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CobraNine
May 21, 2010, 1:26 PM
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Hi Climbers:
I am in the process of working on establishing some new bouldering routes and their ratings with a friend, and we've found ourselves to have a few misunderstandings about the Hueco V rating system.
In particular, we're unsure about how the V-system treats difficult beta. For example- consider two problems: One, where the the sequence is blazingly difficult to figure out, and the other where the sequence is very easy to figure out. But once you know the best sequence, the moves on both routes are the same difficulty. How should these be rated- the same, or should the beta be considered into the rating system?
Also: How does the V-scale handle length of a route? 2 moves vs 20 moves, does that get incorporated into the grade?
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bill413
May 21, 2010, 3:39 PM
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CobraNine wrote: Hi Climbers: I am in the process of working on establishing some new bouldering routes and their ratings with a friend, and we've found ourselves to have a few misunderstandings about the Hueco V rating system. In particular, we're unsure about how the V-system treats difficult beta. For example- consider two problems: One, where the the sequence is blazingly difficult to figure out, and the other where the sequence is very easy to figure out. But once you know the best sequence, the moves on both routes are the same difficulty. How should these be rated- the same, or should the beta be considered into the rating system? Also: How does the V-scale handle length of a route? 2 moves vs 20 moves, does that get incorporated into the grade?
Usually, routes/problems are rated by the easiest way to do them.
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jomagam
May 21, 2010, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: 2 moves vs 20 moves, does that get incorporated into the grade?
Yes.
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cracklover
May 21, 2010, 4:52 PM
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CobraNine wrote: For example- consider two problems: One, where the the sequence is blazingly difficult to figure out, and the other where the sequence is very easy to figure out. But once you know the best sequence, the moves on both routes are the same difficulty. How should these be rated- the same, or should the beta be considered into the rating system?
I don't know the answer, but I'm curious to know what Curt et al have to say on the subject.
For trad routes, I always consider the grade to reflect the difficulty of onsighting the route. For sport, the difficulty of redpointing it. But for bouldering, I have no idea.
GO
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styndall
May 21, 2010, 5:36 PM
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From what I've seen, if someone finds some new beta that makes a problem easier, the problem gets downgraded accordingly. This happened with Bum Boy at HP40 - the old pressup method went at V4 or V5, but then someone figured out some kind of backstep pinch beta, and now the thing is a V3.
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mleogrande
May 21, 2010, 7:01 PM
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The rating should be based on the path of least resistance. Whether a climb is hard to figure out doesn't really matter. Climbs do sometimes get downgraded if better beta comes along.
The length of a route may or may not affect the rating. The V-scale considers the sum of all moves in a route. This doesn't mean the more moves there are the higher the rating. I will give one example and you can use your logic to figure the rest out.
Let's say a climb starts with a 5 move sequence equaling V6. Then it finishes with 5 more moves equaling V4. This climb would have a overall rating of only V6. The V4 sequence would have no influence on the rating because someone who can climb V6 should be on cruise control during the V4 portion of this route whether there is more pump or not.
If you climbed a V5 into a V6 sequence, the V6 sequence will be a little more intense. In this example, the overall rating could be V6+ or maybe V7.
I hope this helps.
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i_h8_choss
May 22, 2010, 12:20 AM
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CobraNine wrote: Hi Climbers: I am in the process of working on establishing some new bouldering routes and their ratings with a friend, and we've found ourselves to have a few misunderstandings about the Hueco V rating system. In particular, we're unsure about how the V-system treats difficult beta. For example- consider two problems: One, where the the sequence is blazingly difficult to figure out, and the other where the sequence is very easy to figure out. But once you know the best sequence, the moves on both routes are the same difficulty. How should these be rated- the same, or should the beta be considered into the rating system? Also: How does the V-scale handle length of a route? 2 moves vs 20 moves, does that get incorporated into the grade?
'difficult beta' is when a climber gives you some info./ help on the climb and you cannot do the moves because they are difficult for you. Trying to figure out the moves has nothing to do with the grade.
The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter
The crux or hardest move is what makes the grade.
e.g. If a problem is a bunch of 5.10 moves with a 5.12 crux, it's given V5.
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shockabuku
May 22, 2010, 4:51 AM
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Obviously most of the rest of us are trying to understand it too.
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jt512
May 22, 2010, 5:09 AM
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i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter.
I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong?
Jay
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jbone
May 22, 2010, 9:42 AM
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Side Note: When the Verm initially graded problems in Hueco using the V-Scale, anything V3 or harder was whatever Todd Skinner couldn't do.
From my experience with the V-system, problems are given a grade based solely on how difficult it is to send the problem easily.
If you struggle through a problem you are likely climbing that problem 1 or 2 grades harder than most people do. It is possible to climb a V3 like a V5. It is possible to climb a V10 like its a V8 although nobody is gonna downgrade it cause you got it wired.
If a boulder problem gets too long it loses its bouldering significance. Boulder problems that are longer than 30ft begin to translate to Yosemite grades and the "V" doesn't represent the line as well. Most boulder problems are defined by their hardest set of moves not really by a long sequence of difficult moves which is more suitable to route climbing.
Most of the time you only get to climb the true grade of any problem during your first session on it. After that on most lines you get moves wired and the grade becomes harder to identify with.
Never base your own climbing ability off a few problems. It takes about 50+ problems of each grade before you can really get a sense for a particular grade. Unfortunately most people don't have access to 50+ problems at each grade so there are numerous misinterpretations based on what the locals have exposure to.
Last but not least, when you establish a problem you get to pick the name but the rock gets to pick the grade. Far too many people try to impose their standard on a problem when its truly the other way around. Let the problem get a consensus of at least 5+ people before you start mentioning grades.
If you can do all this you will enjoy establishing problems more than arguing about the grades you think they are every time you talk to others about them.
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i_h8_choss
May 22, 2010, 10:54 AM
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jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay
Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum?
Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. 
Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay.
And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5?
Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5?
R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem.
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mturner
May 22, 2010, 2:29 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote: The amount of moves does not matter The crux or hardest move is what makes the grade. e.g. If a problem is a bunch of 5.10 moves with a 5.12 crux, it's given V5.
While I think that is the definition, in practice that's just not the case. There's many many problems where the crux is a grade or two easier than the grade of the problem but it's given that grade because of length. Many traverses and sit start extensions come to mind.
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PJA7
May 22, 2010, 9:08 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem.
lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard.
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i_h8_choss
May 22, 2010, 9:41 PM
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PJA7 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem. lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard.
So then the first V17 will be something like this.... ?
a V11 overhang into a V13 traverse then a V10 face to a V12 topout. Plus a beanie was worn and it was like, gnar.
The crux is the V13 traverse but if one lacks endurance they could call it a V19.
There is still oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico.
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wallwombat
May 23, 2010, 1:45 AM
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I don't really put V grades on problems that I put up. I use my own grading system which is basically easy, medium, hard and very hard. Then I drag a friend of mine, who is grade obsessed, out to try them and let him whack a V grade on them.
Basically, I don't give a shit about grades. That's not why I boulder.
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hosh
May 23, 2010, 2:55 AM
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V-Fun
V-Can
V-Can't
V-Impossible
That's about as far as I care to use the V-scale.
hosh.
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quiteatingmysteak
May 23, 2010, 3:13 AM
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jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay
LOL!!! OMG!!!
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davidnn5
May 23, 2010, 8:09 AM
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wallwombat wrote: I don't really put V grades on problems that I put up. I use my own grading system which is basically easy, medium, hard and very hard. Then I drag a friend of mine, who is grade obsessed, out to try them and let him whack a V grade on them. Basically, I don't give a shit about grades. That's not why I boulder.
I may just drive to G******* and propose marriage. When is your pad arriving? (read: i hope mine arrives before i go to the NT).
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wallwombat
May 23, 2010, 10:49 AM
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davidnn5 wrote: I may just drive to G******* and propose marriage. When is your pad arriving? (read: i hope mine arrives before i go to the NT).
I swore I'd never get married again so you're out of luck.
My Organic pad is arriving end of May or start of June. If yours doesn't arrive before you go to the N.T you are welcome to borrow my other pad. My shoulder is fucked so I wont be using it
Let me know.
(This post was edited by wallwombat on May 23, 2010, 2:52 PM)
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rockforlife
May 23, 2010, 2:59 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote: PJA7 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem. lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard. So then the first V17 will be something like this.... ? a V11 overhang into a V13 traverse then a V10 face to a V12 topout. Plus a beanie was worn and it was like, gnar. The crux is the V13 traverse but if one lacks endurance they could call it a V19. There is still oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico.
From Rock and Ice
" On February 27, at the.......Daniel Woods climbed Fred Nicole's Esperanza (V14). He called the new line, which tacks a V7 start into the desperate roof. Desperanza and tentatively graded it V15."
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i_h8_choss
May 24, 2010, 8:51 AM
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rockforlife wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: PJA7 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem. lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard. So then the first V17 will be something like this.... ? a V11 overhang into a V13 traverse then a V10 face to a V12 topout. Plus a beanie was worn and it was like, gnar. The crux is the V13 traverse but if one lacks endurance they could call it a V19. There is still oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico. From Rock and Ice " On February 27, at the.......Daniel Woods climbed Fred Nicole's Esperanza (V14). He called the new line, which tacks a V7 start into the desperate roof. Desperanza and tentatively graded it V15."
That's an extension of an existing problem. The Op'er didn't ask about that. I wasn't commenting about an extension of a problem.
It was asked about the length of a problem (or one problem). A 2 move problem (which would be V7 with a V7 crux) and a 20 move problem (also rated V7 with a V7 crux).
In the Buttermilks there are lots of big problems. Some with around 20 moves. Take High Plains Drifter for example, a V7 problem with the V7 crux move being low to the ground at the overhang, then lots of easier moves up high on the slab. If a traverse was added to High Plains Drifter, then that would be a 2nd problem and probably get a new name and new grade.
Oil is still leaking......
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I_do
May 24, 2010, 10:35 AM
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i_h8_choss wrote: rockforlife wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: PJA7 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem. lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard. So then the first V17 will be something like this.... ? a V11 overhang into a V13 traverse then a V10 face to a V12 topout. Plus a beanie was worn and it was like, gnar. The crux is the V13 traverse but if one lacks endurance they could call it a V19. There is still oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico. From Rock and Ice " On February 27, at the.......Daniel Woods climbed Fred Nicole's Esperanza (V14). He called the new line, which tacks a V7 start into the desperate roof. Desperanza and tentatively graded it V15." That's an extension of an existing problem. The Op'er didn't ask about that. I wasn't commenting about an extension of a problem. It was asked about the length of a problem (or one problem). A 2 move problem (which would be V7 with a V7 crux) and a 20 move problem (also rated V7 with a V7 crux). In the Buttermilks there are lots of big problems. Some with around 20 moves. Take High Plains Drifter for example, a V7 problem with the V7 crux move being low to the ground at the overhang, then lots of easier moves up high on the slab. If a traverse was added to High Plains Drifter, then that would be a 2nd problem and probably get a new name and new grade. Oil is still leaking......
And if it were sustained all the way from the bottom to the top it would be V8 or V9 with no single move harder then V7. Just look at some of the V15's in the hollow mountain cave, they're massive linkups of V12 and V13 and add up to V15, with their V13 crux.
So yeah lenght matters.
Note: I think such long monsters are better of getting a route grade, but then again the FA's are usually pretty clear about the climb so who cares, but the principal also applies to shorter boulders.
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i_h8_choss
May 24, 2010, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: And if it were sustained all the way from the bottom to the top it would be V8 or V9 with no single move harder then V7.
Well it's a good thing that climbing grades are subjective cause I'm going to have to disagree. A climbers endurance should not be a factor in the grade. It should be about the crux move or moves.
And some boulder problems have multiple cruxes, but if they are all V7 (5.13a) cruxes, it does not make sense (to me) to give it a V8 (5.13 b/c) or V9 (5.13d) grade. All good climbers should just have endurance.
If I'm grading a problem that is sustained V7 climbing, I would not give it a V9 grade.
If a fat, chubby, out of shape climber who can climb V7 moves can't do a sustained V7 problem, he/she would grade it V8 or V9 on the FA.
That's a problem.
On the other hand, if a climber has excellent endurance, and can cruise the same V7 sustained problem, he/she would give it a V6 or V7 rating if FA'ed.
They would both agree that the moves are sustained V7 but they would both give the problem different grades based on their endurance levels.
Then what's next? Adjusting grades because of ape index, age, sex, or shoe size?
Just give the grade based on the crux(es) move(s) and everyone else can judge it easily.
In reply to: Just look at some of the V15's in the hollow mountain cave, they're massive linkups of V12 and V13 and add up to V15, with their V13 crux.
Where is Hollow Mtn Cave? Again you speak of linkups which is a combination of 2, 3 or more problems that are combined to make a new problem with a new name and grade. This I understand.
In reply to: So yeah lenght matters.
That's what she said
In reply to: Note: I think such long monsters are better of getting a route grade, but then again the FA's are usually pretty clear about the climb so who cares, but the principal also applies to shorter boulders.
I agree. 'Long monsters' should be given a route grade because one must have proper endurance to complete the 'long monster'.
But for a boulder problem, whether it's 7 ft. or 27 ft., giving the grade that correlates with the crux or cruxes is most convenient. IMO.
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rockforlife
May 24, 2010, 9:27 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote: rockforlife wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: PJA7 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem. lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard. So then the first V17 will be something like this.... ? a V11 overhang into a V13 traverse then a V10 face to a V12 topout. Plus a beanie was worn and it was like, gnar. The crux is the V13 traverse but if one lacks endurance they could call it a V19. There is still oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico. From Rock and Ice " On February 27, at the.......Daniel Woods climbed Fred Nicole's Esperanza (V14). He called the new line, which tacks a V7 start into the desperate roof. Desperanza and tentatively graded it V15." That's an extension of an existing problem. The Op'er didn't ask about that. I wasn't commenting about an extension of a problem. It was asked about the length of a problem (or one problem). A 2 move problem (which would be V7 with a V7 crux) and a 20 move problem (also rated V7 with a V7 crux). In the Buttermilks there are lots of big problems. Some with around 20 moves. Take High Plains Drifter for example, a V7 problem with the V7 crux move being low to the ground at the overhang, then lots of easier moves up high on the slab. If a traverse was added to High Plains Drifter, then that would be a 2nd problem and probably get a new name and new grade. Oil is still leaking......
The crux was still V14, apparently he doesn't have the endurance to climb that hard. That's why he graded it V15 when he put on the extension.
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i_h8_choss
May 24, 2010, 9:50 PM
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rockforlife wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: rockforlife wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: PJA7 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: jt512 wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: The length does not matter. The amount of moves does not matter. I'm curious. What is it like to always be wrong? Jay Why are you trolling around in the Bouldering forum? Stick to what your good at, bashin' n00bs and hangdoggin spurt routes. Oh please explain the V-scale to everyone oh wise Jay. And tell me why a one move dyno problem is a V5? Then another problem with 3 easy V0 moves up to a V5 dyno is still a V5? R and X rated are for the length and/or potential danger of a problem. lol, nice strawman. Obviously sometimes adding to the length doesn't affect the grade, like if you tack on a few moves that are 5 grades below the crux. But other times length does matter. A lot of the V14/15 problems are V11s and V12 s that have been strung together. I'm sure also that some of the 15+ move VHard problems don't have any single move that is as hard as a 3 move VHard. So then the first V17 will be something like this.... ? a V11 overhang into a V13 traverse then a V10 face to a V12 topout. Plus a beanie was worn and it was like, gnar. The crux is the V13 traverse but if one lacks endurance they could call it a V19. There is still oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico. From Rock and Ice " On February 27, at the.......Daniel Woods climbed Fred Nicole's Esperanza (V14). He called the new line, which tacks a V7 start into the desperate roof. Desperanza and tentatively graded it V15." That's an extension of an existing problem. The Op'er didn't ask about that. I wasn't commenting about an extension of a problem. It was asked about the length of a problem (or one problem). A 2 move problem (which would be V7 with a V7 crux) and a 20 move problem (also rated V7 with a V7 crux). In the Buttermilks there are lots of big problems. Some with around 20 moves. Take High Plains Drifter for example, a V7 problem with the V7 crux move being low to the ground at the overhang, then lots of easier moves up high on the slab. If a traverse was added to High Plains Drifter, then that would be a 2nd problem and probably get a new name and new grade. Oil is still leaking...... The crux was still V14, apparently he doesn't have the endurance to climb that hard. That's why he graded it V15 when he put on the extension.
He graded a new problem and gave it a new name.
And really....should adding one V7 (5.13a) move to an existing V14 (5.15) change the 'crux move' to V15 (5.15 c/d)?
Aren't these folks just trying to be the best and up their scorecards so they can take more climbing trips and get more free shwag ?
Think about the oil....
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