a new climber and having some initial training of these muscles will most certainly reduce the impact of that stress.

As for your running example: while most may not suggest a person start weight training to begin a running program, it would HELP they if they had some initial conditioning. ALSO it's always a good idea for one to warm up before running. The BD ring could be used for warming up before a day of climbing.


In reply to:
In reply to:
1. in terms of improving climbing technique and mental skills, "climbing as training" is the only way to go,
2. developing high levels of sport-specific strength (i.e. grip strength, lock-off ability, upper-body power and such) demands supplement targeted training outside of just sending at the crags.
which one (1 or 2) would you say better describes the needs of a beginning climber?!


A beginner climber will need BOTH 1 AND 2. They'll need the 'mental skills' that will slowly develop from climbing AND sport-specific strength which will also be developed from climbing but would be helped along by 'supplement targeted training'.

I never suggested that the new climber use a forearm trainer INSTEAD of climbing. I suggested it's use in ADDITION to climbing... and that they could just carry it around with them mindlessly squeezing it throughout the day.


csproul


Aug 21, 2009, 7:55 AM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
csproul wrote:
Would you tell a person who is getting into swimming to start doing some weight training to prepare for this new activity? Would you tell a person who is starting to run to begin by strengthening their legs through weight training? Of course not!

Your examples are as bad as your logic.

Swimming is a very low-stress workout, so no... it wouldn't make sense to tell a new swimmer to prepare with weight training (though it would probably help them acclimate faster to the sport if they did).

Climbing creates a LOT of stress on the hands and forearms of a new climber and having some initial training of these muscles will most certainly reduce the impact of that stress.

As for your running example: while most may not suggest a person start weight training to begin a running program, it would HELP they if they had some initial conditioning. ALSO it's always a good idea for one to warm up before running. The BD ring could be used for warming up before a day of climbing.


In reply to:
In reply to:
1. in terms of improving climbing technique and mental skills, "climbing as training" is the only way to go,
2. developing high levels of sport-specific strength (i.e. grip strength, lock-off ability, upper-body power and such) demands supplement targeted training outside of just sending at the crags.
which one (1 or 2) would you say better describes the needs of a beginning climber?!


A beginner climber will need BOTH 1 AND 2. They'll need the 'mental skills' that will slowly develop from climbing AND sport-specific strength which will also be developed from climbing but would be helped along by 'supplement targeted training'.

I never suggested that the new climber use a forearm trainer INSTEAD of climbing. I suggested it's use in ADDITION to climbing... and that they could just carry it around with them mindlessly squeezing it throughout the day.
Holy shit, are you a dumbass. They were your examples, not mine. Good idea, let's take beginners who are already prone to overuse injuries and suggest that they take on additional stresses to the hands and forearms. That would be much better than focusing on building technique that might actually help alleviate some of those stresses. I'm done with arguing. You can play fake-coach to all the beginning climbers you want, but can you find me one credible source of (climbing) coaching that suggests that a beginning climber would benefit from using a forearm trainer (and we're not talking about "warming up" here either)? I doubt it.


(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 21, 2009, 7:58 AM)


zchandran


Aug 21, 2009, 8:03 AM
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
In reply to:
There shouldn't be anything on a route this side of 5.11 that requires great grip.

Have you ever tried doing a traverse across the under-side of a roof or a sustained overhang?

my gym has quite a few very pumpy overhangs and roofs in the 5.9s and 5.10 range that require a fair amount of grip strength and lot of endurance (as well as good technique):

[image]http://www.govertical.com/images/gallery/gym3.jpg[/image]

the pump you get climbing the red or yellow wall in the photo will quickly change your opinion.

And a trip up to the Gunks to get on the sharp-end of any number of sub-5.11 pumpy routes will also have you wishing for JUUUSSSST a LITTLE more endurance as you scramble to shove a tiny stopper into a crack.

On the traverses and overhung routes such as in your picture, I get a lot more bang for my buck from efficient footwork, as opposed to a stronger grip. As a beginner, being able to push correctly from my feet and keep my hips in to the wall by flagging and turning are much more important than maintaining an iron grip on the holds. And if I'm peeling off because I needed a bit more endurance, I go back and look at the route and see what I could do different to put less weight on my hands. There's always something.

At some point, I'll need to work on my grip - I'm not arguing that. But the more I climb, the more I realize how lacking my footwork and balance are, so that's where I put the effort in.

As I've said, I'm a beginner, so I'm just going by my personal experience. I bought one of those spring loaded hand trainers from REI my first month of climbing, it's been sitting in a drawer untouched for the last 8 months or so.


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 8:40 AM
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csproul wrote:
Holy shit, are you a dumbass. They were your examples, not mine.

Nooooo.... it is you who are the dumb ass. MY QUESTION was this:

"Are you willing to go out on a limb and say that lat strength will help a swimmer or that quad strength help a runner?"

your EXAMPLE questioned if it would be a good recommendation to suggest weight training to swimmers and runners.

I never suggested "weight training" for swimmers, runners OR climbers for that matter. I simply stated that STRONGER sport specific muscles will help with the sport that employs those muscles.

Go back to grad school and demand your money back... they've failed you.

In reply to:
Good idea, let's take beginners who are already prone to overuse injuries and suggest that they take on additional stresses to the hands and forearms.

That is why i stressed PROPER USE of the training device to build strength in PREPARATION for climbing, when returning from an injury (as suppored by a physical therapist), or as a warm up. By doing so a new climber's hands/forearms would be more apt to handle the stresses placed upon them by climbing.

In reply to:
That would be much better than focusing on building technique that might actually help alleviate some of those stresses.

More proof that you have not followed this discussion. I didn't suggest using a training aid instead of climbing. You seem unable to grasp this concept...

In reply to:
I'm done with arguing.

that's good... because you're bad at it.

In reply to:
You can play fake-coach to all the beginning climbers you want, but can you find me one credible source of (climbing) coaching that suggests that a beginning climber would benefit from using a forearm trainer (and we're not talking about "warming up" here either)? I doubt it.

I provided you 2.

Though I suppose you COULD question the credibility of
La Sportiva-sponsored athlete: Daniel Woods
and Eric Horst: the author of a book that
Lynn Hill calls "Well researched and right on."


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 8:46 AM
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In reply to:
but can you find me one credible source of (climbing) coaching that suggests that a beginning climber would benefit from using a forearm trainer (and we're not talking about "warming up" here either)? I doubt it.

how's this for credible:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brandi Proffitt. Brandi's a professional climber, international routesetter, Certified Personal Trainer and Nationally Accredited US Climbing Coach endorses a forearm trainer and says this:

Isometric tension of all the forearm exercises increases grip strength, reduces stress, tones and sculpts targeted muscles, reduces the onset of arm pump when used as a stretching aid prior to activity and reduces discomfort caused by repetitive motion disorders.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a quote from a professional that emphasizes the importance of developing strong forearms for rock climbing.

”First, strong fingers are every climber's dream. And since the fingers don't have muscles, it's the sinew connections in the forearms (and the attending muscles) that must be strengthened.”
- How to Rock Climb-A Falcon Guide; 3rd ed.- John Long

----------------------------------------------------------------------

from livestrong.com: Dr. Amy Collins

The muscles in the forearm connect from the elbow to the wrist, controlling motion in your elbow, wrist, hand and fingers. One or more muscles may be involved in a particular activity. Strengthening the affected muscles is an important part of tendinitis rehab. A change in your workout can allow you to strengthen around the inflamed muscles without aggravating them. Change your routine regularly to balance the stresses placed upon the muscles.

Would you like more?

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 21, 2009, 8:56 AM)


csproul


Aug 21, 2009, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
I never suggested "weight training" for swimmers, runners OR climbers for that matter. I simply stated that STRONGER sport specific muscles will help with the sport that employs those muscles.
I guess I assumed you meant activity other than the specific sport since you were using these examples to support the use of a forearm trainer. Silly me. If not talking about the specific sport (swimming, running, climbing) to gain "stronger sport-specific muscles", then I can only assume you mean using some other means, i.e. weight lifting in this example. I'm all ears if you had something else in mind that does not include the sport itself.
In reply to:
Go back to grad school and demand your money back... they've failed you
Well, I'm still in it, so maybe there's still hope.
In reply to:
That is why i stressed PROPER USE of the training device to build strength in PREPARATION for climbing, when returning from an injury (as suppored by a physical therapist), or as a warm up. By doing so a new climber's hands/forearms would be more apt to handle the stresses placed upon them by climbing.
No you weren't, you were arguing that a forearm trainer would be beneficial to a new climber to help them prepare for climbing. Not for PT, not as a warm-up routine.
In reply to:
I provided you 2.

Though I suppose you COULD question the credibility of
La Sportiva-sponsored athlete: Daniel Woods
and Eric Horst: the author of a book that
Lynn Hill calls "Well researched and right on."
Again, these may be fine examples for a training climber, but not appropriate for someone who has just started out climbing. And I still don't remember seeing anything in those sources specifically about a forearm trainer, only regarding other non sport-specific training. I could be wrong there since I have not gone back to re-read Horst's book.
In reply to:
how's this for credible:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brandi Proffitt. Brandi's a professional climber, international routesetter, Certified Personal Trainer and Nationally Accredited US Climbing Coach endorses a forearm trainer and says this:

Isometric tension of all the forearm exercises increases grip strength, reduces stress, tones and sculpts targeted muscles, reduces the onset of arm pump when used as a stretching aid prior to activity and reduces discomfort caused by repetitive motion disorders
If you're going to quote a source, at least get the source right. This quote is from a website for a training product, the Gripstick (http://www.articlesbase.com/...benefits-350275.html or here http://www.gripstik.com/...aining_benefits.html) not a quote from Brandi Proffitt. Here is what she had to say, "'I'd like to say that not only has the use of the Grip Stik improved my overall forearm fitness, it has significantly countered the development of elbow injuries which I was beginning to experience as a result of forearm muscle imbalance. Using the Grip Stik on a regular basis has helped to balance my strength and improve my competitive performance as a professional rock climber like no other exercise or therapy I've tried. Since I started using GripStik as part of my regular rock climbing training regimen, I have been free of elbow problems, have experienced a reduced onset of fore arm pump while climbing, and have ranked in the top ten in the female US national standings in my sport two years in a row. Thank you so much for your support and for a wonderful product. I recommend it to anyone who wants to improve forearm strength, flexibility, endurance, and overall balance.'".

Again, maybe appropriate for a trained climber to counteract "forearm muscle imbalance", but not something a beginning climber should have trouble with yet. So I could believe that such training may help prevent injury and allow you to continue training, but this is still not an issue for a new climber.

In reply to:
Here is a quote from a professional that emphasizes the importance of developing strong forearms for rock climbing.

”First, strong fingers are every climber's dream. And since the fingers don't have muscles, it's the sinew connections in the forearms (and the attending muscles) that must be strengthened.”
- How to Rock Climb-A Falcon Guide; 3rd ed.- John Long

----------------------------------------------------------------------

from livestrong.com: Dr. Amy Collins

The muscles in the forearm connect from the elbow to the wrist, controlling motion in your elbow, wrist, hand and fingers. One or more muscles may be involved in a particular activity. Strengthening the affected muscles is an important part of tendinitis rehab. A change in your workout can allow you to strengthen around the inflamed muscles without aggravating them. Change your routine regularly to balance the stresses placed upon the muscles.

Would you like more?
As for these ridiculous examples, one is talking about rehab and about strengthening opposing muscles without aggravating inflamed muscles (still no mention of a forearm trainer). Not a problem a beginning climber should have. The other is stating the obvious. Of course we'd all like stronger fingers, although I doubt that it is anywhere near the limiting factor for most climbers. The questions are 1)is a forearm trainer the best way to achieve this (debatable) and 2)if it is, is it appropriate for for a beginning climber (not addressed at all by John Long's quote). Off to NRG now, enjoy your weekend.


(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 21, 2009, 9:50 AM)


amyas


Aug 21, 2009, 9:52 AM
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chirkwood sounds like about the most reasonable, intellegent person i've seen post on the site. but it seems like the cool thing to do is attack that type of person so we dont need put up with reason or logic. i'm getting that sex change now.


shockabuku


Aug 21, 2009, 10:30 AM
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amyas wrote:
chirkwood sounds like about the most reasonable, intellegent person i've seen post on the site. but it seems like the cool thing to do is attack that type of person so we dont need put up with reason or logic. i'm getting that sex change now.

He does, doesn't he? Unfortunately that doesn't mean he's right (or wrong).


(This post was edited by shockabuku on Aug 21, 2009, 10:30 AM)


bobbj22


Aug 21, 2009, 10:44 AM
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In reply to:
i'm getting that sex change now.

At least you have an excuse to buy new gender specific climbing stuff.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 21, 2009, 11:06 AM
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amyas wrote:
chirkwood sounds like about the most reasonable, intellegent person i've seen post on the site. but it seems like the cool thing to do is attack that type of person so we dont need put up with reason or logic. i'm getting that sex change now.

It doesn't take reason or intelligence to google something and provide a quote. Unfortunately, the quotes provide do not address the topic, which is whether a grip trainer will help a brand new climber.

It was mentioned that there are no muscles in the fingers, only tendons. This is correct. Without additional strength exercises, the forearm muscles will develop at a faster rate then the finger tendons. What happens when you accerlerate the development of the muscles pulling on the tendons without allowing the tendons ample time to catch up?

Sounds like a recipe for injury to me.

Josh


ckirkwood9


Aug 21, 2009, 12:35 PM
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In reply to:
It doesn't take reason or intelligence to google something and provide a quote. Unfortunately, the quotes provide do not address the topic, which is whether a grip trainer will help a brand new climber.

But it does take a margin of intelligence to create a logical argument. Providing quotes found on the internet is only a means to support my position. Assuming the sources are credible.

I have done that, then my sources were called not credible.

Once I provided credibility, they were then dismissed or ignored. BUT that's how an illogical person argues: Sans logic.

If we can agree that using a grip strength and/or forearm trainer will increase strength in one's forearms, then the quotes certainly DO address the topic.

If you DON'T think that the forearm trainer i mentioned will increase strength in one's forearms, well then the topic HASN'T been addressed. if you think that using the device i SPECIFICALLY mentioned WON'T increase the strength of climbing-specific muscles, then I again say.. you're being silly.

With the BD device, you're gripping with resistance. That will build up the muscles that one uses to grip while climbing. (fingers/thumbs/forearm flexors) and to further this... using the other device i mentioned - therabar - can be used to strengthen the forearm extensors.

Will having a stronger grip and more grip endurance make a climber better? No... not by itself.

Where it will help them is by allowing them to have LONGER climbing sessions. Which means they can spend MORE TIME climbing... which means MORE TIME to learn the finesse of climbing and develop the skills (and overall muscle/tendon strength) necessary to become a better climber.

This whole discussion was born of that thought. Will using a BD ring strengthen climbing-specific muscles... and will stronger climbing-specific muscles help a new climber.

shockabuku said: Maybe you could highlight the part where it says a forearm trainer will help you become a better climber?

re-read my above and you'll have your answer.

If you can recall your days as a newbie... you'll remember that you could only climb a few routes before you were too pumped out to go on, as a more seasoned climber that is no longer an issue.

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 21, 2009, 12:37 PM)


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