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bill413
Apr 16, 2010, 2:26 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: I think that you should always wait for the other climber to ask before giving out verbal beta but what about actually doing the route and giving them visual beta? I have had several situations where someone new to a problem will have several attempts at it and get stuck. These were all problems that I understood how to do the moves on. Is it bad Etiquette to climb the route and give the other climber visual beta before they figure it out for themselves or ask for help? In each of those instances I just waited for the climber to get the move on their own or ask for Beta before I showed them. However, I wondered if that was really necessary?
Totally depends on the pattern of the group, and why you, yourself are doing the problem.
In some groups, it's the standard for people to step in & give the same problem a go while someone else is resting between tries. Other places, the problem can sort of belong to one person until they finish their attempts.
And, the other part is are you doing the problem because you want to do it, or because you want to show up the person who can't.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 16, 2010, 3:12 PM
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bill413 wrote: Totally depends on the pattern of the group, and why you, yourself are doing the problem. In some groups, it's the standard for people to step in & give the same problem a go while someone else is resting between tries. Other places, the problem can sort of belong to one person until they finish their attempts. And, the other part is are you doing the problem because you want to do it, or because you want to show up the person who can't.
In all but one of the cases I was describing it was because I wanted to try the route for myself.
I had one instance where it was a problem that I had completed because someone else had given me beta at my request. Another guy was struggling on the move and was visibly frustrated.
I said to him "What have you tried so far?". He told me the various moves and so I did the route as he was waiting for his next turn? The beta was unsolicited but he immediately got the problem after the beta and did not seem upset at the extra help.
Looking back on it I wouldn't do the same thing again even though my intent was just to help a fellow climber suceed.
I now realize that the best practice is to only give beta when it is specifically requested. That insures that you don't give anyone any advice that doesn't want it.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 16, 2010, 3:14 PM)
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cracklover
Apr 16, 2010, 4:07 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Another guy was struggling on the move and was visibly frustrated. I said to him "What have you tried so far?". He told me the various moves and so I did the route as he was waiting for his next turn? The beta was unsolicited but he immediately got the problem after the beta and did not seem upset at the extra help. Looking back on it I wouldn't do the same thing again even though my intent was just to help a fellow climber suceed. I now realize that the best practice is to only give beta when it is specifically requested. That insures that you don't give anyone any advice that doesn't want it.
You're on the right track, but it doesn't have to be black and white. If I see someone's clearly frustrated, that's a good cue to ask if they want beta.
GO
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 16, 2010, 4:56 PM
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cracklover wrote: You're on the right track, but it doesn't have to be black and white. If I see someone's clearly frustrated, that's a good cue to ask if they want beta. GO
I agree with you. However, I feel like even asking if they want help can appear to be presumptuous. No matter how you phrase it. It sounds like you are saying "Hey, you aren't going to figure that problem out on your own so let me show you how".
I figure that if someone is too proud or determined to ask for help then being humbled by trying to figure out that tricky V1 might actually be good for them.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 16, 2010, 4:57 PM)
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milesenoell
Apr 16, 2010, 4:56 PM
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I think you are making good points: there are a lot of variables, and simply offering one's advice (as opposed to just giving it) is rarely taken badly.
Additionally, I find that unsolicited beta is sort of associated with beginners anyway. Those who have been climbing long enough to have the best beta rarely foist it on others who don't show an interest.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 16, 2010, 5:07 PM
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What about people who ask for beta before they try the problem? Do you typically give them the beta or do you say "Not sure, let me see what you have tried so far and we can figure it out from there"?
I suspect there will be differing opinions on this. However, I like to see people at least give the problem an honest attempt before they look for help.
I haven't seen this a lot in adults. However, the younger kids usually do this because they are usually too concerned with flashing the problem instead of just figuring it out.
I usually tell them I don't know what they can do until I see someone their height attempt the problem.
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cracklover
Apr 16, 2010, 5:23 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: You're on the right track, but it doesn't have to be black and white. If I see someone's clearly frustrated, that's a good cue to ask if they want beta. GO I agree with you. However, I feel like even asking if they want help can appear to be presumptuous. No matter how you phrase it. It sounds like you are saying "Hey, you aren't going to figure that problem out on your own so let me show you how".
Must be something about the way you come across. Me, I either get a grateful "Yeah, this is sooo frustrating!" (most of the time) or a gracious "No thanks" (some of the time).
Maybe the problem is that you're acting as an authority figure to kids, and you come across as judgmental simply because of the role you play?
JasonsDrivingForce wrote: What about people who ask for beta before they try the problem? Do you typically give them the beta or do you say "Not sure, let me see what you have tried so far and we can figure it out from there"? I suspect there will be differing opinions on this. However, I like to see people at least give the problem an honest attempt before they look for help. I haven't seen this a lot in adults. However, the younger kids usually do this because they are usually too concerned with flashing the problem instead of just figuring it out. I usually tell them I don't know what they can do until I see someone their height attempt the problem.
That sounds like a good approach. For adults, if they ask for beta, and I know my beta is good - I'll give it to them whether they've done the problem or not. Who am I to tell them they *should* enjoy the process of figuring stuff out in the same way I should. Besides, some folks (including me at times) may simply be bouldering as physical training, and not give a damn about the problem, as such.
GO
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hafilax
Apr 16, 2010, 5:23 PM
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At the gym a couple of weeks ago I gave a problem a go and failed pretty quickly. A guy hopped on in, finished it and then looked straight at me. I don't know if he intended to give me the "See, THAT'S how it's done!" or if he was looking for some kind of reaction like I should be impressed or something. Maybe I was just being thin skinned.
It's hard to not step on any egos in the climbing gym since there are a limited number of problems and even fewer good ones so it's not like everyone can have their project to themselves. Just chat and be friendly and if the topic turns to beta then go with it.
I have friends that spew beta like their trying to put out a fire and I have to constantly remind them to keep it to themselves. I get pretty cranky at unwanted beta but try to not let it ruin my day. It's usually done with good intentions.
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cracklover
Apr 16, 2010, 5:25 PM
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milesenoell wrote: I think you are making good points: there are a lot of variables, and simply offering one's advice (as opposed to just giving it) is rarely taken badly. Additionally, I find that unsolicited beta is sort of associated with beginners anyway. Those who have been climbing long enough to have the best beta rarely foist it on others who don't show an interest.
Agreed. Unless I've seen the person climb, and can judge their competence, I always assume any unsolicited beta is garbage.
GO
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kriso9tails
Apr 16, 2010, 5:27 PM
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Never got why this was such a complicated issue. If someone is on a problem, I let them focus. I don't say anything, save for perhaps a bit of encouragement if it fits the mood. In part I consider it etiquette, but largely, it's just not my business. The climber was content to try the route/ problem before my magnificent, mind-blowing, life-altering beta was available, so I have to assume that they're content just to continue under their own power and ability.
On the ground, I have a super sophisticated, ultra refined, elaborate way of determining if someone wants beta. "Did you want some additional beta on that, or are you happier without?"
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dingus
Apr 16, 2010, 5:32 PM
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I've given beta when I shouldn't. I've received it when I didn't want it.
I've given it when asked and have asked for it and received.
In a small circle of friends it can become normal over the course of time to give beta freely.
Then a noob, trained in this small group dynamic, goes around happily doling out all they have learned.
Its all good. Lots of nobs > journeymen here on this site give beta freely, on nearly a daily basis, without bother to ask or wait to be invited.
I think there is a lot of 'I'm pissed because I was trained to be pissed' emo bullshit attached to this topic.
If you're in a gym and get upset about unsolicited beta, TOO FUCKING BAD.
DMT
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kriso9tails
Apr 16, 2010, 5:40 PM
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dingus wrote: I think there is a lot of 'I'm pissed because I was trained to be pissed' emo bullshit attached to this topic.
I couldn't get the emo hairstyle done right, so I opted for the teenage angst. Would you like to see the poems I've written about this? They're very angsty... just let me dig out my diary.
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dingus
Apr 16, 2010, 7:34 PM
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No!
No No!
That's quite all right. Of I'll send you a few chapters from my teenage daughters' archives....
DMT
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karmiclimber
Apr 16, 2010, 7:35 PM
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YES! Read the one about pancakes. Pretty please?!?!
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shoo
Apr 16, 2010, 7:49 PM
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dingus wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: dingus wrote: I STILL can't do the move! DMT That's because you ignored my unsolicited beta, old man!  No buddy, I didn't... that was the PINT! DMT
Perhaps you should drink less.
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dingus
Apr 16, 2010, 7:51 PM
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shoo wrote: dingus wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: dingus wrote: I STILL can't do the move! DMT That's because you ignored my unsolicited beta, old man! No buddy, I didn't... that was the PINT! DMT Perhaps you should drink less.
No I should drink MORE.
DMT
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jt512
Apr 16, 2010, 8:38 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: You're on the right track, but it doesn't have to be black and white. If I see someone's clearly frustrated, that's a good cue to ask if they want beta. GO I agree with you. However, I feel like even asking if they want help can appear to be presumptuous.
Hand wring much?
Jay
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Gmburns2000
Apr 16, 2010, 9:15 PM
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Personally, I don't mind beta. I don't always want it, but most of the time I don't care if someone tells me about a hidden hold or something. I don't climb to figure out the problems. Getting to the top of a route without falling is often good enough for me.
What frustrates me with beta is when one person's climbing style doesn't mesh with mine. For instance, I don't do big, bouldery moves well. So "just lunge for it!" doesn't work for me as much as, "hey, you're missing a foot behind you," does.
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crazyluck
Apr 20, 2010, 1:29 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: What frustrates me with beta is when one person's climbing style doesn't mesh with mine.
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guangzhou
Apr 20, 2010, 1:47 AM
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Overall, I prefer to solve the route for myself. When someone offers beta, I just let them know I am not interested and want to figure out the moves myself.
While climbing in Thailand last September, my wife and I adopted stray climbers. One was American, the other was living in Singapore, but I don't remember where he was from. Both climbed in our range.
The later loved to share beta prior to routes. We'd arrive at the wall and he wold tell us about this crux that crux and how to do them. When I was tying in to do a cool looking route, he came up and before he could open his mouth, I asked him to not tell me anything about the line. Not the name, not the grade, not the moves. jumped on with no clue what the route was.
About half way up, I got out of sequence, but with a dozen extra moves managed to on-sight the route anyways. I was pumped and disappointed that I had missed a key hidden hold.
When I was lowered to the ground, the guy from Singapore went on and on about how his beta would have helped me figure out the route quicker. How I would be less tired and pumped. He was actually upset that I didn't want his help while climbing.
He told my wife that I should just have fallen and rested instead of trying to figure out the sequence without hanging. An hour later, two other climbers came up and he decided to climb with them.
When he walk over, he told them that I refuse his beta. That I wold climb harder if I would just take his advice. They came and got on the same route I had done, he took the first lead and hung four times. My wife and the American just winked at me, we packed up, and headed for massage before an evening of more climbing.
Personally, I avoid beta in general. They are a couple of projects I have where I watch my partner and we share information to help each other out. Mostly on hard (For us) first ascents.
I rarely come across a climber who will still share the beta is ask him not too. While I'm climbing, if the route is hard for me, I normally don;t hear what people are shouting or yelling, I'm to focused on what I'm doing.
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chrisJoosse
Apr 20, 2010, 2:17 AM
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nmak wrote: Hi, I've been climbing for a couple of months, but I'm trying to figure out when it's right to offer help or suggestions when climbing. I was climbing a difficult bouldering route the other day, and was pretty annoyed when someone told me how to do it when I couldn't get it. I like being able to figure out problems on my own, and I only really offer help to others if they ask for it, or if they're completely lost. Is there a correct way to give advice? Or is it common to just throw around advice, and I'm just being uptight about it. Thanks!
Probably the best approach to giving advice that I've found is to ask permission to give it. This honors the preference of those who want to figure out problems by themselves, and lets those who would like feedback or beta know that it's available.
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bennydh
Apr 20, 2010, 4:06 AM
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dingus wrote: I've received it when I didn't want it. I've given it when asked and have asked for it and received. In a small circle of friends it can become normal over the course of time... ...unsolicited... ...FUCKING... DMT
Quoted, for unsolicited future use... bwahahahaha
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guangzhou
Apr 21, 2010, 1:08 AM
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bennydh wrote: dingus wrote: I've received it when I didn't want it. I've given it when asked and have asked for it and received. In a small circle of friends it can become normal over the course of time... ...unsolicited... ...FUCKING... DMT Quoted, for unsolicited future use... bwahahahaha
Very true Dingus. Notice that some climber talk more about climbing versus actually going climbing. I have four partners here who rather go watch a local climbing comp then climb this weekend.
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dingus
Apr 21, 2010, 1:27 AM
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"Climbing would be great if it weren't for all that damn climbing."
Hehe
DMT
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olderic
Apr 21, 2010, 1:34 AM
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bennydh wrote: dingus wrote: I've received it when I didn't want it. I've given it when asked and have asked for it and received. In a small circle of friends it can become normal over the course of time... ...unsolicited... ...FUCKING... DMT Quoted, for unsolicited future use... bwahahahaha
oh oh. Those are his. IP - his (endless) profound insights into life, the universe and all that are his - and his alone - you don't have a right to them. watch out or he might fire one of his aw-shucks-its-just-little-me soliloquies at you...
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