WTF were they using for an anchor.

One bolt in supposedly poor rock.

There was a thread on this already but I can't find it with the magnificent search function. Sorry.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

... they are going to close off the whole cave instead of trying a recovery.

Unfortunately, many rescue ops are run by the governmental agencies whose jurisdiction they happen to fall under. When this involves technical climbing or knowledge, these locals will forsake intelligence in favor of who has shown up for the latest training exercise.

Think of your local fire department. They will take anyone as a volunteer or even paid employee if they are fanatic. This does not make them qualified. Shit, I know multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

estimated 5,000 cavers who cavort in the cavern each year.

For more than four decades after its discovery in 1960, the cave was open to any and all comers,

[closed...reopened]safety equipment was required, and the entrance was gated and locked to control access

Grotto running the show, the cave was never safer, or, as it turned out, more deadly. Jones was Nutty Putty's first victim

This is true. Being a volunteer firefighter, i get to see what the standard is for rope rescue training. Pretty lacking all around. The equipment used by a lot of these departments is pretty old as well. Lots of ancient gear... They are all still sporting figure eight belay devices, rappel racks, and ascenders from the middle ages. I think that most fd's would be able to execute an easier vertical rescue... it just might take them a couple days to get their shit together.

We're talking about an incident in a locale where there are excellent, highly trained high angle and cave SAR units.

multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I'm surprised that we express no concern over a resource with that sort of utilization being closed after one death. It is a tragic accident, and made more horrifying by his almost rescue. But, should the cave be shut down?

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

Hi everyone. Bonny and I spent all day yesterday at this rescue now turned recovery. As you can tell from the news, it was a frustrating, emotionally taxing ordeal for all involved.

I am not an official spokesperson for the rescue, nor a member of the command team, so my comments should be taken just as the impressions of one of the team members.

I was in the cave for about 12 hours yesterday as part of the effort. There were many ups and downs, a lot of heroic effort, and much determination. I would like to commend the sherriffs, fire teams, and county SAR for working so well with the cavers that were there. Cavers were recognized as vital, integral members of the team. Only small cavers could actually get near John. He got himself into a truly horrible situation, and not even everyone's best effort was enough to free him.

The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.

While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us.

Thanks Marc, that is one of the comments that I was referring to. I am amazed at the lack of decency here when it comes to making judgments. Instead of talking shit, go out and do this work yourselves. At least the energy you expend will be in a positive direction.

I am tired of judgmental idiots, doing nothing to better the world, complaining of work done by others, usually volunteer and skilled, as being insufficient or poor. I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. Instead of complain, do. Train others to do. Give instead of take. If you have no skill, carry in food or water to those that do.

I know thread drift, and expecting a little too much from the crew that won't even search a little before commenting. Rant over.

Bob

We're talking about an incident in a locale where there are excellent, highly trained high angle and cave SAR units.

Then why did this guy die?

I think I read something about 1370 volunteer hours involved in this rescue, and yet he still perished. Tragic.

I mean, did not one person during this time span question the single mank anchor (which failed) or anticipate the consequences of such?

I challenge you to show me just how all of these thousands of volunteer hours were spent. I wager that a few blessed souls worked their arses off, and the bulk of the "participants" showed up after hearing a scanner call, milled around, and are now bragging that they "did their best."

The sad truth is that those people did.

Then why did this guy die?
...
I mean, did not one person during this time span question the single mank anchor (which failed) or anticipate the consequences of such?

Then why did this guy die?

I think I read something about 1370 volunteer hours involved in this rescue, and yet he still perished. Tragic.

I mean, did not one person during this time span question the single mank anchor (which failed) or anticipate the consequences of such?

I challenge you to show me just how all of these thousands of volunteer hours were spent. I wager that a few blessed souls worked their arses off, and the bulk of the "participants" showed up after hearing a scanner call, milled around, and are now bragging that they "did their best."

The sad truth is that those people did.

then why did this guy die?

I'm surprised that we express no concern over a resource with that sort of utilization being closed after one death. It is a tragic accident, and made more horrifying by his almost rescue. But, should the cave be shut down?

Lori wrote
on November 30, 2009 at 10:21pm
John's sad and tragic death points to the price many have paid to pursue the love of adventure. Closing the cave is inconsistent with that love and only adds to the tragedy. We don't close Mt Everest or K2 because climbers climb past victims of adventure whose bodies are unrecoverable. We don't close the Black Boxes of the San Rafael River, the thousands of slot canyons, the white-water creeks, the snowy backcountries, etc, but we do warn adventurers of dangers.

I believe it's possible to recover John's body. It will desiccate, shrink, and become lighter. It should be possible for experts to estimate the time when the body releases itself from its surroundings. If lines are attached to the body now, anchoring it from further slippage, the cave can remain closed until the body becomes recoverable. After recovery, the cave could be re-opened.

In this way, John's body is protected and recovered, the Jones family has closure, the cave is made available again, the caving community is better educated, and the adventure through NuttyPutty could become a type of commemoration to John.

Dave wrote
on December 2, 2009 at 11:46am
Sure, let's close Nutty Putty Cave, and every other cave where somebody has died. While we're at it, let's close every canyon, trail, cliff, lake and beach where someone has died too! For good measure, we should ensure that all roads, bridges and freeways where somebody has died are shut down, blown up, barricaded and destroyed so that no one else will be in peril. Autos, trains, planes, horses and any other mode of transportation that has killed someone should be outlawed, for that matter, I know somebody that died just walking down the street, let's outlaw that too. Hey, we might as well all just stay home in bed for fear that we might die if we step outside the house! That probably won't work either, what if the house collapses on us. That's it, get rid of all man made structures too! Just how far do we have to go to show how ridiculous closing off a cave is just because a mistake was made and somebody died? My respect to the family of John Jones.

This is true. Being a volunteer firefighter, i get to see what the standard is for rope rescue training. Pretty lacking all around. The equipment used by a lot of these departments is pretty old as well. Lots of ancient gear... They are all still sporting figure eight belay devices, rappel racks, and ascenders from the middle ages.

have these items really changed over the years?? unless they are completely worn out what is wrong with using them? does a figure eight from the middle ages work any different than a brand-new shiny one?

Some folks have already touched upon many points that negate the criticism of the rescue at Nutty Putty. I addressed many of the same criticisms over on Supertopo.

However, as a caver since 1975 with experience exploring and mapping the longest cave systems in the world, and a participant in several cave rescues, I'd like to add a few notes.

1) The people participating in the rescue at Nutty Putty cave were members of the National Cave Rescue Comission (NCRC). These men and women go through many hours of training in cave rescues and are available to fly anywhere in the world to conduct such rescues. They are cavers. They are not local firefighters and EMTs without cave rescue experience. By all accounts, at this rescue, the local emergency agencies recognized the expertise of the NCRC personnel and left the in-cave rescue to them.

2) Unless you have been in a body sized-or near body-sized passage, in the cold, wet, mud, unable to move your arms more than a few inches, you have no idea how hard it might be to place a bolt, even with a power drill. Add in the time factor involved with needing to remove an incapacitated person before hypothermia or chest/breathing issues set in, the fact that several rebelays were required to get the haul system from the main anchor to the victim, and you soon see that by the time you placed two bolts at each rebelay the trapped person would be dead. You place as good an anchor as you can and move on because there is a pressing need to remove the trapped caver.

3) As far as Majid's comment about cavers never going headfirst, I call bullshit. Ridiculous statement. That being said, an experienced caver will be very cautious about proceeding head first down a tight, downward sloping passage, especially one with which the caver is unfamiliar (as was the case here).

4) The rescuers did an amazing job just getting to the trapped caver, rigging a haul system, and moving him several feet. 99 percent of adults in the world would not have had the experience, skill, and cojones to reach the victim and manage this. I gaurantee at least 90 % of the people reading this message would have panicked long before they even got close to Mr. Jones or would be too large to fit; the passage he was in is that small and daunting.

5) The cave is owned by a private entity and access was controlled by a volunteer group with caving experience who "managed" the cave. Although I do not agree with the decision, the owners chose to close the cave. I am not aware of any environmental regulations that prevent the closure, assuming there are no State- or Federal- listed threatened or endangered species documented from the cave. There are several applicable regulations if the cave was on Federal property.

Tim S