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moose_droppings
Nov 23, 2009, 11:19 PM
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Yeah, like the glob that ate Pittsburg, one of the nicer globs
edit: Or the glob that ate PTFTW
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 23, 2009, 11:20 PM)
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mikebarter387
Nov 24, 2009, 12:05 AM
Post #77 of 177
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healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. Sorry wrong answer, guess again. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool. Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit. You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you! Actually it doesn't, particularly given I not only don't have "the wrong answer", but I didn't have to read any posts at all or "come up" with the correct one - that you're either hopelessly clueless about bowlines, or you just delight in spewing garbage. It always amazes me when folks deem themselves 'experts' and take to the air proseltizing with flat-out inaccurate statements and conclusions.
I hear you! That urban cowboy guy bugs me also.
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 12:18 AM
Post #78 of 177
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Oh, I get it now; you're a guide and you're marketing. Cool, but maybe stick with real facts instead of bad opinion, and ease up on the pablum.
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phillygoat
Nov 24, 2009, 12:55 AM
Post #79 of 177
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Careful, Joe- he lifts weights!
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snoboy
Nov 24, 2009, 12:57 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Having a back-up on any knot tied as a retrace is a standard when rescue is taught.
First I've heard of it. I guess 'standards' aren't so standard really...
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mikebarter387
Nov 24, 2009, 1:34 AM
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healyje wrote: Oh, I get it now; you're a guide and you're marketing. Cool, but maybe stick with real facts instead of bad opinion, and ease up on the pablum.
If I did that I wouldn't be a guide anymore I'd be a ..a...Urban Cowboy!
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subantz
Nov 24, 2009, 1:56 AM
Post #82 of 177
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Chicky you need some lovin. I life without lovin is a bitter place.
Mikey makes videos. I like Mikeys Videos. Mikey make more videos.
Healye simple suggestion. Craigslist Casual encounters.
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 2:02 AM
Post #83 of 177
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Dude, I think you're mistaking art for reality when it comes to 'chicky'. I have no doubt you'd like Mikey vids regardless of how well anchored they are.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 24, 2009, 2:10 AM
Post #84 of 177
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Y'all crack me up.
As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts.
I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning.
So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html
I don't care if y'all use safeties, hell I don't care if you even tie in properly, just don't fall on your belayer...
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hafilax
Nov 24, 2009, 2:16 AM
Post #85 of 177
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Y'all crack me up. As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts. I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning. So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html I don't care if y'all use safeties, hell I don't care if you even tie in properly, just don't fall on your belayer...
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milesenoell
Nov 24, 2009, 2:18 AM
Post #86 of 177
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moose_droppings wrote: acorneau wrote: altelis wrote: I've heard of people using the bowline on a bight as a way to equalize two pieces when creating an anchor with the rope....any body know about this? Absolutely. In John Long's books they call it the "atomic clip" when used on two bolts. I used it as a trad anchor last September in the Wichita's. (Sorry, no picture.) Edit: found someone's RC.com pic: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...lay_setup_38320.html [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/162391-largest_38320.jpg[/image] I've used bunny ears (double figure 8 loop) to equalize 2 points. Bunny Ears.
+1 for bunny ears. I love that knot.
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johnwesely
Nov 24, 2009, 2:22 AM
Post #87 of 177
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hafilax wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: Y'all crack me up. As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts. I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning. So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html I don't care if y'all use safeties, hell I don't care if you even tie in properly, just don't fall on your belayer... Rote learning will only get you so far.
Yeah, for climbers, it is more helpful to use rope learning.
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altelis
Nov 24, 2009, 3:12 AM
Post #89 of 177
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moose_droppings wrote: Yeah, like the glob that ate Pittsburg, one of the nicer globs edit: Or the glob that ate PTFTW
edited PTFTW for the FAIL!
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subantz
Nov 24, 2009, 3:39 AM
Post #90 of 177
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You confuse me woman.
Mikes videos are entertaining.
You and me have different opinions. Thats cool we can be a item you are to smart for me. Wait a minute you could be my Suga mama couger chicky...
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moose_droppings
Nov 24, 2009, 3:57 AM
Post #91 of 177
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altelis wrote: moose_droppings wrote: Yeah, like the glob that ate Pittsburg, one of the nicer globs edit: Or the glob that ate PTFTW edited PTFTW for the FAIL!
DaMN, busted.
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 5:33 AM
Post #92 of 177
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Clearly been sucking at that stone tit too long, but then the other infant in the picture looks like he got all the brains in the family.
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airscape
Nov 24, 2009, 6:08 AM
Post #93 of 177
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Mikebarter has lesbians living next door and he shaves with a katana... nuff said.
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knudenoggin
Nov 24, 2009, 6:41 AM
Post #94 of 177
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: More experienced climbers than {I} have decked because they got distracted and didn't finish a retrace, and it either wasn't checked by the partner or it looked o.k....
Really? Where are the (unfortunate) reports of this?
(There was some echoed myth about Lynn Hill doing this;
her book directly contradicts that, though -- but rumors circulated
with Net-speed & breadth can be hard to chase down and squash.
"Dyneema skinny slings cut through themselves..." anyone?)-:
Also, in some instances, one might get away without completing
a Fig.8, if one has made even just one tuck, maybe, and certainly
if two are made.
In reply to: Having a back-up on any knot tied as a retrace is a standard when rescue is taught.
But that bespeaks of the mindset of SAR types. Against which, one
of their number, sorta (caver also), Bruce Smith, has just this back-up
stipulation as one of his "Myths" (www.OnRope1.com ... MythBusters).
There is prudence in uniform behavior; but there is also a stifling of
innovation and a frustration in dealing across parochial boundaries.
As for "all of those ... " books, et cetera, the points above apply,
and beyond this one can find appalling nonsense that appears in books
and is echoed by new authors w/o critical examination, and then they
are quoted, and ... Trvth By Consensus emerges!
(Man, Lipke's little 4x6 2nd is going for $30??! Heck, I'm pretty sure
it was more like half that for the Rev'd ed. I got.)
- - - - - - - -
To the "checking that a bowline is properly tied is hard" opinions,
eh, a lot must have to do with unfamiliarity, for it's a pretty brief
knot. Another thing though is the face (side) of that knot that
is typically presented -- it should be the other side: one should be
viewing the knot such that the mainline is entering it by crossing UNDER
the "round the tree" collar; all the interesting stuff that one might
do in simple extensions to secure it are best seen from this perspective.
But usually it's shown from the opposite side, alas.
*kN*
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jt512
Nov 24, 2009, 6:46 AM
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subantz wrote: You confuse me woman. Mikes videos are entertaining. You and me have different opinions. Thats cool we can be a item you are to smart for me. Wait a minute you could be my Suga mama couger chicky...
*plonk*
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yanqui
Nov 24, 2009, 11:45 AM
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healyje wrote: Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit.
I'm getting so old here I may be repeating myself (I think I might have told this story before). It's not supposed to be an indictment against the bowline, just a true story.
Anyways about 15 to 20 years ago I did five or six grade IV routes in the Windrivers with a good friend, Mike from Ogden, who preferred the bowline. When we climbed the West Face of Mt. Sacajawea, we ended up doing a new line somewhat to the left of the orginal route. I lead up a nice 5.8 dihedral on pitch five (or was it pitch four?) that finished on a foot wide ledge, where I set up a good belay. The next pitch was harder and belonged to Mike. He started out the ledge, which narrowed, went right and then suddenly petered out. Above this loomed a bulgy, slightly overhanging face, maybe 5.10, with some bomber pro about 15 feet up in a solid detached flake and more steep face climbing above. Anyways, as Mike was getting ready to launch up the face from the end of the ledge he casually looked down at his harness and ... (I should mention the rope was brand new and there had been some groveling lower down on the route) well ... his knot had come untied. I was one of those THANK GOD moments. Mike retied (another bowline, I suppose) and finished the pitch like a pro.
My other experience with the bowline comes from my idiotic youth. I used to like to use ... I suppose ... "the bowline on a bight" to toprope (though I'm not even sure I could tie it now). Instead of using a harness, me and some of my crazy buddies would rap a few coils of rope around our waists and finish it of with this bowline. I guess I thought it was pretty "minimalist" and "hardcore". It hurt like hell when we fell and made it virtually impossible to hangdog to work moves. What can I say? We were young and completely insane.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 24, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Wow...a knot that is easier to untie after a whipper, may actually work it's way loose and untie...weird....
There have been some really good posts in this thread, unfortunately it's the interwebz and some folks are more powerful and smarter when giving advice from behind a keyboard.
The web, and this forum, are places to start when looking for information....just don't trust your life to only that. Some folks may even post up with sarcasm...also weird.
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 1:25 PM
Post #99 of 177
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yanqui wrote: Instead of using a harness, me and some of my crazy buddies would rap a few coils of rope around our waists and finish it of with this bowline. I guess I thought it was pretty "minimalist" and "hardcore". It hurt like hell when we fell and made it virtually impossible to hangdog to work moves. What can I say? We were young and completely insane.
That's hilarious.
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 1:30 PM
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I use bowline and fig 8 both, need depending. I don't care for all these stargazer reweaves though.... its the cordelette principle and I don't buy it. Ever increasing complexity to feed the gear whore urge for folks who are afraid of simplicity.
I have gone back to using mostly cloves hitches on my anchors too. .
DMT
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