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cush
Apr 23, 2010, 4:35 AM
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i was top roping with a friend today and to get to the anchor to dismantle the system we had to prusik up the hanging rope(2 prusiks. one for your harness, one for your feet). as i was about 10 feet off the ground my partner commented on how i must really trust that prusik seeing as it was my only piece protecting me. i realized he was absolutely right but this is the way i was taught to prusik and the same way i've seen many other people do it as well. is it just me or does this seem like a gross oversight on climber's parts or is there something i'm missing that makes prusiking safe and negate the need for a 2nd piece of gear holding you?
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west_by_god_virginia
Apr 23, 2010, 5:10 AM
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the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant.
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billl7
Apr 23, 2010, 5:22 AM
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cush wrote: i was top roping with a friend today and to get to the anchor to dismantle the system we had to prusik up the hanging rope(2 prusiks. one for your harness, one for your feet). as i was about 10 feet off the ground my partner commented on how i must really trust that prusik seeing as it was my only piece protecting me. i realized he was absolutely right but this is the way i was taught to prusik and the same way i've seen many other people do it as well. is it just me or does this seem like a gross oversight on climber's parts or is there something i'm missing that makes prusiking safe and negate the need for a 2nd piece of gear holding you? The generally accepted practice is to not trust just to the prusik. Instead, periodically grab a bite of the the rope below the bottom prusik, tie an overhand or figure eight, and clip it to your belay loop with a locker. After a bit, do it again with the developing slack but clip it in with a different locker. Continue, alternating lockers as you ascend while releasing knots if needed each time you unlock a locker. How much between clipping into a backup knot? I've always asked myself how far would I be comfortable falling. All that said, I learned to prusik over 30 years ago for self-rescue from a crevasse. Back then, we didn't tie the backup knots but we also didn't carry ANY biners for glacier travel. Bill L
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davidnn5
Apr 23, 2010, 5:25 AM
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cush wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: quit worrying about everything being redundant. this just doesn't make sense to me. please elaborate? He's saying there are certain things that aren't redundant, such as harness, rope - for a reason. It's important to think about each aspect of your safety system, not just use redundancy as a mantra. Two prussiks is already redundant, because if one fails you won't hit the ground. Unless you're working with acid-soaked, old or manky cord, why would you add more clusterfuck to move around when prussiking? If you add enough prussiks you could move as slowly as an aid climber!
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billl7
Apr 23, 2010, 5:27 AM
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With the second prusik going around just the foot, I wouldn't trust it as offering redundancy should the one to the harness fail. If the harness one fails, I'm hoping the foot pops out!
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davidnn5
Apr 23, 2010, 5:45 AM
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That's a fair comment if you are putting all your upper body weight on the harness prussik. But... Don't you prussik up with one hand and the other hand on the rope? Also generally if there's damage to the cord, it won't take multiple pulls on it to break it. The autoblock, prussik etc are friction "knots" - they have no point at which they are more likely to break, because they are not tied (unless you tie a knot to shorten your cord for a prussik). I prefer a bachmann for these purposes. Mostly cause I think they're pretty. Side question: does anyone here routinely use webbing for prussiking? I think it's asking for trouble personally but some I've met seem to be happy to do it.
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sungam
Apr 23, 2010, 9:50 AM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. Damn, you really are stupid as hell, aren't you? Prussiks can, and DO, slide. Particularly when shock loaded. Not to mention that pushing on the top of a prussik will cause it to slide downwards, just as pushing on the bottom slides it up. So guess what? If your lop one slides and touches the top of the bottom one, it's sliding too. Not that that's a likely situation. Tie back up knots every once in a while. This is simply clove-hitching the rope to a beaner clipped to your belay loop so if your prussiks slide you won't take to long a ride.
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bhp
Apr 23, 2010, 10:22 AM
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In reply to: Side question: does anyone here routinely use webbing for prussiking? I think it's asking for trouble personally but some I've met seem to be happy to do it. I use a sling for the foot prusik (actually I use the klemheist for webbing) because it's a lot more comfortable to stand on than 6mm cord (wider area) I also tie the occasional backup, which is really just a precaution against ground-fall in the case of failure of a prusik. Not that I think that it's particularly likely, but I think it's worth it to back it up.
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 23, 2010, 11:08 AM
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What I use for prusiking is one prusik into the harness only, and one prusik tied using a longer piece (not tied into a loop yet) with one strand going to the harness (with some slack so I can still stand on the other strand) and one strand tied into a foot loop. That way, I'm backed up by the second prusik on my harness if the first one fails. Then, I take a single biner and put it into my harness and clip figure eight loops tied in the slack as I go up. I generally don't bother with always keeping one clipped; I'm okay with tying the next knot, then unclipping the last knot, clipping the new one, then untying the last one. I feel like it isn't too great of a risk being reliant only on my prusiks for the few seconds it takes to change knots. Finally, the basic prusik knot is a pain in the butt to ascend with. I much prefer the bachman if extra biners are availiable and the klemheist (not sure if I spelled that right) if not.
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billl7
Apr 23, 2010, 12:29 PM
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davidnn5 wrote: But... Don't you prussik up with one hand and the other hand on the rope? Are you asking how to make upward progress?
davidnn5 wrote: Also generally if there's damage to the cord, it won't take multiple pulls on it to break it. The autoblock, prussik etc are friction "knots" - they have no point at which they are more likely to break, because they are not tied (unless you tie a knot to shorten your cord for a prussik). If they fail, they will fail when it is convenient!?!
davidnn5 wrote: I prefer a bachmann for these purposes. Mostly cause I think they're pretty. Hmmmm ... k. The bachman does have that clearly accessable handle - which to me is also a source of concern. Bill L
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billl7
Apr 23, 2010, 1:38 PM
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: Finally, the basic prusik knot is a pain in the butt to ascend with. It can be. But much of that can be helped with a simple technique: grasp with the fingers around the rope at the base of the prusik with thumb up; use the thumb to press back the end-loop of the prusik (sort of unlocks it, allowing slack into the wraps of the prusik); now push up the prusik. With not much practice, this can go smoothly. But I'll admit, every now and then it takes a little more effort. Bill L
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olderic
Apr 23, 2010, 1:59 PM
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Using backup knots when ascending a rope - prusicks, Bachman's, Climnbeist or ascenders is standard practice and has been for many years. Climbing 101. Like many other things in climbing the practical implementation of it varies with individuals.
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malcolm777b
Apr 23, 2010, 2:46 PM
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cush wrote: i was top roping with a friend today and to get to the anchor to dismantle the system we had to prusik up the hanging rope(2 prusiks. one for your harness, one for your feet). as i was about 10 feet off the ground my partner commented on how i must really trust that prusik seeing as it was my only piece protecting me. i realized he was absolutely right but this is the way i was taught to prusik and the same way i've seen many other people do it as well. is it just me or does this seem like a gross oversight on climber's parts or is there something i'm missing that makes prusiking safe and negate the need for a 2nd piece of gear holding you? Why did you HAVE to prusik to get to the anchor? This seems a little fishy to me....Why couldn't you just climb the route? How did you get to the anchor in the first place? If you were too pumped, why not climb the route, and Batman the rope as necessary to get past cruxes? I've never once seen a situation where someone was forced to ascend the rope to get to the anchor....
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tomtom
Apr 23, 2010, 3:47 PM
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Tie backup knots. Issue solved.
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j_ung
Apr 23, 2010, 4:33 PM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. IMO, a single prussik is one thing that prolly ought to be backed up by something else (other than the prussik your foot's in).
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west_by_god_virginia
Apr 23, 2010, 5:06 PM
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sungam wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. Damn, you really are stupid as hell, aren't you? Prussiks can, and DO, slide. Particularly when shock loaded. Not to mention that pushing on the top of a prussik will cause it to slide downwards, just as pushing on the bottom slides it up. So guess what? If your lop one slides and touches the top of the bottom one, it's sliding too. Not that that's a likely situation. Tie back up knots every once in a while. This is simply clove-hitching the rope to a beaner clipped to your belay loop so if your prussiks slide you won't take to long a ride. whatever sunGAY.
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west_by_god_virginia
Apr 23, 2010, 5:09 PM
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j_ung wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. IMO, a single prussik is one thing that prolly ought to be backed up by something else (other than the prussik your foot's in). why do you think it ought to be backed up? the slide potential, rockfall cutting the cord, single attachment point?
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j_ung
Apr 23, 2010, 5:27 PM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: j_ung wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. IMO, a single prussik is one thing that prolly ought to be backed up by something else (other than the prussik your foot's in). why do you think it ought to be backed up? the slide potential, rockfall cutting the cord, single attachment point? All of the above plus a couple others, but mostly user error.
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csproul
Apr 23, 2010, 5:38 PM
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Those are all pretty good reasons in my book. In fact, I have had a prusik slip. Albeit it was on an icy rope, but it did happen, and it scared me enough to make sure I use back ups in the rare event I ascend a rope with friction hitches of any kind (or mechanical ascenders for that matter). I've not tried it, but I'm guessing that adding a 2nd prusik would not be effective. If one slips, the other will too. Not to mention that it'd take more time and effort to mind a second/third hitch than it would to just clip into a backup knot.
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dancottle
Apr 24, 2010, 12:52 AM
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Other than an icy rope like posted above i see no reason to back up a prussic. Using two is redundant. If the top one slips it will be stopped by the bottom one. If the bottom one slips the top one will hold you. Well now actually I guess if the top one is cut it could be a problem but I going to stick to two for those very rare occasions when I need to prussic.
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edge
Apr 24, 2010, 12:59 AM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: j_ung wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. IMO, a single prussik is one thing that prolly ought to be backed up by something else (other than the prussik your foot's in). why do you think it ought to be backed up? the slide potential, rockfall cutting the cord, single attachment point? Prussiks slide easier than Jumars, and yet it is standard practice to back Jumars or their equivalents up with a knot. If (If'n?)you know what you are doing, then a backup knot takes 5 seconds. One every 25 feet on a pitch would take 40 seconds per 200' ropelength, but the added security usually compensates for lost knot-tying time. Maybe add 2 minutes to untie the knots as you go. Death takes forever to untie.
(This post was edited by edge on Apr 24, 2010, 1:00 AM)
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bill413
Apr 24, 2010, 2:51 AM
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dancottle wrote: Other than an icy rope like posted above i see no reason to back up a prussic. Using two is redundant. If the top one slips it will be stopped by the bottom one. If the bottom one slips the top one will hold you. Well now actually I guess if the top one is cut it could be a problem but I going to stick to two for those very rare occasions when I need to prussic. If you press on the end of the prussik, it opens it a little, making it more likely to slip. So, " If the top one slips it will be stopped by the bottom one" is just not reliable. If the bottom one slips, because you didn't tighten it enough, at the point when you have loosened the top one to move it up, you're in trouble. Once a prussik starts sliding, it can just keep on going. Backing up your ascension system is important, no matter what it is.
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billl7
Apr 24, 2010, 4:21 AM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: whatever sunGAY. Like a flashback to 4th grade.
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shimanilami
Apr 24, 2010, 7:08 AM
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malcolm777b wrote: Why did you HAVE to prusik to get to the anchor? This seems a little fishy to me....Why couldn't you just climb the route...?quote] That's exactly what I was thinking. No matter. Just tie in backup knots every so often to catch you in the unlikely case that a prusik fails.
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sungam
Apr 24, 2010, 9:42 AM
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billl7 wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: whatever sunGAY. Like a flashback to 4th grade. I'm sure that was his aim. Casting his mind back to a time when he could keep up with the discussion, and when he could get away with making shit up when he didn't know what he was talking about. I actually feel sorry for him sometimes - I don't know what I would do with myself if I was that fucking stupid.
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sungam
Apr 24, 2010, 9:45 AM
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dancottle wrote: Other than an icy rope like posted above i see no reason to back up a prussic. Using two is redundant. If the top one slips it will be stopped by the bottom one. If the bottom one slips the top one will hold you. Well now actually I guess if the top one is cut it could be a problem but I going to stick to two for those very rare occasions when I need to prussic. Do you clip into the top one? Most people just run it straight to their foot, so it really wouldn't be a backup. I would understand if people skimped on the backups if it was a huge faff, required some awkward gear, or didn't add that much safety, but it adds a pretty much bomb-proof failsafe, takes seconds to do, and only requires a 50g biner...
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 10:01 AM
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sungam wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. Prussiks can, and DO, slide. Particularly when shock loaded. Damn right they do. I found that one out the hard way. When I was a little kid I was prussiking up a 10.5 mm rope in a tree. Half way up I grabbed on a branch and slipped. I fell at most 4" on the prussik yet it slipped all the way down to my second prussik. Had I not had a second one I would had taken a ride all the way to the ground. Had I not had a second one at all like the OP, I would have hit the ground. Oh, and even with only about 2.5 feet of slippage enough heat built up to melt through 30% of the top prussik cord. OP: If your going to use prussiks to ascend a fixed line you must tie them in a configuration so you are supported by both of them. There is an extremely good illustration on how to do this in the book Climbing Self-Rescue: Improvising Solutions for Serious Situations. I highly recommend you read it. You can read it here: http://books.google.com/...ge&q&f=false Look on page 110 of the book. It shows you how to ascend using prussiks safely.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 24, 2010, 10:17 AM)
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sethg
Apr 24, 2010, 12:28 PM
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I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think?
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cush
Apr 24, 2010, 12:48 PM
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we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up.
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 1:12 PM
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sethg wrote: I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think? When I rappell with an autoblock I do regularly let go and rely on the autoblock for friction so I can use two hands to clean pieces or rap across a traverse. However the truth is if the autoblock suddenly started slipping and you started falling, it would be difficult to regain control. However in my experience the autoblocks generally do not start slipping under a static load once they are locked. Not to say that they can’t, just that I have never seen it. From what I have seen once they lock they will remain locked unless an object comes into contact with it and changes its form, (e.g. you grab it) or the load is suddenly increased (e.g. you take a fall well rapping for some reason). If you are uncomfortable with it and think the autoblock may slip you can use a prussic instead. Using a prussic will make it a bit more difficult to rappel but they are more secure and provide more friction. Another option is when you come to a point where you need to let go of the rope, wrap the rope around your right leg five times and close your legs. Wrap the rope as far up your leg and closest to the belay device as possible. This will provide enough friction to allow you to let go of the rope regardless if you have an autoblock or not. However take care to keep your legs together so the rope does not unwrap from your leg by accident well your working.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 24, 2010, 1:17 PM)
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sherpa79
Apr 24, 2010, 4:48 PM
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Climbing on two knots is perfectly safe. Just run a sling or something from your harness to the footloop prussik. Now you have two prussiks and no change in the rhythm of your climbing. Back up knots have their place, but I find them unecessary most of the time. If you have 2 points on the rope you don't need to interrupt your climbing to tie back up knots, plus it cuts down on the cluster. Of course this is in a straightforward scenario. No passing pieces or rebelays and such. Also, I think it's perfectly safe to use your rappel backup knot to go hands free. Just like climbing on knots though its safe only if the knot is tied right and of the appropriate length. I think this is the real heart of the issue here, not whether or not prussiks are safe.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 24, 2010, 5:05 PM
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sethg wrote: I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think? even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance).
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sungam
Apr 24, 2010, 5:20 PM
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sherpa79 wrote: Now you have two prussiks and no change in the rhythm of your climbing. How damn, you get in a rhythm when prussiking? I'm like a prussiking gumby compared to you, bro. I find them all awkward and slow and stuffs. Just one more note, I figure I should toss this around there. If you decide to go without the back-ups, make sure if you come to a lip or bulge or anything where the rope wants to touch the rock that you toss a backup knot in. Funky pushing on the knot can make it slide.
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altelis
Apr 24, 2010, 5:43 PM
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sethg wrote: I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think? I know you got a few responses already, but I thought I'd add in some subtlety to the answer. It depends But really mainly on one thing: is the prussik/autoblock above or below the belay device. If its above the device it is taking all the load and if it should slip there is nothing really else that can help stop you. If its below, its not really taking any weight but rather its actually holding the brake strand in such a way as to ensure the belay device is still holding you. Make sense? This may (or may not) change how you view taking your hand off the rope with an autoblock. I actually am of the personal belief that more often than not its safer to NOT use an autoblock. So when stopping while rapelling I almost always rely on the leg wrap or a mule-knot, depending on what I am trying to get accomplished. Does that mean I never use an autoblock? Of course not. It just means that more often than not when I am rappelling it is when I really am not concerned about rock fall (so probably haven't been wearing a helmet either, gawd forbid....)
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sherpa79
Apr 24, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance). Really? That seems awful time consuming to me. Just curious, do you back up a Gri-gri or other type of device when using it for rappelling or cleaning? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems strange to me that people are so concerned with backups when doing a relatively static activity, like ascending a rope or rapping, but don't feel the same kind of need for it when belaying a leader or other activities which are far more dynamic. Not that I'm advocating using a backup on belay. I think it's important for a belay device to be simple. Much of the safety in a belay is in the belayer's ability to be versatile, at least in my opinion. I usually go by the general rule that you should back up what you can when you can so long as it doesn't interfere with the overall smoothness of the operation. Multiple backups I generally view as not only unecessary, but as an interference, and hence as something that takes away from the overall safety of the activity. Clusters are unsafe. Good technique will keep you out of most clusters, and in my mind....safer. I don't mean this to sound pedantic or anything, I really am just curious. I participate in a few activities at height both recreationally and professionally and the different mindsets that prevail in each of the activities and their origins is something I'm interested in. Ideas about what is "safe" and such.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 25, 2010, 5:30 AM
Post #37 of 52
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sherpa79 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance). Really? That seems awful time consuming to me. Just curious, do you back up a Gri-gri or other type of device when using it for rappelling or cleaning? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems strange to me that people are so concerned with backups when doing a relatively static activity, like ascending a rope or rapping, but don't feel the same kind of need for it when belaying a leader or other activities which are far more dynamic. Not that I'm advocating using a backup on belay. I think it's important for a belay device to be simple. Much of the safety in a belay is in the belayer's ability to be versatile, at least in my opinion. I usually go by the general rule that you should back up what you can when you can so long as it doesn't interfere with the overall smoothness of the operation. Multiple backups I generally view as not only unecessary, but as an interference, and hence as something that takes away from the overall safety of the activity. Clusters are unsafe. Good technique will keep you out of most clusters, and in my mind....safer. I don't mean this to sound pedantic or anything, I really am just curious. I participate in a few activities at height both recreationally and professionally and the different mindsets that prevail in each of the activities and their origins is something I'm interested in. Ideas about what is "safe" and such. I'm a little neurotic when it comes to rappelling. in fact, for me, it is the scariest part of climbing. I just like knowing that the back up is still a back up when I take my hands off the rope. In other words: - when my hands are on the rope I control the rope and my back up is a back up. - when I let go of the rope, the leg wraps or the fireman's are controlling the rope and my back up is a back up - when I let go of the rope without a leg wrap or a fireman's, my back up is no longer a back up.
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sherpa79
Apr 25, 2010, 3:54 PM
Post #38 of 52
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Gmburns2000 wrote: sherpa79 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance). Really? That seems awful time consuming to me. Just curious, do you back up a Gri-gri or other type of device when using it for rappelling or cleaning? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems strange to me that people are so concerned with backups when doing a relatively static activity, like ascending a rope or rapping, but don't feel the same kind of need for it when belaying a leader or other activities which are far more dynamic. Not that I'm advocating using a backup on belay. I think it's important for a belay device to be simple. Much of the safety in a belay is in the belayer's ability to be versatile, at least in my opinion. I usually go by the general rule that you should back up what you can when you can so long as it doesn't interfere with the overall smoothness of the operation. Multiple backups I generally view as not only unecessary, but as an interference, and hence as something that takes away from the overall safety of the activity. Clusters are unsafe. Good technique will keep you out of most clusters, and in my mind....safer. I don't mean this to sound pedantic or anything, I really am just curious. I participate in a few activities at height both recreationally and professionally and the different mindsets that prevail in each of the activities and their origins is something I'm interested in. Ideas about what is "safe" and such. I'm a little neurotic when it comes to rappelling. in fact, for me, it is the scariest part of climbing. I just like knowing that the back up is still a back up when I take my hands off the rope. In other words: - when my hands are on the rope I control the rope and my back up is a back up. - when I let go of the rope, the leg wraps or the fireman's are controlling the rope and my back up is a back up - when I let go of the rope without a leg wrap or a fireman's, my back up is no longer a back up. Fair enough. Your logic is sound. I was thinking about it a little yesterday, about the lack of "redundancy" when belaying. But in the end, the climber is the first point of protection. If the climber doesn't fall you may go the entire route without ever weighting your belay device. Belay is a "backup" However, in rappelling, you are using your device 100% of the time, so a back up is of course worth it. You know what else is better than not backing up a rappell? Mexican food. I'm just sayin'.
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jmeizis
Apr 25, 2010, 4:21 PM
Post #39 of 52
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If you take an AMGA/PCIA/PCGI instructor course you will fail if you suspend yourself or a client from a single friction hitch. They always need to be backed up with another friction hitch, a hard knot, or a blocked belay device. I'd imagine rope rescue courses have a similar standard. If you have a gri-gri it presents an easy back up when ascending a rope. You can also use the many other ideas presented here. Really though just think about it. Your entire body weight is suspended off something smaller than the diameter of a single climbing rope and the only thing keeping it in place is some friction. Didn't somebody already mention how nylon has a pretty low melting point. Not as low as spectra, but still pretty low. It's not sensible to trust your life to such a flimsy piece of gear when it is so easy to back yourself up.
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coolcat83
Apr 25, 2010, 4:29 PM
Post #40 of 52
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cush wrote: we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up. Allamuchy?
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sherpa79
Apr 25, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #41 of 52
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jmeizis wrote: If you take an AMGA/PCIA/PCGI instructor course you will fail if you suspend yourself or a client from a single friction hitch. They always need to be backed up with another friction hitch, a hard knot, or a blocked belay device. I'd imagine rope rescue courses have a similar standard. If you have a gri-gri it presents an easy back up when ascending a rope. You can also use the many other ideas presented here. Really though just think about it. Your entire body weight is suspended off something smaller than the diameter of a single climbing rope and the only thing keeping it in place is some friction. Didn't somebody already mention how nylon has a pretty low melting point. Not as low as spectra, but still pretty low. It's not sensible to trust your life to such a flimsy piece of gear when it is so easy to back yourself up. This is exactly what I'm interested in. The ISA (international society of arboriculture) hosts climbing competitions a part of which is ariel rescue. It is routine to use just a single prussik (or other grabber knot) to support yourself while ascending or descending from a tree. I believe it may even be permissable with another person on the line, but I'd have to double check that. It may not be. Our cords are typically bigger than most of the back up prussiks climbers use, but still. A single point is a single point. I personally have put more than a two person load on a single grabber knot it a slightly dynamic situation without consequence. In fact it saved my life. I "know" they will hold and my actions reflect this. However, when climbing a rope or working from one (especially with a saw) I always have two points. Descending is a mix. Sometimes one, sometimes two. Whatever the situation calls for. Like I said, it's something I think about a lot.
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jt512
Apr 25, 2010, 6:51 PM
Post #42 of 52
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sherpa79 wrote: The ISA (international society of arboriculture) hosts climbing competitions a part of which is ariel rescue. Does the winner get to keep the little mermaid? Jay
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cush
Apr 25, 2010, 7:42 PM
Post #43 of 52
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coolcat83 wrote: cush wrote: we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up. Allamuchy? no, it was at a smaller, local area in north NJ. how is allumuchy though? never been.
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jmeizis
Apr 25, 2010, 10:22 PM
Post #44 of 52
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Generaly if I'm doing something where I'm unlikely to fall, say building an anchor near a cliff edge or traversing a fixed line on something 4th class then I would just use one. The friction hitch is the backup to me not falling. If someone is hanging on the wall, midair or whatever they're always backed up with something besides one friction hitch, usually it's a blocked belay device.
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sherpa79
Apr 25, 2010, 11:19 PM
Post #45 of 52
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jt512 wrote: sherpa79 wrote: The ISA (international society of arboriculture) hosts climbing competitions a part of which is ariel rescue. Does the winner get to keep the little mermaid? Jay Yep. Jealous much? Next time I'll spell check for you, mmmk sweetheart?
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coolcat83
Apr 26, 2010, 12:04 AM
Post #46 of 52
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cush wrote: coolcat83 wrote: cush wrote: we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up. Allamuchy? no, it was at a smaller, local area in north NJ. how is allumuchy though? never been. It's nice, several walls to choose from, a few easy leads if you want and some decent slab (5.6-5.12). it's pretty easy to set up on too. take the 4th class approach to the left of the main wall to setup and you can avoid going all the way up the mountain and rapping down (which i thought was what you were talking about). the other walls are super easy to set up on with easily accessed trees and features. PM me if you want more info.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 26, 2010, 12:46 AM
Post #47 of 52
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How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum?
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Gmburns2000
Apr 26, 2010, 12:55 AM
Post #48 of 52
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blueeyedclimber wrote: How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum? I don't know, how does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum?
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 26, 2010, 12:33 PM
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j_ung wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum? Well, it's too late now. Every time a mod moves a thread God carves a notch into a puppy. I wasn't requesting a move, especially not at the expense of a puppy. Not only is this a top roping thread, however, but he is requesting beta on something that is totally unnecessary. You cannot tell me that with a top rope set up, that prussiking is the best solution. Anyway, if they have ANY locking belay device, whether it's a grigri or reverso/guide type, it would be easier to use that, and have one prussik for the foot loop. Josh
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cush
Apr 27, 2010, 2:26 AM
Post #51 of 52
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blueeyedclimber wrote: j_ung wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum? Well, it's too late now. Every time a mod moves a thread God carves a notch into a puppy. I wasn't requesting a move, especially not at the expense of a puppy. Not only is this a top roping thread, however, but he is requesting beta on something that is totally unnecessary. You cannot tell me that with a top rope set up, that prussiking is the best solution. Anyway, if they have ANY locking belay device, whether it's a grigri or reverso/guide type, it would be easier to use that, and have one prussik for the foot loop. Josh a top roping thread it may be, but prusiking is a skill every trad climber should know.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 27, 2010, 12:32 PM
Post #52 of 52
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cush wrote: a top roping thread it may be, but prusiking is a skill every trad climber should know. fixt.
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