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Knyte260
Nov 9, 2009, 6:54 AM
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I have a question for some of the more experienced trad leaders on this board. I have been leading trad as often as possible in the last 6 months and have climbed on the lead end around 8000 feet in total. I have yet to take my first fall of any sort, and am curious if this is a normal experience.
My expectations were far different, I guess from watching too many DVDs and such, I just figured falling was going to be a regular occurrence on a long route.
I have been leading in the 5.6 to 5.8 range, and have been having a great time on all the routes. Is staying at a difficulty level where I am quite unlikely to fall a good general strategy? I'd like to know other trad leaders opinions on this. I lead 5.11 in the gym but it is an environment where the risks are minimized.
I'm also curious to see what the average result is on a "typical" lead fall. I know this is a ridiculous question because all circumstances can be different, but maybe some of you have interesting stories to tell about some of your most memorable slip ups.
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evanwish
Nov 9, 2009, 8:09 AM
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i pretty much only lead, and its usually in the 5.6-5.10c range, I'm not too much of a fan of falling so i haven't fallen much, i think in my tens of thousands of accumulated vertical feet, probably only 3 or 4 falls.
yeah thats not really pushing myself, but i had a BAD fall a few years ago that destroyed my ankle so I kinda go by the motto of "leader must not fall" which actually works great for my two favorite types of climbing: Alpine Climbing, and Offwidth climbing where falling usually does not end up pretty 
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shimanilami
Nov 9, 2009, 8:25 AM
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My first rock climbs were alpine climbs - i.e. 5.6-5.8 range, low angle, remote locations, etc. I put in a lot of miles, took on gear when I needed a rest, and learned how to avoid falling. Of course, I wasn't pushing myself to my limits. I wasn't at that point yet, and I was typically in places where injuries could have been a real problem.
I didn't take any real falls until I started trad cragging and sport climbing. My very first trad falls were planned (Surrealistic Pillar Direct) where I could set bomber gear and take a very safe fall. Seeing how gear performed in controlled falls helped me to gain some trust in it. I still avoided falling on gear, though, and would take if I doubted I could pull a move.
It wasn't until I started aid climbing that I gained complete trust in my gear. Relying upon gear continuously, taking huge falls, and having partners who would do the same allowed me to "turn the corner" with falling on gear. Now, falling isn't a big deal to me, whether on bolts or gear. (Ice is a different matter entirely.)
You've only been leading trad for six months, and you're climbing relatively easy stuff. I'd suggest you continue with the "leader does not fall" approach for a while longer. When you feel like you need to get comfortable with falling in order to take yourself to the next level, then there a many resources (e.g. the Search function here) that can suggest safe ways of going about it.
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havard
Nov 9, 2009, 9:09 AM
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Many say "the leader must not fall" when talking trad. This is the smart, and safe approach. And when you're starting off, that is the right approach. You need to get your placement skills dialed, and then you can start pushing the grades. And when pushing the grades, falls will occure.
I've been told, or read, I don't remember, that there are three skills in trad climbing. It's the mental aspect, the gear placement, and the physical climbing. Only one aspect should be pushed at the time. I think that is a good advice.
When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die.
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currupt4130
Nov 9, 2009, 12:46 PM
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I've been climbing on gear for about a year now, climbing on a rope period for less than two years I guess. Feels like it's been longer than that.
I try not to fall on my gear. I've taken good falls on it but it's not my favorite thing to do. I do have total confidence in my gear though. In the past year I've probably taken ten or fifteen "falls" on my gear, ranging from a measly five feet to the average 15-20 foot fall.
I was climbing a mixed route yesterday and was talking to my partner about my aliens. He had never seen them and asked about them. I basically told him that trusting my aliens was a huge choice after all the goings on with CCH. I said "It's about as big of a choice as choosing to suck dick." He thought it was funny. I didn't send.
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angry
Nov 9, 2009, 12:52 PM
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You shouldn't fall on 5.6- to 5.8 anyway, you'll hurt yourself.
When things get steeper and harder, assuming that the gear is good and you won't smack stuff on the way down, it is as safe as sport to fall.
That said, hundreds of falls. None of them bad enough to do more than make me a little slow for a few days.
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johnwesely
Nov 9, 2009, 12:58 PM
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Around 8, I am not really sure.
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king_rat
Nov 9, 2009, 1:04 PM
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Hi, I have been climbing on and off for around 15 years, so I could not tell you exactly how many falls I have taken, but I probably take one or two small falls(like under 10 foot) a week. anything longer then that is a rarity.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the leader must never fall, half the fun of climbing for me is to push myself, and it is inevitable that if I am pushing myself I will fall at some point. I do believe that it is important to be able to judge when it is safe to push your limits and when it is not. So its probably better to become confident in your abilities before you start pushing your grades.
Falling safely is not just about learning to place good gear, but also learning to take into consideration the wider issues. For instance is the climb well protected, If you do fall will the gear hold, is there anything that you may hit while fall, if you do fall where are you likely to end up, are you somewhere where if everything goes wrong, you can get assistance, or you(and your climbing partner) are equipped to rescue yourselves.
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sungam
Nov 9, 2009, 1:18 PM
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angry wrote: You shouldn't fall on 5.6- to 5.8 anyway, you'll hurt yourself. When things get steeper and harder, assuming that the gear is good and you won't smack stuff on the way down, it is as safe as sport to fall. That said, hundreds of falls. None of them bad enough to do more than make me a little slow for a few days.
Some people just can't use grigri's *sigh*
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epoch
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Nov 9, 2009, 1:42 PM
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Knyte260 wrote: I have a question for some of the more experienced trad leaders on this board. I have been leading trad as often as possible in the last 6 months and have climbed on the lead end around 8000 feet in total. I have yet to take my first fall of any sort, and am curious if this is a normal experience. My expectations were far different, I guess from watching too many DVDs and such, I just figured falling was going to be a regular occurrence on a long route. I have been leading in the 5.6 to 5.8 range, and have been having a great time on all the routes. Is staying at a difficulty level where I am quite unlikely to fall a good general strategy? I'd like to know other trad leaders opinions on this. I lead 5.11 in the gym but it is an environment where the risks are minimized. I'm also curious to see what the average result is on a "typical" lead fall. I know this is a ridiculous question because all circumstances can be different, but maybe some of you have interesting stories to tell about some of your most memorable slip ups.
Well, as mentioned before milage is your friend right now. It isn't necessarily a bad thing that you haven't taken any falls. It's that you are not pusing yourself and doing routes that are within your onsite abilities. When you start pushing yourself you will start to take falls.
I've taken too many falls on gear to count. I have had memorable ones and I don't think a single fall has been 'typical' in one way or another. I've ripped marginal placements, small gear, and broken wires on the way down. In contrast, I have also taken some real wingers on solid gear.
You're starting out and milage is your friend for getting that eye for placements.
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lostlazy
Nov 9, 2009, 1:49 PM
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havard wrote: Many say "the leader must not fall" when talking trad. This is the smart, and safe approach. And when you're starting off, that is the right approach. You need to get your placement skills dialed, and then you can start pushing the grades. And when pushing the grades, falls will occure. I've been told, or read, I don't remember, that there are three skills in trad climbing. It's the mental aspect, the gear placement, and the physical climbing. Only one aspect should be pushed at the time. I think that is a good advice. When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die.
Words to live by, especially for the beginner.
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healyje
Nov 9, 2009, 3:04 PM
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lostlazy wrote: Words to live by, especially for the beginner.
They are definitely words to live by for beginners. But folks escaping a lingering intermediate status might want to consider pushing 2 out of 3 on occasion and climbers at the top of the game sometimes push all three. I have a pretty hard time with generalized rules such as this, and in particular the entirely misdirected "must not fall" mantra which I've never understood except in certain alpine and ice settings.
P.S. Oh, and short of a hold breaking, 99 times out of a 100 falling is just an outward symptom of you jumping off the rock at your emotional, rather than physical, limit.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 9, 2009, 3:16 PM)
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billl7
Nov 9, 2009, 3:04 PM
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Above, lots of good replies.
I have been traditioinally leading for about 4 1/2 years on a "weekend warrior" basis. As one more comparison to yourself , my first fall on gear was after roughly 1 1/2 years into that period. That fall and subsequent outings with falls (a dozen?, more if counting multiple falls at same crux) have only been on 5.8s and above and with high confidence in my protection.
Nothing glorious about falling on trad gear. I feel it is generally to be avoided on traditional leads. Banged a knee and tweaked an elbow on one. Bruised a heel on another. Besides the pain or worse, rescuing victims from climbing accidents is usually slow, slow, and slow.
Bill L
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lena_chita
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Nov 9, 2009, 6:28 PM
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I am a new trad leader. I have been leading on gear for a little over a year, but I don't have many chances to do so.
My best onsight on gear is 5.9. My hardest lead on gear was 5.11d. (my best sport redpoint is 5.12b, for comparison)
I had one occasion of a 'take', and two real falls. One of them was small and kind-of expected, with good gear, and one was biggish and unexpected, on a piece of gear that I did not think would hold (I actually clipped it to the rope because I did not want it to fall out onto the belayer, and did not want to spend time trying to get it out). The piece below it was solid, and I was not in groundfall territory, but the shitty piece held for some reason.
The small fall with good gear was on .11d. The big fall with shitty gear was on 5.9...
It is probably better to stay in the safe and comfortable zone of "I am confident I won't fall" until you get a lot of mileage. But sometimes things work out differently despite our best intentions.
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ryanb
Nov 9, 2009, 7:52 PM
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I don't think I really started falling until I started pushing into the 5.11's on gear. I'd certainly hung on gear, and even slipped off of delicate friction moves few times before that but now I fall fairly frequently... like I don't feel that I can climb truly well unless I get a fall in early in the weekend to remove the lead jitters.
I think this is a fairly common experience for a developing trad leader...I know a fair number of people who thought they were invincible on the rock because they were able to start leading 10's without ever falling (a few of them even started soloing big stuff because of it) but pretty much everyone starts to fall if they are trying to onsite in the 10+ 11- range.
Its really important to make sure your gear placement skills are really solid before you start doing this... there are too many stories of new leaders zippering gear these days. This is a topic for a another thread but, mileage alone is not enough as it can just reinforce bad habits... especially if the mileage is under the tutelage of an "experienced" leader who hasn't actually taken a lot of falls... a sure sign of this is if they regularly get there ankle behind the rope.
In terms of sheer number of actual falls I am not sure... I find most routes can be well protected at the hard bits (ie gear above your knees when you fall) and i've fallen or hung numerous times in this situation. These falls can still seem serious due to rope stretch but aren't really that bad. I will also occasionally try to lead routes with mandatory run outs and I'd say I have taken 10-20 proper falls with my feet above gear (usually because the crack pinches down or flares out for a body length or two).
My most recent properly exciting fall happened while attempting to flash the delicate upper stem box on Shirley (11c) at index, wa...I fell about 10-15 feet with rope stretch onto a grey 00 master cam backed up with a yellow alien a bit below.
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havard
Nov 9, 2009, 7:56 PM
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healyje wrote: lostlazy wrote: Words to live by, especially for the beginner. They are definitely words to live by for beginners. But folks escaping a lingering intermediate status might want to consider pushing 2 out of 3 on occasion and climbers at the top of the game sometimes push all three. I have a pretty hard time with generalized rules such as this, and in particular the entirely misdirected "must not fall" mantra which I've never understood except in certain alpine and ice settings. P.S. Oh, and short of a hold breaking, 99 times out of a 100 falling is just an outward symptom of you jumping off the rock at your emotional, rather than physical, limit.
healyje, I belive you are right, after giving it some thought. Pushing two out of three might feel fine. When I read your statemet of this the first time, I tought "hmm.. not good" and then I realized that I did just this earlier his fall. A 5 pitch route that are a bit above my normal onsight level, and allso way out of my mental comfort zone.
To the OP: Falling will come naturally. Don't worry about it. Not until you find yourself limited with fear of falling. Then it's time to let your belayer practice holding falls. This season I've done some fall practice, and that helped my confidence a lot. Now it's to cold to lead trad in Norway, and this means solo aid season is starting. Oh, good times! :)
Number of falls? I have no idea. But I fell twice on the crux of my first gear lead. And I've been continuing to push my limits on gear ever since. This season is the first of four that I have my personal hardest route on bolts..
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boadman
Nov 9, 2009, 8:46 PM
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healyje wrote: lostlazy wrote: Words to live by, especially for the beginner.
Wow, you actually posted something pertinent & concise.
I've fallen on gear a lot. I didn't really start falling until I was leading stuff in the 10+ range though, for the same reasons stated previously.
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zealotnoob
Nov 9, 2009, 9:23 PM
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Have never fallen on 5.9 and below. Have rarely fallen on 5.10. Am now learning to embrace falling as part of the progression as I break into 11s.
Generally speaking, given that there's usually a lot to hit on the easy stuff, best not to fall below 5.9.
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kylekienitz
Nov 9, 2009, 9:36 PM
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Sadly I haven't pushed myself on gear too much. I have fallen a couple of times on some 5.10s. I haven't climbed anything harder than that on gear though. Hopefully soon I'll push into the 11 range with trad.
I remember my first fall I was so nervous that the small nut was going to pull. It was a clean fall, and the nut held.
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bennydh
Nov 9, 2009, 9:39 PM
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boadman wrote: healyje wrote: lostlazy wrote: Words to live by, especially for the beginner. Wow, you actually posted something pertinent & concise. I've fallen on gear a lot. I didn't really start falling until I was leading stuff in the 10+ range though, for the same reasons stated previously.
I trad lead within a few letter grades of my non-leading ability. When that grade started getting higher and that gap smaller, I started taking many more falls. On a regular day of trad climbing, it isn't abnormal to fall 3 or 4 times per hard route with normal falls in the length of 10 to 20 feet.
As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience.
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boadman
Nov 9, 2009, 9:46 PM
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I have to admit that I often let go because I'm scared to go any higher above my gear, rather than falling because I can't hold on any longer.
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healyje
Nov 9, 2009, 9:48 PM
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bennydh wrote: As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience.
Well, that is exactly what I'd expect most climbers to say - it's not an easy idea to digest and accept - but then, embracing that umpleasant truth might just set your climbing free...
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TarHeelEMT
Nov 9, 2009, 9:50 PM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience. Well, that is exactly what I'd expect most climbers to say - it's not an easy idea to digest and accept - but then, embracing that umpleasant truth might just set your climbing free...
There is no spoon
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 10, 2009, 3:13 AM
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Lead falls? Lots. I don't know how many. I don't fall as often as I could. It depends on who I am climbing with. It generally has to do with the strength of my partner. If I have a strong partner, then I am more likely to get on stuff that I will fall on.
As far as the falls themselves, I have taken numerous short falls. but only a couple long ones. And by long, I mean 20-25 feet. The first one was my first lead fall and the second was when I was working a climb at my limit and had good gear and a lot of air beneath me. To save some energy, I ran it out a bit.
Josh
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camhead
Nov 10, 2009, 3:19 AM
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I've fallen a lot on trad routes.
I've only taken one fall in a "don't fall" situation, however.
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crazy_fingers84
Nov 10, 2009, 3:37 AM
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havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die.
how does that constitute free soloing?
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altelis
Nov 10, 2009, 3:41 AM
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crazy_fingers84 wrote: havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die. how does that constitute free soloing?
And what does it mean if you can answer "where is the next placement?" with no
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camhead
Nov 10, 2009, 3:41 AM
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havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die.
It's because of attitudes like this that we need not fear a Viking invasion anytime soon.
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curt
Nov 10, 2009, 3:53 AM
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sungam wrote: angry wrote: You shouldn't fall on 5.6- to 5.8 anyway, you'll hurt yourself. When things get steeper and harder, assuming that the gear is good and you won't smack stuff on the way down, it is as safe as sport to fall. That said, hundreds of falls. None of them bad enough to do more than make me a little slow for a few days. The only fall I've had that hurt for more then a few days was this one time in Colorado, but that was on toprope, so I dunno if it counts here. Some people just can't use grigri's *sigh*
Heh. 
Curt
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bennydh
Nov 10, 2009, 4:41 AM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience. Well, that is exactly what I'd expect most climbers to say - it's not an easy idea to digest and accept - but then, embracing that umpleasant truth might just set your climbing free...
Erring on the favorable side of your statement in percentages: At least 1 out of every 10 falls I take is due to a jam that unexpectedly pulls, usually on an off finger or cupped hand sized crack, or my foot cuts unexpectedly on routes where a crack turns into a balancy layback with smearing feet or tapered crack with a combination of face moves or thin edging, that is 10% not 1%(again erring on the favorable side of your ridiculous numerical assumption).
Just letting go because you aren't in an emotional state to focus on climbing not falling, that may be your problem; but like I said respectfully, it has not been my experience.
Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it.
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dr_feelgood
Nov 10, 2009, 5:13 AM
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One that counts. And I was 'hiking'.
I've forgotten how many actual gear falls, but <25.
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healyje
Nov 10, 2009, 6:11 AM
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bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it.
Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 10, 2009, 6:18 AM)
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jt512
Nov 10, 2009, 6:58 AM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Jay
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bennydh
Nov 10, 2009, 7:14 AM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
While I've never completely disagreed with your more general concept that climbers do sometimes, maybe often, physically relinquish to a mental failure, your estimated percentage as to the frequency is only a reflection of your personal experience, and can only be an opinion.
I shared my personal experience, and without a shred of data to validate your numbers, your numbers can only be your projection unto other climbers based on your experiences.
Your assumptions as to the mental, emotional, and physical abilities, as well as the point at which one may duress to the other, about other climbers, is simply presumptive.
I respect your opinion as much as I do my own, but to state non-scientific numbers and the assertion that you wholly understand the mental state of the entire trad climbing community as if it were indisputable fact, is just pretentious and arrogant. It also doesn't lend you much credibility outside of hypocrisy in trying to convince others that they have to lay at ease egos, as a requirement to dealing with failure.
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havard
Nov 10, 2009, 7:18 AM
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camhead wrote: havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die. It's because of attitudes like this that we need not fear a Viking invasion anytime soon.
Good one, camhead. However, you are wrong. The reason for you not to fear a viking invation is that we've allready been there. And we did not see anything worth keeping. :D
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jt512
Nov 10, 2009, 7:18 AM
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bennydh wrote: healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment. While I've never completely disagreed with your more general concept that climbers do sometimes, maybe often, physically relinquish to a mental failure, your estimated percentage as to the frequency is only a reflection of your personal experience, and can only be an opinion. I shared my personal experience, and without a shred of data to validate your numbers, your numbers can only be your projection unto other climbers based on your experiences. Your assumptions as to the mental, emotional, and physical abilities, as well as the point at which one may duress to the other, about other climbers, is simply presumptive. I respect your opinion as much as I do my own, but to state non-scientific numbers and the assertion that you wholly understand the mental state of the entire trad climbing community as if it were indisputable fact, is just pretentious and arrogant. It also doesn't lend you much credibility outside of hypocrisy in trying to convince others that they have to lay at ease egos, as a requirement to dealing with failure.
Let me guess: you were an English major.
Jay
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healyje
Nov 10, 2009, 9:51 AM
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bennydh wrote: ...without a shred of data to validate your numbers, your numbers can only be your projection unto other climbers based on your experiences.
It's not about 'data', 'validation', or 'projection' - think of it more as a concrete application of inversion of control where, under otherwise normal circumstances, you are the primary constraint to increased agility on rock.
My personal 'experiences' have included some pretty fundamental rethinking of the barriers to improved performance on rock which led me to a few different observations over time, but the most fundamental, pertinent, and immediately applicable one of all was pretty damn simple: stop jumping off the friggin' rock.
And wouldn't you know, you can start applying it any time, even in intervals of seconds in the beginning. Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. Then, as they say in banking - 'mind the pennies' - the next thing you know those seconds really start adding up into some surprising staying power.
bennydh wrote: ...the assertion that you wholly understand the mental state of the entire trad climbing community as if it were indisputable fact, is just pretentious and arrogant.
Damn if it isn't it, and I'd also say it's universally applicable to all climbing and not limited to just trad climbing in any way.
bennydh wrote: It also doesn't lend you much credibility outside of hypocrisy in trying to convince others that they have to lay at ease egos, as a requirement to dealing with failure.
Ah, well, possibly you misunderstand. It isn't a matter of "having to lay at ease egos" so much as recognizing the limiting role ego plays in the face of one's own perceptions of 'failure'. Don't 'ease' your ego, but simply try to look past it with a bit of honesty about what's really happening in your head the next time you 'fall'.
As for credibility, it pretty much goes hand-in-hand with 'validation', both of which you either figure out internally or you don't - another part of the puzzle no doubt. My FAs fairly represent my climbing over decades and you, should you ever get on any of them, are certainly free to judge me by them as you will.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 10, 2009, 10:15 AM)
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angry
Nov 10, 2009, 11:46 AM
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I think a fair bit of lead falls are just as you said, people jumping off.
Making the assessment that you're too tired to continue, or it's unsafe, etc and dropping off. I'm even inclined to agree with you more when I think about my most utterly on edge leads, the ones where I hung absolutely everything I had out; most of those times, I sent.
However, I have fallen at an above my maximum level. And I've frequently pushed beyond what I thought I could do. I'm just some Alien luvin punk ass, I'm not some statistical outlier. I wouldn't say most climbers are like me but there are a hell of a lot that are, far more than your BS statistic states.
Your psuedo spiritual half-matrix eye of the tiger mumbo jumbo makes me realize you have nothing to base your claims on other than a feeling. Of course, you're Healyje, you're always right, you cannot be wrong and you cannot be persuaded any other arguments. I'll soon be insulted by you informing me that I only argue because you go where I'm afraid to.
Who is this noble Zen Master? The one who has all the insight into climbing and really, into our souls? It's a man who can rope solo 11+ in mossy choss and who might have toproped a 5.13 in the 70's, but it was a totally R-rated toprope. Bow.
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camhead
Nov 10, 2009, 12:10 PM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
I agree with this to a degree, at least from my personal experience. It has been very rare for me to truly climb at my 100% limit, and to fall from purely physical failure. My falls have almost always been a case of my head saying "you can't do this move" and then my body failing a millisecond later. It's a great feeling to push your mind and body forward, and to either send, or to fail purely physically.
I would expect that most climbers have a similar process of mental doubt before physical failure.
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dingus
Nov 10, 2009, 3:07 PM
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angry wrote: I think a fair bit of lead falls are just as you said, people jumping off. Making the assessment that you're too tired to continue, or it's unsafe, etc and dropping off. I'm even inclined to agree with you more when I think about my most utterly on edge leads, the ones where I hung absolutely everything I had out; most of those times, I sent. However, I have fallen at an above my maximum level. And I've frequently pushed beyond what I thought I could do. I'm just some Alien luvin punk ass, I'm not some statistical outlier. I wouldn't say most climbers are like me but there are a hell of a lot that are, far more than your BS statistic states. Your psuedo spiritual half-matrix eye of the tiger mumbo jumbo makes me realize you have nothing to base your claims on other than a feeling. Of course, you're Healyje, you're always right, you cannot be wrong and you cannot be persuaded any other arguments. I'll soon be insulted by you informing me that I only argue because you go where I'm afraid to. Who is this noble Zen Master? The one who has all the insight into climbing and really, into our souls? It's a man who can rope solo 11+ in mossy choss and who might have toproped a 5.13 in the 70's, but it was a totally R-rated toprope. Bow.
You're not normal Angry. Face it. you pursue hard OW and other hints of madness.
I'm an average bloke, the sort of which healyje writes about. Rarely have I truly and I mean truly risen to my capacity in the contexts of this thread. Done it other ways more consistently, but in terms of lead climbing trad... no.
I was blessed for a time to climb with a man who not only could but did consistently lead right up to his limits and yet rarely did he fall.
We top roped and bouldered enough together that at any given time I knew his absolute performance thresholds reasonably well.
He had (to my eye) and incredible gift of self-assessment. He could and often did climb to within the merest wisp of his absolute ability, often way runnout too.
He'd back down some, but mostly he knew himself well enough it wasn't necessary.
He had the gift. A Master, in the true sense.
What a of these threads ignore is the totality of a career. A guy like healyje can't ignore it, he's lived it. Some of you, no disrespect intended are still wet behind the ears and have yet to taste the bitter pill of middle age.
Some day your best days will be behind you; they will. And yet if you're lucky you will still be climbing. Continuing to push to your limits in a declining body.... that takes a special form of madness and mental mastery, particularly if you've ever been hurt due to your own past failings and fallings.
Think about these questions when you are 40, 45, 50, 55 and 60...
Climber.,.. KNOW THYSELF.
DMT
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kachoong
Nov 10, 2009, 3:38 PM
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havard wrote: camhead wrote: havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die. It's because of attitudes like this that we need not fear a Viking invasion anytime soon. Good one, camhead. However, you are wrong. The reason for you not to fear a viking invation is that we've allready been there. And we did not see anything worth keeping. :D
From what I have read, it was the natives with bows in canoes that drove off the vikings from Newfoundland.... a couple of times....
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kachoong
Nov 10, 2009, 3:45 PM
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angry wrote: I'm just some Alien luvin punk ass, I'm not some statistical outlier.
Some would argue that these are the same thing... but I think more people use them (members of the "I Love Falling on Aliens Coalition") than the haters might think.
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the_climber
Nov 10, 2009, 4:32 PM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience. Well, that is exactly what I'd expect most climbers to say - it's not an easy idea to digest and accept - but then, embracing that umpleasant truth might just set your climbing free...
I'm with healy on this one. Benny, how many "no fall" situation have you been in? I'm talking about the ones where you're strung out on new ground... I'm talking about the ones when a fall would require a rescue at best (most likely worse), and the requirement to sack up and climb was at the highest it's ever been; The edge of the emotional envelope so to speak.
You would be shocked at how well you can climb when you master your fears when it counts.
Most who have been there, or even close to there, would agree with the 99% of the time we back off because of emotional reasons.
Edit to add: There are some climbers who can climb with a mastery of their fears and a "true" understanding of their physical limits. Dingus touched on that a few posts above.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Nov 10, 2009, 4:36 PM)
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minibiter
Nov 10, 2009, 5:31 PM
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I've been trad climbing for probably two years. Didn't start falling until I was comfy with my gear and where I put it. Part of this learning process was taking intentional falls on my gear so I'd trust it. I took at least on sizeable (>10') fall on each type of gear I carry - nuts, hexes, tricams, cams. Since then I've probably taken 20-30 falls or so, you lose count after a while.
Nowadays my mantra is 'climb until you fall, so long as the gear is good and the fall is clean'.
If the gear's not good, or the fall's not clean, there's no shame in taking!
Of course, I started out as a purely sport climber, so my approach to falling is probably different than those who started out as purely trad climbers. Now I go back and forth between sport and trad.
The statement of only pushing one of the mental, physical, or safety aspect of a climb at a time is definitely good advice. Sometimes it's hard to disconnect them though, the mental aspect is heavily involved in the other two. I guess my mantra above is just a restatement of this rule of thumb.
My $0.02
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bennydh
Nov 10, 2009, 7:49 PM
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I've actually climbed in no-fall situations quite a few times. I've also mostly planned ahead of time, selected as many routes with clean falls, good gear, or at the very least no-fall climbing within my physical and mental ability; for the reason that if I were to physically fail I wouldn't fall, ground fall, and die.
In reply to: "Most who have been there, or even close to there, would agree with the 99%"
I'm going to also add, that I've climbed at my physical limit, whilst totally unconditioned, obsessed over a route, repeatedly tried to redpoint, repeatedly fell at physical limit, and had a mild and fortunately short lived bout with rhabdomyolisis as a result. It would have been better if emotional issues were preventative of such damage, but that didn't happen not 99%.
the_climber, I've agreed all along that climbers often physically duress at mental limits, and I can accept that you agree with healyje based on your experiences. Although the 99% as it has been wholly applied to the entire community based on the experiences of a few individuals as if this were some sort of fact, while a few others have shared something entirely different makes the number bogus. I've shared my experience and I am not imposing it unto all climbers as if it were factual and applicable to everyone. That would be arrogant... maybe if I loaded it into some horseshit spiritual statement so that it sounds pious as well, everyone will agree with a different number. Or if I say the Pope of the Holy Roman Catholic Church says 30 percent and he is infallible and spiritual, it must be so for everyone.
99% is an opinion, and any of you are entitled to agree with it, but it doesn't mean that it is a wholly applicable fact.
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ryanb
Nov 10, 2009, 8:21 PM
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healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer.
I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again.
I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it.
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dbogardus
Nov 10, 2009, 8:34 PM
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bennydh wrote: 99% is an opinion, and any of you are entitled to agree with it, but it doesn't mean that it is a wholly applicable fact.
99% of climbers agree with you benny.
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wmfork
Nov 10, 2009, 9:33 PM
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healyje wrote: Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
There is a big difference between not able to reach your physical limit and simply relinquishing control. Besides, I thought conscious mind is what inhibits you from reaching physical limit.
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pfwein
Nov 10, 2009, 10:19 PM
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ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it.
I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time.
They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology.
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byran
Nov 10, 2009, 11:08 PM
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ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it.
You've got to learn to climb through the pain. When you're cranking so hard your bicep detaches from the bone and your colon pops out of your asshole, don't just let go like 99% of those sissies. Ya got to engage the abs more and maybe try holding onto the rock with your teeth.
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notapplicable
Nov 11, 2009, 6:41 AM
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pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology.
Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing.
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curt
Nov 11, 2009, 6:42 AM
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pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology.
Unless of course the boulder problem is a high-ball or otherwise dangerous to fall off of, in which case, Healyje's theorem applies perfectly to bouldering.
Curt
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healyje
Nov 11, 2009, 8:36 AM
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Given we started climbing in John Gill's wake through the area, yeah, I have highball bouldered and buildered in, as you say, the old skool style - you know, where you fell on the ground or concrete with no pads. And among my crew it was largely a solo pursuit so it was typically done without spotters as well. It was a high-incentive, quasi-ritualistic, and occasionally brutal pastime where we did fall a fair amount as I recall. Ditto for way too many idiot, onsight 'WTF am I ignorantly following Doug (Drewes) for' paired soloing sessions with the always inevitable 'root-digger' topouts.
And to those who think there is anything spiritual or new agey about what I'm talking about, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it's just the opposite, it's about making an effort to cut through the typical panicky chatter, denials, and rationales rattling about in most folks heads in the prelude to a jump, and which almost always lingers for a brief spell afterwards.
From the posts here it sounds like some discussion is warranted around what I mean by 'limit', and the typical deltas most folks climb with. Take for instance the delta most of you express between what you're prepared to lead sport and trad - that's not a bad one to look at and certainly not a 'Matrix' projection of mine. What's that one about - climbing is climbing, right? I mean talking 'spreads' is about gambling isn't it, or in the case of climbing is it really more about hedging bets?
That sport/trad delta most of you express is a conscious one, and the reasons for it don't require much discussion, other than how it pertains to where you think your sport limit is relative to what I call your 'physical limit'. That's the delta I'm talking about and, from where I sit, it's also where the disagreement and confusion comes from as well.
When I speak of our '[absolute] physical limit' I mean just that and I have no problem saying most folks only experience and become aware of their physical limit in relatively rare death or near death experiences. And this shouldn't in any way be confused with our ability to over endure or abuse ourselves - bennydh mentioned climbing until he developed temporary rhabdomyolisis, and I would suggest you could do that, or injure yourself in any number of ways, just as easily by over-doing it way under your physical limit. Me? I've maybe climbed at my physical limit a half dozen times in thirty five years of climbing and three of those I was going to die, die, die if I hadn't. So maybe I've climbed at my physical limit three times of my own volition is my guess.
What I'm suggesting here is that the delta between your sport and physical limit isn't what you think it is and also that it is way greater than most of you believe it is. Yeah, I hear your denial and outrage, but sorry, it rings as hollow to me as the collective wisdom on how necessary chalk is on your average 5.11. So yeah, I'm claiming there's a shitload of headroom to work with above what you consider your current sport limit.
Next comes the question of just how much of that headroom is, or could really be, at your conscious disposal on any regular basis? And that's exactly where emotional limits comes into play. That our emotional limits are amazingly powerful and difficult to bust through or push up is another claim I'm making. That we play some pretty sophisticated games with ourselves and more often than not they all amount to denial wrapped in a myriad of varied and convenient rationales, i.e. bullshit. Think dieting and obesity; there wouldn't be a 'Biggest Loser' TV show if humans weren't capable of some seriously delusional headtrips when dealing with primal instincts - not that I'm saying you're fat or anything.
Now I suppose I could pretend that we're all veritable Bachars and Reardons capable of controlling our emotional limit with an ease that would be the envy of guys like them, who disciplined their emotions through years and miles of solo yardage, but I can't. My experience, and that of pretty much everyone I know, save one, has been that breaking through my emotional limit is always the key to upping the ante in my climbing.
And I'll agree on the point there is no shortage of advocates of new age thinking, psycho-analyses, prayer, and fear-practice who do actually advocate a lot of mumbo-jumbo, but I'm not one of them. Basically I'm a skeptic and an atheist and it's just easier in the long run for me to cut to the chase and call a spade a spade; to tell myself what's painfully obvious in that emperor-has-new-clothes sort of way if I can just I cut through my own bullshit: stop jumping off the rock.
Again, even when applied a mere second at a time it really does add up. And the 99% thing? It's mainly because I find myself so profoundly unremarkable and - especially given today's demographic - think 99% of you are as well. But then who knows? Maybe you're all the exception to the rule.
P.S. Trad falls I'd count as a real fall? Probably 200-300, possibly more - I have no real idea at this point. The most recent was a 40-50 footer on an FA that's been taking way too damn long (maybe I've been listening to too much of my own bullshit...).
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 11:45 AM)
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 6:02 PM
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There is an interesting philosophical divide going on here; maybe we can keep it civil for once and all improve our mental game.
The old school amongst us are holding up soloists and high ball boulders in a discussion about falls.
I would argue that basing your gear climbing mental game off these people is a fallacy. They are are amazing athletes with outstanding confidence in their own abilities, but they are climbing well within their limit and have convinced themselves they won't be falling.
The people actually pushing the limits of trad climbing on lead are taking falls. Even on remote big walls: http://www.xpedition.be/ http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related.
There are times when falling is to be avoided..where you better hold on. I try to avoid climbing at my limit in these situations.
It is also possible to push your limits on gear climbs by applying more sporty tactics...by progressively accustoming yourself to falling until you can work hard thin moves on lead. I have found that success in these situations is more about letting go...about accepting that you will be falling at times and doing what you need to do to convince yourself the fall is safe. Sometimes this means jumping off a few times without fully committing to the moves so that you can let go of your fear and focus on the moves...
But I am far from the most experienced gear climber on this thread so all of this is just the BS I use to convince my fearful self to get at it the few times a year I hop on something that legitimately scares me...train hard all winter, wait for the right cool dry spring day, back up the gear, stack the pads and give it a few trys. I'd probably send more and hangdog less if i did fight through it more, run it out more ...
TLDR: "falling is no big deal, you might as well give that move a good try" vs "don't fall!"
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 6:03 PM
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notapplicable wrote: pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology. Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing.
5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
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healyje
Nov 11, 2009, 6:52 PM
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Ryan, just a note to say that in no way am I advocating "must not fall". That is a saying I've never understood nor subscribed to - I've always assumed it was a bad holdover from very early ethos, alpine, and ice.
On the bouldering note, I do know plenty of 5.11 trad climbers who don't boulder; I suspect sometimes it's very much a generational thing. Here in Portland we have a bouldering gym which is very popular and always filled with the very best sorts of people who are all sending V8 unimpared by unsightly harnesses or nasty ropes. I will say I do get concerned for the longevity of their fingers and occasionally wonder just what percentage of them have ever climbed outside or could get up a 5.7 if handed a rack (I know, I know, that misses the point) - again, I'm guessing it's very much a generationally-driven demographic.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 11, 2009, 8:23 PM)
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bennydh
Nov 11, 2009, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
I needs the Metamucil then, 'cuz I ain't bouldering fairly regularly.
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suprasoup
Nov 11, 2009, 8:12 PM
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ryanb wrote: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
I know of hundreds of climbers that climb hard 12's on gear without ever bouldering. My own mentor, whose abilities are worlds above my own, has scoffed at the notion of bouldering to improve trad. The paths to power are as varied as the stars in the sky.
Push Past Perceived Limitations.
Edit: To answer the question, literally hundreds. During the first two years of my apprenticeship I never fell. Typical falls for me are 20-40' footers because I have a nasty habit of running out things.
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Nov 11, 2009, 8:24 PM)
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notapplicable
Nov 11, 2009, 9:01 PM
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Wonderful. In every sense of the word.
And I about jump out of my seat when he faltered above the ledge at 3:40 but his composure never wavered. Thank you for posting that.
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sungam
Nov 11, 2009, 9:16 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Wonderful. In every sense of the word. And I about jump out of my seat when he faltered above the ledge at 3:40 but his composure never wavered. Thank you for posting that.
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notapplicable
Nov 11, 2009, 9:17 PM
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ryanb wrote: notapplicable wrote: pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology. Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing. 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
Yeah, well Roman Polanski watches Brett Ratner movies [true story] but that doesn't mean Rush Hour qualifies as cinema.
People just like to go slumming. No real accounting for it.
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 10:37 PM
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suprasoup wrote: ryanb wrote: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0% I know of hundreds of climbers that climb hard 12's on gear without ever bouldering.
Really? How do these hundreds of people train?
Everyone I know who climbs hard spends a lot of time training, much of it rope free and close to the ground. After work sessions at the gym or on local boulders, 4x4s, enduro traversing, system walls, circuits, offseason trips to bishop or jtree to get strong...
If you actually know *hundreds* of people who climb 12+ on gear without ever doing any of that i'd love to know how they train and where they climb 'cause either they are doing something magic or that place is soft.
I guess if you are lucky enough to have dedicated belayers and an abundance of perma-dry local sport climbing you could get pretty strong without ever wrestling a pebble, but I just can't think of any good climbers who voluntarily limit themselves that much...
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dingus
Nov 11, 2009, 10:52 PM
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Age grouping factor in Ryanb?
DMT
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sonso45
Nov 11, 2009, 11:09 PM
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I am an oldster. I did get much better when I began to boulder hard but that was years ago. I haven't lead 12+ on anything but still get up 11's on gear. I don't boulder much anymore but that's a lack of interest and Curt hasn't asked me out lately.
I like this topic and feel that bouldering and fighting the mental barrier definitely helped on lead. I had to fight to stop saying internally, I'm gonna fall. Now I just prepare as I move and work it out. It usually is a big surprise when I do fall.
BTW, Dingus, thanks for posting Herr Johne's lead: WOW!
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 11:15 PM
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dingus wrote: Age grouping factor in Ryanb? DMT
I don't think so...I know a lot of older active climbers through access/trail volunteer work etc and most of the older climbers I know either boulder or no longer lead 5.11 ...
I guess it could be a local (community or weather) effect, the past couple of years I have been climbing almost exclusively at Index and a few other spots in the northern cascades... there aren't that many 5.11 leaders at Index to begin with and most of em (even the alpinists) seem to end up bouldering at the gym or on the dry side of the cascades quite a few times during the winter.
Is the rest of the world really full of people who climb exclusively trad and send hard? Maybe its time to move...
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 12:37 AM
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ryanb wrote: Is the rest of the world really full of people who climb exclusively trad and send hard? Maybe its time to move...
Try the Valley, Eldo, Gunks, Red Rocks, N. Carolina - there are plenty of folks out there who aren't bound by our NW weather and who climb hard without ever bouldering.
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pfwein
Nov 12, 2009, 1:00 AM
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ryanb wrote: dingus wrote: Age grouping factor in Ryanb? DMT I don't think so...I know a lot of older active climbers through access/trail volunteer work etc and most of the older climbers I know either boulder or no longer lead 5.11 ... I guess it could be a local (community or weather) effect, the past couple of years I have been climbing almost exclusively at Index and a few other spots in the northern cascades... there aren't that many 5.11 leaders at Index to begin with and most of em (even the alpinists) seem to end up bouldering at the gym or on the dry side of the cascades quite a few times during the winter. Is the rest of the world really full of people who climb exclusively trad and send hard? Maybe its time to move...
I see the world from your perspective. I live in place with lots of climbing and climbers, and it's rare to see people on trad 12s; the few you see seem to be all-around climbers who climb sport and boulder as well as trad.
If other people have different experiences, that's interesting, I'll keep my eyes open for these hundreds of trad 12 climbing non-boulderers (and presumably non sport climbers).
Maybe they all climb M-F
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dingus
Nov 12, 2009, 1:33 AM
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Know several older climbers who do both and I know several others who won't risk the ground impact of bouldering anymore.
DMT
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 1:52 AM
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The biggest roof on my current FA project is rapidly morfing from 5.11+ R/X into 5.12- R territory and to be honest, at 57, while I can still do a lot of things to get and stay in shape for goes on it, what I can't afford is doing much bouldering given the overall condition of my hands at this point.
But then that really isn't why I don't boulder. I've always climbed for the triple combination of movement, exposure, and gear - pull exposure out for bouldering, or gear out for sport, and my interest and attention span pretty much collapse overnight. Sport in particular bores me to tears; if I'm going to focus on movement I'd rather just toprope stuff and skip the faux clipping. By and large I figure I have three more years of doing interesting onsight, groundup, no-dogging trad FAs so that's where I stay focused.
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ptlong
Nov 12, 2009, 2:09 AM
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What do you expect will happen three years from now?
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johnwesely
Nov 12, 2009, 2:11 AM
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I am only 19, and I can't seem to boulder for more than a month without my fingers starting to ache, but I have really long fingers that leverage hard on my pulleys.
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wanderlustmd
Nov 12, 2009, 2:36 AM
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sungam wrote: angry wrote: You shouldn't fall on 5.6- to 5.8 anyway, you'll hurt yourself. When things get steeper and harder, assuming that the gear is good and you won't smack stuff on the way down, it is as safe as sport to fall. That said, hundreds of falls. None of them bad enough to do more than make me a little slow for a few days. The only fall I've had that hurt for more then a few days was this one time in Colorado, but that was on toprope, so I dunno if it counts here. Some people just can't use grigri's *sigh*
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wanderlustmd
Nov 12, 2009, 2:55 AM
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Impressive, to say the least.
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wanderlustmd
Nov 12, 2009, 3:01 AM
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notapplicable wrote: ryanb wrote: notapplicable wrote: pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology. Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing. 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0% Yeah, well Roman Polanski watches Brett Ratner movies [true story] but that doesn't mean Rush Hour qualifies as cinema. People just like to go slumming. No real accounting for it. 
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notapplicable
Nov 12, 2009, 3:50 AM
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sungam wrote: notapplicable wrote: Wonderful. In every sense of the word. And I about jump out of my seat when he faltered above the ledge at 3:40 but his composure never wavered. Thank you for posting that. I loved it!
Yeah, I just watched it for the third time. Good stuff.
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 5:10 AM
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ptlong wrote: What do you expect will happen three years from now?
My wife would like to see me wind down on the more dangerous FA's and by then I suspect I'll be inclined to accomodate her as I'm getting too old for this shit regardless of my age.
And just by coincidence I started climbing at a place with a lot in common with Elbsandstein and I tried to go there in '79 before the Iron Curtain fell. My wife and I have been talking about moving to Europe so maybe I'll stop doing FAs, move to Elbsandstein, and assume a grovelling grasshopper pose until I'm worthy.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 5:12 AM)
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ryanb
Nov 12, 2009, 8:01 AM
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johnwesely wrote: I am only 19, and I can't seem to boulder for more than a month without my fingers starting to ache, but I have really long fingers that leverage hard on my pulleys.
The only tendon injury I have had happened when i was 19.
If it starts to hurt after a month, boulder for 3 weeks then go use the strength to climb some rocks that haven't fallen off the crag. The training guides call this "periodization."
I'm not saying you need to boulder particularly hard to be good at trad, but bouldering at even a moderate level is a great way to learn technique and gain some fitness.
It is also worth noting that the 11's at Index tend to have fierce bouldery thin cruxes requiring flawless technique and fingers of steal (which is why I mostly fall off of them). Other areas might tend to be more enduro...
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ryanb
Nov 12, 2009, 8:09 AM
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healyje wrote: The biggest roof on my current FA project is rapidly morfing from 5.11+ R/X into 5.12- R territory and to be honest, at 57, while I can still do a lot of things to get and stay in shape for goes on it, what I can't afford is doing much bouldering given the overall condition of my hands at this point. But then that really isn't why I don't boulder. I've always climbed for the triple combination of movement, exposure, and gear - pull exposure out for bouldering, or gear out for sport, and my interest and attention span pretty much collapse overnight. Sport in particular bores me to tears; if I'm going to focus on movement I'd rather just toprope stuff and skip the faux clipping. By and large I figure I have three more years of doing interesting onsight, groundup, no-dogging trad FAs so that's where I stay focused.
Yeah I've seen your pics of that route on cc.com. It looks rad but scary as hell.
I can certainly relate to not bouldering for the reasons you mention but you also said you bouldered when you were younger. How much of your development as a free climber do you think traces back to this? I feel like bouldering is where I learn techniques and the rope is where I apply them...
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 10:23 AM
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ryanb wrote: I can certainly relate to not bouldering for the reasons you mention but you also said you bouldered when you were younger. How much of your development as a free climber do you think traces back to this?
I wouldn't say no influence, but it was sporadic at best. The bouldering / buildering we did back then was pretty limited to on-campus walls (at SIU in SoIll. - see Doug Drewes on one in my profile pics) and roofs that were either too low to the ground or had lips right on the busy park road so you couldn't top rope them (there is still no bolting allowed in the park). One like that was "Leaves of the Failing Faith" which was a highball flat roof problem we stacked a row of leaves about 12' high and 20' long under to fall into way before pads. On the very last lunge to the top you had to be careful not to swing out over the edge of the road when you fell. We each took about 25 horizontal and vertical leaf dives before sticking it.
All in all they were more like random short side excursions driven by curiousity or boredom more than anything you'd call a practice. We were pretty focused on steep lines and roofs. There was a fellow we called 'Farmer' who didn't like heights much but did a lot of amazing bouldering out of holes and caves close to the ground. I particularly remember one he did that, on turning the lip, you had to work your middle finger way into a hollow, razor-edged, ring-like hole to move up and if you fell you weren't going to get it back and it was hard to get out again after you moved past it. I wouldn't do it, and it still gives me the willeys just thinking about it.
Adam Grosowsky and Alan Carrier started doing a long traverse in Giant City and bouldering around Little Grassy Lake which was probably more the reincarnation of dedicated bouldering in 70's SoIll.
Edit: Found a pic of LotFF from a visit back to SoIll a couple of years ago. The green dot is the top out and the leaves in the pic under the roof are a bit deceptive in that they about 5' deep at that point.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 10:50 AM)
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suprasoup
Nov 12, 2009, 5:47 PM
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Nothing mystical or magical about it. They put in the mileage, the time and the effort.
It's a tough pill to swallow when you're watching someone 10-20 years older than you cruise up things you can't even touch.
In the world of trad, competence and confidence are a better currency than strength.
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Nov 12, 2009, 5:48 PM)
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 11:54 PM
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suprasoup wrote: In the world of trad, competence and confidence are a better currency than strength.
I wouldn't disagree with that, but, it is a two-way street as some of the very high-end sport crossovers such as Nico Favresse have shown. I might posit that confidence in trad can come from experience and technique (competence) or, if you don't have the trad experience, by leveraging significant high-level sport experience and initially climbing substantially under your limit until you sort it out the details. You can do a lot with that approach, but you'll still have to put in serious trad yardage to really develop technical competence.
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cchas
Dec 19, 2009, 12:43 AM
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As for the original poster's question, I'm a pretty conservative leader and a weekend warrior myself. On this route http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rminator_100638.htmlI'm at probably 3 falls (two being 15-20+ft, and its not done yet (I'm about 1ft from getting it but the game is still on)
Depending on the route, falling can be a no big deal or a really bad idea. Integrating sports attitude into trad climbing when appropriate IMHO is not a bad thing.
(This post was edited by cchas on Dec 19, 2009, 12:46 AM)
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kheegster
Dec 22, 2009, 3:24 AM
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In my first year of leading in the Gunks, I've fallen 4 times:
- Twice in one day when it had just rained and the rock was wet, both times gear was around my feet so fall distance was short.
- Another larger fall (15 ft), again when my foot slipped off a wet foothold while pulling a roof (hmm...seeing a pattern here),
- My last lead of the season a few weeks ago, at the crux of Arrow. I don't think this really counts because the crux is bolted :).
In comparison with the time I whipped 20ft on an ice screw, I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of falling on rock gear :P
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quiteatingmysteak
Dec 22, 2009, 5:27 AM
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I am quite the exception to Healy's rule. Almost all of my falls have been on slabs. There was no option to let go - trust me I was trying to stay on! Foot pops, off I go. Oh well, I suck anyway. But there you have it. Probably three quarters of my falls I didn't see coming, but thats what makes it fun
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cchas
Dec 22, 2009, 9:38 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: I am quite the exception to Healy's rule. Almost all of my falls have been on slabs. There was no option to let go - trust me I was trying to stay on! Foot pops, off I go. Oh well, I suck anyway. But there you have it. Probably three quarters of my falls I didn't see coming, but thats what makes it fun Falls? Slabs? Didn't see coming? = FUN? You sir, need some help.
No we talked about this recently....
Slabs???? you need help. We actually thought that slab climbing should be discussed in an abnormal psych class.
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byran
Dec 23, 2009, 12:41 AM
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Most of my trad falls have been on slab too, but they've mostly been super short since the bolts tend to be near the hard parts. Just a few feet of backpedaling before the rope catches. But I've known plenty of people who climb harder cracks than me with tricky pro, who are absolutely terrified when it comes to leading slab, even fairly well protected ones.
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healyje
Dec 23, 2009, 2:01 AM
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Slab climbing is a different business altogether. More a matter learning to read the texture, developing a decent sense of stance, and learning to feel it. Not particularly my cup of tea - like chimneys, I find more than a little of it boring and tedious. I like to monkey, and slab climbing, like hard face climbing, is all about choking your inner monkey.
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cchas
Dec 23, 2009, 5:37 PM
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Now don't get me wrong.... when I was younger I liked nothing better then a good .11d slab, but I think I sort of stuffed myself on them and lost my taste.
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wallwombat
Feb 3, 2010, 12:28 PM
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There are a lot of one trick ponies on this site but not a lot of Mark Wilfords or Dave MacLeods.
To quote Robert Heinlein, "specialization is for insects".
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mrtristan
Feb 4, 2010, 12:12 AM
Post #93 of 108
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Registered: Jun 21, 2002
Posts: 596
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Knyte260 wrote: I have a question for some of the more experienced trad leaders on this board. I have been leading trad as often as possible in the last 6 months and have climbed on the lead end around 8000 feet in total. I have yet to take my first fall of any sort, and am curious if this is a normal experience. My expectations were far different, I guess from watching too many DVDs and such, I just figured falling was going to be a regular occurrence on a long route. I have been leading in the 5.6 to 5.8 range, and have been having a great time on all the routes. Is staying at a difficulty level where I am quite unlikely to fall a good general strategy? I'd like to know other trad leaders opinions on this. I lead 5.11 in the gym but it is an environment where the risks are minimized. I'm also curious to see what the average result is on a "typical" lead fall. I know this is a ridiculous question because all circumstances can be different, but maybe some of you have interesting stories to tell about some of your most memorable slip ups.
I've taken dozens of falls on trad gear. Once you fall a couple times and realize that your gear will catch you, you'll feel better about pushing your limits. I think it's only natural to not want to fall, but falling really isn't a big deal as long as you know when you CAN NOT fall (like before you get a piece in, etc.).
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bandycoot
Feb 4, 2010, 12:39 AM
Post #94 of 108
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Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
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I've fallen quite a bit trad climbing, and I think that what's important to understand is that people are typically naturally overly safe. Their fear will keep them from pushing limits, taking that fall on a single questionable piece, pushing their limits above a ledge, etc. For the most part, provided you understand the system and your situation, you're probably safe taking trad falls because people trend toward self preservation.
Josh
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jay590
Feb 5, 2010, 7:46 AM
Post #95 of 108
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Registered: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 40
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1 so far and i hit the ground because the belayer panicked and tried to hold the rope above the belay device
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rightarmbad
Feb 5, 2010, 11:40 AM
Post #96 of 108
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Registered: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 218
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So you were being belayed by a gri gri type of device then? On trad?
And, the belayer not only held your side of the rope but as well let go of the tail?
You need a new belayer!
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kachoong
Feb 5, 2010, 4:19 PM
Post #97 of 108
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Registered: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 15304
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Damn Aussies! Using everything upside down!
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jay590
Feb 5, 2010, 11:07 PM
Post #98 of 108
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Registered: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 40
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no it was not with a gri gri it was with and ATC and yer hes not my belayer anymore
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Adk
Feb 5, 2010, 11:13 PM
Post #99 of 108
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085
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Inspiring. Great find! Thanks
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slevin
Feb 8, 2010, 6:55 AM
Post #100 of 108
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Registered: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 21
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I have taken a fair number of falls, probably around a hundreed or more. I have only taken large whippers (say 20 ft or more) a few times and only had a piece of gear pull on me once (next placement caught me).
In my view, a trad fall on well protected overhanging crack is no different to falling on bolt-protected sport climb. In fact, if you have enough cams you could place a bit of gear every foot 
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thenose
Feb 8, 2010, 11:07 AM
Post #101 of 108
(3762 views)
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Registered: Feb 20, 2009
Posts: 47
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STOP BEING A BUNCH OF PUSSYS AND MAN UP. CHECK THIS SHIT OUT. SO THE OTHER DAY I WAS ON EL CAP DOING A HALF DAY PUSH / FIRST ACCENT OF “BLOW ME YOU GAY SPORT CLIMBER, VI A5 (R/X)”. MY PARTNER AND I WERE LINKING PITCHES WITH AN 80M ROPE. I WAS ON PITCH 34, ABOUT 250 FEET OUT. THIS WAS THE CRUX PITCH. IT WAS A BIT DANGEROUS BUT I AM NOT A PUSSY LIKE YOU TOOLS SO I WAS ABLE TO HANDLE IT.
RIGHT OUT OF THE BELAY STATION YOU HAVE TO FIFI HOOK YOUR ASS UP ABOUT 50 FEET BEFORE YOU GET THE FIRST PIECE IN. THEN YOU CAN GET IN A WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE. THE NEXT 100 FEET MAINLY INVOLVE SOME 5.14 FREE CLIMBING WITH RURP’S FOR PRO. THEN ONCE YOU HIT THE 200 FOOT MARK YOU GET TO A NICE MONO YOU CAN HANG OFF AND REST ON. AT THAT POINT YOU POUND IN ONE RURP, ONE PICKER AND YOU CAN DUCK TAPE ONE CLIFFHANGER TO THE WALL ON A MICRO CRIMP AND THEN YOU GO FOR IT. THE NEXT 80 FEET HIT YOU HARD…
OVER THE NEXT 80 FEET YOU HAVE A FLARING, 2 MM DEEP BOTTOMING CRACK AND NOT A THING MORE. ALL YOU CAN DO IS POUND RURP AFTER RURP IN THE CRACK AND HOPE THEY HOLD. FOR A MOMENT I GOT A BIT SCARED BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY GET THE RURP’S IN ABOUT 3 MM BUT THEN I THOUGHT OF ALL THE PUSSY 5.12 SPORT CLIMBERS OUT THERE AND I INSTANTLY FELT BETTER.
AFTER ABOUT 70 FEET OF NOTHING BUT RURP’S I HIT A SECTION OF 5.14C/D WHICH INVOLVED AN 8 FOOT DYNO OFF OF MY AIDER ATTACHED TO A SPECTRE ICE PITON HANGING ON A FLARING CRIMP TO A BOTTOMING MONO POCKET ON A ROOF. I YELLED DOWN TO MY BELAYER REQUESTING SLACK AND I WENT FOR IT. I NAILED THE DYNO AND THE POCKET BUT IT TURNS OUT THERE WAS STILL SOME ICE IN THE MONO FROM THE WINTER SEASON SO I SLIPPED RIGHT OFF. I FELL DOWN TO MY FIRST RURP, POP, SECOND RURP, POP, AND SO ON AND SO ON. ALL IN ALL I FELL ABOUT 325 FEET, RIPPING 42 PIECES OF PRO INCLUDING 29 RURP’S, TWO HOOKS TAPED TO THE WALL, 7 WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE’S, AND AN ASSORTMENT OF OTHER MICRO GEAR.
NOW SACK UP AND KEEP IT MANLY!
(This post was edited by thenose on Feb 8, 2010, 11:09 AM)
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airscape
Feb 8, 2010, 12:27 PM
Post #102 of 108
(3754 views)
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Registered: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4240
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I'M NOT READING THAT!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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epoch
Moderator
Feb 8, 2010, 2:21 PM
Post #103 of 108
(3740 views)
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Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
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Caps lock = Cruise control?
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camhead
Feb 9, 2010, 5:20 PM
Post #104 of 108
(3702 views)
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Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
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thenose wrote: STOP BEING A BUNCH OF PUSSYS AND MAN UP. CHECK THIS SHIT OUT. SO THE OTHER DAY I WAS ON EL CAP DOING A HALF DAY PUSH / FIRST ACCENT OF “BLOW ME YOU GAY SPORT CLIMBER, VI A5 (R/X)”. MY PARTNER AND I WERE LINKING PITCHES WITH AN 80M ROPE. I WAS ON PITCH 34, ABOUT 250 FEET OUT. THIS WAS THE CRUX PITCH. IT WAS A BIT DANGEROUS BUT I AM NOT A PUSSY LIKE YOU TOOLS SO I WAS ABLE TO HANDLE IT. RIGHT OUT OF THE BELAY STATION YOU HAVE TO FIFI HOOK YOUR ASS UP ABOUT 50 FEET BEFORE YOU GET THE FIRST PIECE IN. THEN YOU CAN GET IN A WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE. THE NEXT 100 FEET MAINLY INVOLVE SOME 5.14 FREE CLIMBING WITH RURP’S FOR PRO. THEN ONCE YOU HIT THE 200 FOOT MARK YOU GET TO A NICE MONO YOU CAN HANG OFF AND REST ON. AT THAT POINT YOU POUND IN ONE RURP, ONE PICKER AND YOU CAN DUCK TAPE ONE CLIFFHANGER TO THE WALL ON A MICRO CRIMP AND THEN YOU GO FOR IT. THE NEXT 80 FEET HIT YOU HARD… OVER THE NEXT 80 FEET YOU HAVE A FLARING, 2 MM DEEP BOTTOMING CRACK AND NOT A THING MORE. ALL YOU CAN DO IS POUND RURP AFTER RURP IN THE CRACK AND HOPE THEY HOLD. FOR A MOMENT I GOT A BIT SCARED BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY GET THE RURP’S IN ABOUT 3 MM BUT THEN I THOUGHT OF ALL THE PUSSY 5.12 SPORT CLIMBERS OUT THERE AND I INSTANTLY FELT BETTER. AFTER ABOUT 70 FEET OF NOTHING BUT RURP’S I HIT A SECTION OF 5.14C/D WHICH INVOLVED AN 8 FOOT DYNO OFF OF MY AIDER ATTACHED TO A SPECTRE ICE PITON HANGING ON A FLARING CRIMP TO A BOTTOMING MONO POCKET ON A ROOF. I YELLED DOWN TO MY BELAYER REQUESTING SLACK AND I WENT FOR IT. I NAILED THE DYNO AND THE POCKET BUT IT TURNS OUT THERE WAS STILL SOME ICE IN THE MONO FROM THE WINTER SEASON SO I SLIPPED RIGHT OFF. I FELL DOWN TO MY FIRST RURP, POP, SECOND RURP, POP, AND SO ON AND SO ON. ALL IN ALL I FELL ABOUT 325 FEET, RIPPING 42 PIECES OF PRO INCLUDING 29 RURP’S, TWO HOOKS TAPED TO THE WALL, 7 WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE’S, AND AN ASSORTMENT OF OTHER MICRO GEAR. NOW SACK UP AND KEEP IT MANLY!
You are no Burt Bronson. Burt Bronson would not have fallen.
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alpenweg
Feb 11, 2010, 7:15 AM
Post #105 of 108
(3667 views)
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Registered: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 204
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you pitched on the pillar in j.t.?
wow man how did it come out?
ernest
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guangzhou
Feb 15, 2010, 8:56 AM
Post #106 of 108
(3607 views)
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Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
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In reply to: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
Can't be zero, I don't boulder much and achieve the grade. Boudelring is normally something I do at he end of the day is I happen to walk by something that looks kool.
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mar_leclerc
Feb 15, 2010, 5:42 PM
Post #107 of 108
(3577 views)
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Registered: Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 156
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thenose wrote: STOP BEING A BUNCH OF PUSSYS AND MAN UP. CHECK THIS SHIT OUT. SO THE OTHER DAY I WAS ON EL CAP DOING A HALF DAY PUSH / FIRST ACCENT OF “BLOW ME YOU GAY SPORT CLIMBER, VI A5 (R/X)”. MY PARTNER AND I WERE LINKING PITCHES WITH AN 80M ROPE. I WAS ON PITCH 34, ABOUT 250 FEET OUT. THIS WAS THE CRUX PITCH. IT WAS A BIT DANGEROUS BUT I AM NOT A PUSSY LIKE YOU TOOLS SO I WAS ABLE TO HANDLE IT. RIGHT OUT OF THE BELAY STATION YOU HAVE TO FIFI HOOK YOUR ASS UP ABOUT 50 FEET BEFORE YOU GET THE FIRST PIECE IN. THEN YOU CAN GET IN A WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE. THE NEXT 100 FEET MAINLY INVOLVE SOME 5.14 FREE CLIMBING WITH RURP’S FOR PRO. THEN ONCE YOU HIT THE 200 FOOT MARK YOU GET TO A NICE MONO YOU CAN HANG OFF AND REST ON. AT THAT POINT YOU POUND IN ONE RURP, ONE PICKER AND YOU CAN DUCK TAPE ONE CLIFFHANGER TO THE WALL ON A MICRO CRIMP AND THEN YOU GO FOR IT. THE NEXT 80 FEET HIT YOU HARD… OVER THE NEXT 80 FEET YOU HAVE A FLARING, 2 MM DEEP BOTTOMING CRACK AND NOT A THING MORE. ALL YOU CAN DO IS POUND RURP AFTER RURP IN THE CRACK AND HOPE THEY HOLD. FOR A MOMENT I GOT A BIT SCARED BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY GET THE RURP’S IN ABOUT 3 MM BUT THEN I THOUGHT OF ALL THE PUSSY 5.12 SPORT CLIMBERS OUT THERE AND I INSTANTLY FELT BETTER. AFTER ABOUT 70 FEET OF NOTHING BUT RURP’S I HIT A SECTION OF 5.14C/D WHICH INVOLVED AN 8 FOOT DYNO OFF OF MY AIDER ATTACHED TO A SPECTRE ICE PITON HANGING ON A FLARING CRIMP TO A BOTTOMING MONO POCKET ON A ROOF. I YELLED DOWN TO MY BELAYER REQUESTING SLACK AND I WENT FOR IT. I NAILED THE DYNO AND THE POCKET BUT IT TURNS OUT THERE WAS STILL SOME ICE IN THE MONO FROM THE WINTER SEASON SO I SLIPPED RIGHT OFF. I FELL DOWN TO MY FIRST RURP, POP, SECOND RURP, POP, AND SO ON AND SO ON. ALL IN ALL I FELL ABOUT 325 FEET, RIPPING 42 PIECES OF PRO INCLUDING 29 RURP’S, TWO HOOKS TAPED TO THE WALL, 7 WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE’S, AND AN ASSORTMENT OF OTHER MICRO GEAR. NOW SACK UP AND KEEP IT MANLY!
Good story... but fifi hooks arent actually used on the rock, just on your daisy. But ten again you are so hardcore that you probably used fif hooks for direct aid anyways. I am in awe of your badassness.
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guangzhou
Mar 1, 2010, 6:59 AM
Post #108 of 108
(3483 views)
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Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
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mar_leclerc wrote: thenose wrote: STOP BEING A BUNCH OF PUSSYS AND MAN UP. CHECK THIS SHIT OUT. SO THE OTHER DAY I WAS ON EL CAP DOING A HALF DAY PUSH / FIRST ACCENT OF “BLOW ME YOU GAY SPORT CLIMBER, VI A5 (R/X)”. MY PARTNER AND I WERE LINKING PITCHES WITH AN 80M ROPE. I WAS ON PITCH 34, ABOUT 250 FEET OUT. THIS WAS THE CRUX PITCH. IT WAS A BIT DANGEROUS BUT I AM NOT A PUSSY LIKE YOU TOOLS SO I WAS ABLE TO HANDLE IT. RIGHT OUT OF THE BELAY STATION YOU HAVE TO FIFI HOOK YOUR ASS UP ABOUT 50 FEET BEFORE YOU GET THE FIRST PIECE IN. THEN YOU CAN GET IN A WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE. THE NEXT 100 FEET MAINLY INVOLVE SOME 5.14 FREE CLIMBING WITH RURP’S FOR PRO. THEN ONCE YOU HIT THE 200 FOOT MARK YOU GET TO A NICE MONO YOU CAN HANG OFF AND REST ON. AT THAT POINT YOU POUND IN ONE RURP, ONE PICKER AND YOU CAN DUCK TAPE ONE CLIFFHANGER TO THE WALL ON A MICRO CRIMP AND THEN YOU GO FOR IT. THE NEXT 80 FEET HIT YOU HARD… OVER THE NEXT 80 FEET YOU HAVE A FLARING, 2 MM DEEP BOTTOMING CRACK AND NOT A THING MORE. ALL YOU CAN DO IS POUND RURP AFTER RURP IN THE CRACK AND HOPE THEY HOLD. FOR A MOMENT I GOT A BIT SCARED BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY GET THE RURP’S IN ABOUT 3 MM BUT THEN I THOUGHT OF ALL THE PUSSY 5.12 SPORT CLIMBERS OUT THERE AND I INSTANTLY FELT BETTER. AFTER ABOUT 70 FEET OF NOTHING BUT RURP’S I HIT A SECTION OF 5.14C/D WHICH INVOLVED AN 8 FOOT DYNO OFF OF MY AIDER ATTACHED TO A SPECTRE ICE PITON HANGING ON A FLARING CRIMP TO A BOTTOMING MONO POCKET ON A ROOF. I YELLED DOWN TO MY BELAYER REQUESTING SLACK AND I WENT FOR IT. I NAILED THE DYNO AND THE POCKET BUT IT TURNS OUT THERE WAS STILL SOME ICE IN THE MONO FROM THE WINTER SEASON SO I SLIPPED RIGHT OFF. I FELL DOWN TO MY FIRST RURP, POP, SECOND RURP, POP, AND SO ON AND SO ON. ALL IN ALL I FELL ABOUT 325 FEET, RIPPING 42 PIECES OF PRO INCLUDING 29 RURP’S, TWO HOOKS TAPED TO THE WALL, 7 WILD COUNTRY ZERO NUMBER ONE’S, AND AN ASSORTMENT OF OTHER MICRO GEAR. NOW SACK UP AND KEEP IT MANLY! Good story... but fifi hooks arent actually used on the rock, just on your daisy. But ten again you are so hardcore that you probably used fif hooks for direct aid anyways. I am in awe of your badassness.
Actually, fifi hooks can be used on rocks pretty well. Not what they are most often used for, but ...
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