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guyzo
May 3, 2010, 11:15 PM
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This is just a note to Gentle Ben, and his wife. And to Eric Wolfe and his GF skippy. All others should take a second and think about new roots and squeeze jobs. Good job, your quest for new roots and Fame have brought our beloved Echo Cliffs to the attention of the NPS. Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman. What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. I spoke with the MAN this am and the removal had nothing to do with litter. The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants. For the first time in my life I agree with the NPS. They did the correct thing IMHO. So maybe next time you want to do a new root you may wish to consider some things. Things like "will this be a good root?" or "am I destroying something of value". You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it. We are very lucky to have good rangers in the Santa Monica Mts. They are climbers, they know all about the place, they took out your gear. This time we didn't get a knee jerk reaction to just close the place down. Next time we (the climbing community) might not be so fortunate. Guy Keesee
(This post was edited by guyzo on May 3, 2010, 11:22 PM)
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redlude97
May 3, 2010, 11:25 PM
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route.
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patmay81
May 4, 2010, 12:01 AM
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guyzo wrote: The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants. wouldn't this cause the destruction of plants? I'd say put the roots back and hope they grow into something.
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moose_droppings
May 4, 2010, 12:28 AM
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guyzo wrote: This is just a note to Gentle Ben, and his wife. And to Eric Wolfe and his GF skippy. All others should take a second and think about new roots and squeeze jobs. Good job, your quest for new roots and Fame have brought our beloved Echo Cliffs to the attention of the NPS. Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman. What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. I spoke with the MAN this am and the removal had nothing to do with litter. The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants. For the first time in my life I agree with the NPS. They did the correct thing IMHO. So maybe next time you want to do a new root you may wish to consider some things. Things like "will this be a good root?" or "am I destroying something of value". You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it. We are very lucky to have good rangers in the Santa Monica Mts. They are climbers, they know all about the place, they took out your gear. This time we didn't get a knee jerk reaction to just close the place down. Next time we (the climbing community) might not be so fortunate. Guy Keesee
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sidepull
May 4, 2010, 12:35 AM
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I was wondering if there was some sort of e e cummings styled deeper meaning to using "root" or it was just interweb troll-dom.
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jt512
May 4, 2010, 1:20 AM
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guyzo wrote: This is just a note to Gentle Ben, and his wife. And to Eric Wolfe and his GF skippy. All others should take a second and think about new roots and squeeze jobs. Good job, your quest for new roots and Fame have brought our beloved Echo Cliffs to the attention of the NPS. Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman. What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. I spoke with the MAN this am and the removal had nothing to do with litter. The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants. For the first time in my life I agree with the NPS. They did the correct thing IMHO. So maybe next time you want to do a new root you may wish to consider some things. Things like "will this be a good root?" or "am I destroying something of value". You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it. We are very lucky to have good rangers in the Santa Monica Mts. They are climbers, they know all about the place, they took out your gear. This time we didn't get a knee jerk reaction to just close the place down. Next time we (the climbing community) might not be so fortunate. Guy Keesee I was worried that something like this was going to happen. The area was once closed due to excessive noise. We're lucky to have it. The area most certainly does not need a plethora of generic 5.9s. We've lost Williamson. We can't afford to lose another major sport climbing destination. Let's stop the bolting there already. Which routes were taken out? Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 4, 2010, 1:32 AM)
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foodgeek
May 4, 2010, 2:47 AM
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jt512 wrote: guyzo wrote: ...the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman... ...Which routes were taken out? Jay I'm going to guess Mystic River and Bunnyman.
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guyzo
May 4, 2010, 3:04 PM
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Route = a climb Root = male anatomy. As in: Look at my "root"- isn't it nice? or "Please go and DO my root."
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billcoe_
May 4, 2010, 3:38 PM
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You guys need to be doing some serious one on one and group talks IMO.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on May 4, 2010, 3:51 PM)
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dugl33
May 4, 2010, 3:54 PM
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I for one thought mystic river was a good route (if I'm picturing the right one). Certainly not a squeeze job as it was the only route on a stand alone formation. Seems like it was the longest route in the grotto, too. I thought the development work was a bit more heavy handed down at easy street. I haven't been out there in a while (4 or 5 months) so maybe more recent work is causing probs?
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bennydh
May 4, 2010, 6:25 PM
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WTF is the point of an FA if no one will ever be able to access your route afterward? Egos? ... idiots
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socalbolter
May 4, 2010, 7:26 PM
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For the record, I've been in contact with Ben about this. He was down in the Grotto when the rangers were there and volunteered to remove the routes in question. There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and "Puffing Hunchback." The signs went up after the bolt removal. I hope this serves as a good reminder to all who use the area that we are being watched, and we need to respect the wishes of those who so graciously allow us to enjoy the area. Please do your part to keep the area clean. Thanks! - Louie
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majid_sabet
May 4, 2010, 7:33 PM
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bolt every 3 feet sound like a sport climbing. is that right ?
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j_ung
May 4, 2010, 7:59 PM
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socalbolter wrote: For the record, I've been in contact with Ben about this. He was down in the Grotto when the rangers were there and volunteered to remove the routes in question. There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and "Puffing Hunchback." The signs went up after the bolt removal. I hope this serves as a good reminder to all who use the area that we are being watched, and we need to respect the wishes of those who so graciously allow us to enjoy the area. Please do your part to keep the area clean. Thanks! - Louie Emphasis mine. Sounds like the problem's been solved.
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socalbolter
May 4, 2010, 8:02 PM
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While I haven't climbed regularly at Echo for years, I would be extremely sad to see us lose the privilege of climbing there. Let this be a lesson to all of us (regardless of where we climb) to be good area stewards and to make sure that any interaction with non-climbers and land managers is viewed as a positive one. The future of this area and many others rests squarely in our own hands.
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socalbolter
May 5, 2010, 7:23 PM
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Just got off the phone with the Head Ranger for the Santa Monica Mountains office of the NPS. He called me regarding this issue as he and I had worked together to secure climber access at Echo Cliffs back in the beginning stages of its development. He is a very reasonable person and operates with a pro-climbing stance, as long as NPS concerns and restrictions are met with and respected. He relayed the series of events to me as they occurred to date (much of which has been discussed here and elsewhere online already). The gist of it is that there were routes added in The Grotto whose development either included removal of mosses and other vegetation, or locations with close proximity to the endangered Marcescent dudleya plant. He did mention that he and other NPS officials ran into Ben Chapman and that he walked with them and was very respectful and volunteered to remove the bolts from the routes in question. There are currently temporary signs in place at these sections of cliff, and permanent signage is being made now. These signs will designate sections of cliff that are closed to all climbing activities. These signs will be installed by volunteer climbers, working directly with him. The sections of cliff that will be closed to climbing are the cliffs on both sides of The Grotto as follows: Upstream walls from the arete of Game Boy on the south side of the creek. Upstream walls from Xanadu on the north side of the creek. All other Grotto routes are fine and will remain open for climbing, as will the remainder of Echo Cliffs. As mentioned before, we should feel fortunate that we have NPS officials in this area that are willing to work with climbers. We should also (all of us) re-commit ourselves to keeping our climbing areas clean and abiding by whatever few limitations have been placed on us. Specific to Echo, please remember: No trash left behind. No dogs at the crag. No fires. No overnight camping at the crag or parking areas. No cross-country travel. No climbing in closed areas. Thank you one and all - enjoy yourselves out there, and be safe. - Louie
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guyzo
May 5, 2010, 7:49 PM
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Louie. Thank you for the info and the update. I reckon if you need to use a GIANT WIRE BRUSH, a Saw, and a CROWBAR to prep your new one, some people might object to you and your climbs. Talking nicely and looking for some restraint didn't do a darn thing. It took the NPS to step in for this person to stop putting down climbs. We are so lucky we are not shut out, like at Willie. And just like Willie, it's easy to close down but it's almost imposable to get it reopened after it gets on the radar. Guy Keesee
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j_ung
May 5, 2010, 7:55 PM
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Of course I'm not there and haven't the first clue... but your version sure does sound a lot more sinister than Louie's.
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guyzo
May 6, 2010, 6:38 PM
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To BillCoe, Tried to have one on one talk many times... was told to go f-myself. (and I was nice too) In other parts of our nation, serious damage might have been done to vehicles. I believe in peace and understanding. It all good now that the routes have been removed. Any idea how long it will be till the moss and flowers grow back?? late
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tyler
May 6, 2010, 7:11 PM
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guyzo wrote: You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it. Well said.
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edge
May 6, 2010, 7:15 PM
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socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal.
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jt512
May 6, 2010, 7:44 PM
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edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay
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csproul
May 6, 2010, 7:53 PM
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edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] ..and, yes, it is that chossy.
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edge
May 7, 2010, 1:50 PM
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jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym.
(This post was edited by edge on May 7, 2010, 1:59 PM)
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jt512
May 7, 2010, 5:14 PM
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edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym. Edge, there are on the order of 1500 bolts at Echo Cliffs. The NPS obviously was not reacting to the ~8 bolts on this route. They were reacting to the presence of an endangered plant species near the route. Jay
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jcrew
May 7, 2010, 6:21 PM
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guyzo wrote: What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. Guy Keesee this thread is good....got me thinking about semi-experienced climbers trying to add new lines at established areas where seasoned bolters have already done their thing.... it seems like new first ascentionists should maybe find their own areas.
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edge
May 7, 2010, 9:01 PM
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jt512 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym. Edge, there are on the order of 1500 bolts at Echo Cliffs. The NPS obviously was not reacting to the ~8 bolts on this route. They were reacting to the presence of an endangered plant species near the route. Jay I understand that, Jay, I read the thread. Still, if the area has so many bolts, why did the bolters in question scrub away plants, lichen, and (I imagine) loose holds to create multiple routes that are being removed? Eight bolts on this one route, but there were 4 or 5 mentioned. Let me see if I can do the math.... 32-40 bolts? If they hadn't been stopped, would these bolters have squeezed in a few more forgettable gems? They were treating it like a gym, and for lack of all weather duct tape threw in metal. I am not against sport climbing areas, just against the idea that "if those people did it and got their name in a guidebook, then I can do it and get props in the next issue," all to the cliff's loss.
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dingus
May 7, 2010, 9:22 PM
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bennydh wrote: WTF is the point of an FA if no one will ever be able to access your route afterward? Egos? ... idiots What is the purpose of calling them idiots? Ego? DMT
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kovacs69
May 7, 2010, 9:23 PM
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jcrew wrote: guyzo wrote: What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. Guy Keesee this thread is good....got me thinking about semi-experienced climbers trying to add new lines at established areas where seasoned bolters have already done their thing.... it seems like new first ascentionists should maybe find their own areas. That's what I did! Everyone should find there own private area then we wouldn't have this problem. JB
(This post was edited by kovacs69 on May 7, 2010, 9:26 PM)
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jt512
May 7, 2010, 9:33 PM
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edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym. Edge, there are on the order of 1500 bolts at Echo Cliffs. The NPS obviously was not reacting to the ~8 bolts on this route. They were reacting to the presence of an endangered plant species near the route. Jay I understand that, Jay, I read the thread. Still, if the area has so many bolts, why did the bolters in question scrub away plants, lichen, and (I imagine) loose holds to create multiple routes that are being removed? That question doesn't make sense. What does the number of bolts at the crag have to do with why someone would want to put up new routes?
In reply to: If they hadn't been stopped, would these bolters have squeezed in a few more forgettable gems? They haven't been stopped. One part of the crag where they were bolting was closed to climbing because of the presence of an endangered plant species. There is nothing officially preventing them from continuing to develop routes elsewhere at the crag. Personally, I think this would be ill-advised, because I think (as I stated in the ST thread) that additional development will increase the popularity of the crag beyond what the environment, the neighbors, hikers, and possibly the NPS will tolerate.
In reply to: They were treating it like a gym... That's essentially what sport crags are, Edge.
In reply to: I am not against sport climbing areas, just against the idea that "if those people did it and got their name in a guidebook, then I can do it and get props in the next issue," all to the cliff's loss. I don't know if that is their motivation. I'm against developing crags to the point that the number of climbers they attract becomes excessive, and the crag gets closed down. I suspect that Echo is close to that tipping point now. Jay
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bill413
May 7, 2010, 10:23 PM
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edge wrote: They were treating it like a gym, and for lack of all weather duct tape threw in metal. Sig-worthy. I'm sure someone could turn it into a short story!
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 7, 2010, 10:24 PM)
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guyzo
May 8, 2010, 5:21 PM
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bill413 wrote: edge wrote: They were treating it like a gym, and for lack of all weather duct tape threw in metal. Sig-worthy. I'm sure someone could turn it into a short story! Ok we will see about a ending. I owe an apology to Eric Wolfe and Skippy. I don't think you were involved with the "wholesale rock scrubbing" on these climbs. You just spied a "Good line on clean stone" and just went for it. ... I get that. And to Ben and supporters I say this. Some of the climbs you have done in the last year or so are good climbs. I have done a few of them. Just think a little bit before you break out that power drill. Personally I look for Quality before Quantity when doing new climbs. We (local Echo cliff climbers) dodged a big bullet. The NPS could have easily shut the whole place down and an act of congress would have been needed to get it reopened. I think the NPS drew a very clear "line in the sand" for us to use as a gauge of our activities. All of US need to learn a few things and think about just what we need to do to have good relations with our local land managers. I learned this. The next time I see bogus shit going on I promise to "really get in your face, to raise a big ruckus, to make it unpleasant for you to continue destroying our climbing places. I promise" Now back to climbing.
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