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coolcat83
May 12, 2010, 3:51 AM
Post #26 of 78
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I use it for cragging, but for trad the good ol' atc guide is my go to device. the cinch just feeds so much better than a grigri, locks up solidly on all sorts of ropes. I don't think i'd use it for trad lead belaying (would for aiding if i did it often), but for tr and sport where there's going to be a lot of hanging it's nice to have. I've also used it a couple times to belay off top anchors and it worked quite well. it's also great for use in ascending/rap systems on a single line where you are going to be going up and down (like photography), hook it up frog style with a pulley and it's effortless.
i have belayed with atc's of all styles, munter, even practiced a hip belay to know it. i choose what i believe it the right tool for the job.
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 4:10 AM
Post #27 of 78
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robdotcalm wrote: I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing. «Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892) and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath). The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard (25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second. It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing» Cheers, Rob.calm
They also say they can't be used on ropes smaller than 9.7 which is false .. check out sharma taking huge whips on 9.1 ropes on Jumbo for example. my friends use my 9.5 rope all the time with no issues.
People use gri gris and cinches to belay aid climbs all the freaking time.
Also we are talking about the CINCH which slips at a certain KN i forget the exact number but maybe Mal will chime in.
either way folks who have used the Cinch are very fond of it.. it is usually people who just look at it online and are old and fat that think that new technology can't be better than what they've used for 30 years. you and edge seem to be in that category.
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A-Bowl
May 12, 2010, 5:51 AM
Post #28 of 78
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you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:
1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock
2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock
3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key
4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.
Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.
5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..
Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods.
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vegastradguy
May 12, 2010, 6:14 AM
Post #29 of 78
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A-Bowl wrote: you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons: 1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock 2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock 3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key 4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it. Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch. 5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool.. Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods.
if you're using a grigri or cinch because you cant stay focused on belaying, then you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.
if you're using the device because you cannot hold a fall and need the device to do it for you, then again, you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.
and no, the grigri doesnt have a softer catch than the cinch.
finally- regarding using locking assist devices for trad- its all relative, petzl doesnt recommend it for mountaineering or adventure climbing because gear can be suspect and these devices do have a harder catch than tube style device- but standard trade routes with solid gear are just as safe with a cinch or grigri as a bolted route. obviously pick your battles- if i know my partner is gonna be strung out on rp's and shitty cams in flared pockets, then im going to use the tube device- if i even suspect it, i'll use the tube. i always carry both so its no biggie to switch it up if/when necessary.
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A-Bowl
May 12, 2010, 6:29 AM
Post #30 of 78
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In reply to: if you're using a grigri or cinch because you cant stay focused on belaying, then you shouldnt be belaying in the first place. Im not talking about losing focus.. but there are many times when a climber is geting a stance or picking gear when you can take a snap shot or eat some food then time it to put the stuff down and feed rope when necessary... this requires a lot of focus and moments of hands free. In reply to: if you're using the device because you cannot hold a fall and need the device to do it for you, then again, you shouldnt be belaying in the first place. you seriously don't get into rough catches where free hands could save you and your partner some pain... maybe you should push the envelope a little harder I do agree that in situations of suspect gear i sometime opt for the atc myself.... not often... maybe i would more in vegas though... some pretty soft placements there
(This post was edited by A-Bowl on May 12, 2010, 6:34 AM)
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vegastradguy
May 12, 2010, 6:38 AM
Post #31 of 78
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vegastradguy wrote: if you're using a grigri or cinch because you cant stay focused on belaying, then you shouldnt be belaying in the first place. A-bowl wrote: Im not talking about losing focus.. but there are many times when a climber is geting a stance or picking gear when you can take a snap shot or eat some food then time it to put the stuff down and feed rope when necessary... this requires a lot of focus and moments of hands free.
there's no such thing as a hands free moment when you're belaying.
In reply to: if you're using the device because you cannot hold a fall and need the device to do it for you, then again, you shouldnt be belaying in the first place. In reply to: you seriously don't get into rough catches where free hands could save you and your partner some pain... maybe you should push the envelope a little harder
um, not really- i tend to make sure i'm at a solid stance, stable and am prepared to use my non-brake hand if a hand is needed. its called proper belay technique. rough catches are not a by-product of pushing the envelope.
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A-Bowl
May 12, 2010, 6:42 AM
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But why not use two hands... i don't get why you would limit yourself just cuz it is "proper technique" just like saying I only do missionary style cuz it's proper...
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vegastradguy
May 12, 2010, 7:06 AM
Post #33 of 78
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A-Bowl wrote: But why not use two hands... i don't get why you would limit yourself just cuz it is "proper technique" just like saying I only do missionary style cuz it's proper...
because two hands would mean i have to take my brake hand off the rope- which is not an option because i'm belaying. you know, that thing you do when you are responsible for someone elses life?
of course, i cant say ive ever had a situation where i needed to use my hands to keep me away from the wall- and ive caught more than one near factor 2 fall, as rough as it gets. once gain, proper stance and attentive belaying is key.
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jt512
May 12, 2010, 7:23 AM
Post #34 of 78
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currupt4130 wrote: All it takes is a quick yank with either device to tell if it's loaded correctly, something I almost always do to my belayer before I leave the ground. I try and snatch some rope when they aren't looking before I start climbing to make sure I catch them off guard and check if everything is in order.
If you were to try that with me, you'd find yourself off belay in a hurry.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 12, 2010, 7:23 AM)
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jt512
May 12, 2010, 7:31 AM
Post #35 of 78
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jakedatc wrote: edge wrote: currupt4130 wrote: edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' Care to elaborate? Sure. Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics. I don't like that. For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you. I don't like that either. I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user. And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods. And I know Jake can... Loran I bring both Cinch and Reverso. the extra weight of the reverso for rapping and using in certain spots is negligible and i'm ok with that. Cinch is easier to release to give a 2nd slack than a reverso.
You could always stop using the reverso in stupid fucking "guide mode," but that's another thread.
Jay
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jt512
May 12, 2010, 7:40 AM
Post #36 of 78
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jakedatc wrote: robdotcalm wrote: I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing. «Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892) and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath). The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard (25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second. It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing» Cheers, Rob.calm They also say they can't be used on ropes smaller than 9.7 which is false .. check out sharma taking huge whips on 9.1 ropes on Jumbo for example.
A single example does not prove a point. My friend, Jack, decked when his 9.4 slid through the grigri, even though his belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the rope.
In reply to: ...my friends use my 9.5 rope all the time with no issues.
Well, that's better than N=1, but it still fails to prove the point.
Jay
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jt512
May 12, 2010, 8:16 AM
Post #37 of 78
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A-Bowl wrote: you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:
...most of which cause me to question your philosophy of belaying, if not your judgment.
In reply to: 1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock
I actually agree with you that a human belayer cannot pay 100% attention 100% of the time; however, if you can't catch a fall that catches you off guard, using an ATC, then you are not a competent belayer.
In reply to: 2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock
First of all, if you're multi-pitching, you're anchored, so there are no wild swings, etc. Secondly, absorbing the impact with your legs, so that you can maintain control of the belay, is an entry-level belay skill. If you can't do it, you're not competent.
In reply to: 3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key
No, safety is the key. Fuck the photos, and any idiot with two hands can eat a sports bar and safely belay at the same time with an ATC.
In reply to: 4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.
You have a point about the danger of collision between the climber and the belayer; but the higher the fall factor, the more important it is to have a dynamic belay. I know of no fatalities caused by climber–belayer collision, but I know of several anchor failures in high-factor falls, so it seems to me that the latter should be the primary concern.
In reply to: Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.
It's the other way around. You should at least be able to get factual, verifiable information correct.
In reply to: 5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..
Simul-rapping, "guide mode," and other stupid human tricks are well covered in other threads. No point in rehashing them here.
Jay
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yokese
May 12, 2010, 9:39 AM
Post #38 of 78
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I love the Cinch. It has replaced my previous belay device for sport climbing, the Cassin Logic.
I normally use:
For sport and bolted multipitch -> Cinch
For trad (mostly multipitch), single rope -> Stich plate or ABS, although I admit that the ABS is somehow awkward for lowering and I've never tried to rappel with it.
For trad, double rope -> Stich/Gigi (I don't own an ATC Guide or reverso 3... yet)
For fast/easy mountaneering -> Munter
I've never owned a Grigri, but I used this device a handful of times and I always found it difficult to give slack fast (yes, I know, my fault, not the device's fault). With the Cinch, it was much easier from the very first time. HOWEVER, at the beginning I shortroped the climber several times, when he was clipping two very close bolts in a row. I fed slack to clip the first bolt, he clipped, then when I started removing the extra slack he pulled the rope again to clip the second bolt, locking the Cinch. Once locked, the cinch is not very intuitive to unlock when you are not used to it. Once I learned to be more attentive when the climber is near two close-spaced bolts and how to unlock the Cinch fast, this was not an issue anymore.
Next step is gonna be to substitute the Stich/Gigi for a Reverso 3.
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currupt4130
May 12, 2010, 11:51 AM
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I found that the easiest way to unlock the Cinch when that happens is to quickly slide my right hand up just a little bit and push the base of the lowering lever with my thumb. Still holding it correctly, just flip it back open.
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angry
May 12, 2010, 12:18 PM
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For lead belay on good ropes (how it should always be) the Cinch shines. It's awesome in fact. It's fine for single strand rappels too, when I have to do that, I usually simul-rappel.
It's got some definite weaknesses.
If you're belaying a birthday party full of kids, none weighing over 70lbs, the cinch sucks.
If you're using the one ascender one cinch (or grigri) method of jugging a line, the grigri is better.
Even though the cinch will be smoother than an ATC or grigri to lead belay a salty fuzzy rope, the same device sucks on that rope for rappel.
Every tool has a job. It's why your mom has that thing in her drawer and you can still hear her and your dad at night.
I use my grigri to solo lead up a route to start the bolting process or to short fix on a wall. I use the grigri to set routes on the climbing wall. I use the grigri (or atc, whichever is closer) to belay parties. I use the grigri to ascend a rope if the route is overhanging (if it's vertical or less, I use 2 jugs and no grigri but that's a different thread). I use a grigri to rap old ropes.
I use a cinch a to lead belay single pitches and multipitch sport.
It really isn't a question of which is better, while they do carry the capacity to do the same things, in a short time you'll understand the value of having both.
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granite_grrl
May 12, 2010, 12:44 PM
Post #41 of 78
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edge wrote: currupt4130 wrote: edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' Care to elaborate? Sure. Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics. I don't like that. For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you. I don't like that either. I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user. And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods. And I know Jake can...
FWIW - I like using an ATC-guide, but my husband has taken to using a grigri at place like the Gunks. As long as he's the one hauling it up with him, I don't care. He's experienced and has his preferences.
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granite_grrl
May 12, 2010, 12:54 PM
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jt512 wrote: jakedatc wrote: robdotcalm wrote: I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing. «Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892) and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath). The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard (25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second. It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing» Cheers, Rob.calm They also say they can't be used on ropes smaller than 9.7 which is false .. check out sharma taking huge whips on 9.1 ropes on Jumbo for example. A single example does not prove a point. My friend, Jack, decked when his 9.4 slid through the grigri, even though his belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the rope. In reply to: ...my friends use my 9.5 rope all the time with no issues. Well, that's better than N=1, but it still fails to prove the point. Jay
But to each their own I guess though.
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socalclimber
May 12, 2010, 1:07 PM
Post #43 of 78
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"you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:
1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock
2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock
3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key
4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.
Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.
5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..
Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods. "
Jesus the people in place are scary...
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kaizen
May 12, 2010, 2:11 PM
Post #44 of 78
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A-Bowl wrote: you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons: 1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock 2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock 3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key 4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it. Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch. 5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool.. Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods.
While I personally prefer my ATC or Guide for trad, I don't have a problem with someone using the device they are more comfortable with if the placements are bomber.
However, everything else you posted tells me I never want to climb with you.
PS - Edge, why did you move this to Sport Climbing? It should be in Gear.
PPS - For sport and TR, Cinch > Gri Gri
Edit for relevancy.
(This post was edited by kaizen on May 12, 2010, 2:14 PM)
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A-Bowl
May 12, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #45 of 78
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A-Bowl wrote:
you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:
...most of which cause me to question your philosophy of belaying, if not your judgment.
*And im questioning yours
In reply to:
1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock
I actually agree with you that a human belayer cannot pay 100% attention 100% of the time; however, if you can't catch a fall that catches you off guard, using an ATC, then you are not a competent belayer.
*But why would i take that risk? Keep your brake hand on at all times and have the autolock back you up... this seems more safe.
In reply to:
2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock
First of all, if you're multi-pitching, you're anchored, so there are no wild swings, etc. Secondly, absorbing the impact with your legs, so that you can maintain control of the belay, is an entry-level belay skill. If you can't do it, you're not competent.
*Sure.. use your entry level belay skills... but seriously your stance is always that comfortable and stable? What about traversing out pitches that pull you so your body swings brake hand into the wall. Ive used both methods extensively and having someones life depend on keeping your brake hand down and in an awkward position is a result of old school technology. move on
In reply to:
3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key
No, safety is the key. Fuck the photos, and any idiot with two hands can eat a sports bar and safely belay at the same time with an ATC.
*How did i jeapordize safety... remember its an autolock. Seems like eating a bar while using an atc is less safe.
In reply to:
4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.
You have a point about the danger of collision between the climber and the belayer; but the higher the fall factor, the more important it is to have a dynamic belay. I know of no fatalities caused by climber–belayer collision, but I know of several anchor failures in high-factor falls, so it seems to me that the latter should be the primary concern.
*Honestly if i was worried about anchor failure I would make it a more dynamic belay... youre right.
In reply to:
Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.
It's the other way around. You should at least be able to get factual, verifiable information correct.
*sorry... i based that on my personal experience with the cinch... always though it locked up pretty fast and stiffly. Could be wrong.
In reply to:
5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..
Simul-rapping, "guide mode," and other stupid human tricks are well covered in other threads. No point in rehashing them here.
*climbing is based on stupid human tricks... ex: stopping a falling person with friction over a little piece of metal and dependent on the belayer... but thats another thread
abel
A year or two ago i only used tube style but as ive done more and more r rated and difficult trad lines ive moved to the added security of a locking device.
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hafilax
May 12, 2010, 4:28 PM
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AFAIK the cinch is designed to slip at a much lower force than the grigri.
I'm planning on getting one at some point and will use it trad climbing regardless of edge's opinion on the matter.
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cracklover
May 12, 2010, 4:40 PM
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I cannot comment on the gri-gri vs cinch thing, since I don't have enough experience with the cinch.
But on this...
edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you.
I'd agree, with the assumption that we're talking about multi-pitch trad. For single-pitch, a competent belayer can give a soft catch with a gri-gri or cinch if unanchored, so that's fine.
But for multi-pitch trad, I want a belayer who can give a soft catch if appropriate, even if the belay position requires anchoring in tight.
Big wall climbing is a whole different deal.
BTW, on my first wall, when we got to the descent I realized that I hadn't brought a tube-style device for descending. No, it wasn't all that huge a problem to either get lowered, simul-rap, or single-strand rap, but at the end of a long day, it was one little headache that none of us needed.
GO
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Gmburns2000
May 12, 2010, 5:42 PM
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Registered: Mar 6, 2007
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I've used both, though I'm much more proficient with a grigri. I do find that the Cinch feeds a little better than a grigri, but not so much that I'd be willing to fork over more money for something that does essentially the same thing. I find feeding rope with a grigri to be pretty easy.
The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back.
I've used a grigri and a cinch on self-belay when setting routes (i.e. - TR solo) and find the grigri to be much better at lowering than the Cinch, so much so that the ease of lowering with the grigri, for me, outweighs the easier feeding I find with the Cinch. And yes, I find feeding with a grigri in this situation to sometimes be a pain in the ass.
Now, that just may be my lack of experience with the Cinch, but I've found this to be the case with every one I've ever used (for you smart asses out there, that's a fair amount more than once or twice thank you).
However, despite what Mal says, if I'm going to do any solo leading, I'd rather use a Cinch than a modified grigri.
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 5:52 PM
Post #50 of 78
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Registered: Mar 12, 2003
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Gmburns2000 wrote: The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back.
Hmm. i find that lowering folks you, doc and jay's size to be less than half open. folks my size i need to open it more.
as for the pointy handle i put 3 fingers on the handle and my thumb on the pivot and it allows for adjusting how fast it goes through.
i will concede that lowering takes alot more practice than a gri gri since you can't just crank it wide open and treat it like an ATC.. Once you work it out though it's not much different.
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