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chadnsc
May 28, 2010, 6:30 PM
Post #76 of 131
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Touche! You win this round!  
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chadnsc
May 28, 2010, 6:48 PM
Post #78 of 131
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Now that's a double wammy against me! 
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jt512
May 28, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #79 of 131
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shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: and yes, we use big quicklinks, rated at 800 kilos at least.... Kilonewtons or kilograms? Jay kilograms But isn't, like, sacrilegious to measure force in kilograms? Jay hahaha i know where this comes from... and yes, it is strictly forbidden to measure force in kilograms, you could die... however we are not applying dinamic force, but weight, since we only rappel from the quicklinks...
But weight is still a force!
Jay
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shu2kill
May 28, 2010, 7:28 PM
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jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: and yes, we use big quicklinks, rated at 800 kilos at least.... Kilonewtons or kilograms? Jay kilograms But isn't, like, sacrilegious to measure force in kilograms? Jay hahaha i know where this comes from... and yes, it is strictly forbidden to measure force in kilograms, you could die... however we are not applying dinamic force, but weight, since we only rappel from the quicklinks... But weight is still a force! Jay
yes, and if you divide weight/gravity you will get mass... but, do you need the mass to calculate the kN applied to a PAS in a FF2???
and what if i clip one of the intermediate loops of my daisy to a hardware store bought quicklink, and then have a FF2 on it?? what will break first?? assuming a bomber anchor of course....
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hafilax
May 28, 2010, 7:33 PM
Post #81 of 131
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shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: and yes, we use big quicklinks, rated at 800 kilos at least.... Kilonewtons or kilograms? Jay kilograms But isn't, like, sacrilegious to measure force in kilograms? Jay hahaha i know where this comes from... and yes, it is strictly forbidden to measure force in kilograms, you could die... however we are not applying dinamic force, but weight, since we only rappel from the quicklinks... But weight is still a force! Jay yes, and if you divide weight/gravity you will get mass... but, do you need the mass to calculate the kN applied to a PAS in a FF2??? and what if i clip one of the intermediate loops of my daisy to a hardware store bought quicklink, and then have a FF2 on it?? what will break first?? assuming a bomber anchor of course....
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Gmburns2000
May 28, 2010, 8:35 PM
Post #82 of 131
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jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: Nobody leaves new biners. If a few people left bail biners you would have a collection of those instead of quicklinks (which is an incredible misnomer when compared to a biner). I have a bunch of bootied and retired biners that I keep for this very purpose. It's a bad practice based on a poor excuse. well, its a matter of customs.... i know people in the US leaves biners, thats not new to me. but if one of you comes here and leaves a biner, you would be getting some weird looks from the locals who are used to leaving/picking quicklinks... so i dont understand why you say its a bad practice when everybody in my area does it and is happy with it, for the reasons previously mentioned.... its like the rappel/lower off thing i guess... we prefer to rappel, and encourage everyone to rappel. but if you in certain area like to lower off, then when we are there, we will be lowered.... not wrong, just different... we havent had any problems by leaving quicklinks, so why would we start leaving biners that cost like 10 times as much and serve the same purpose?? im sure i would have a really hard time trying to convince the locals... and leaving biners while picking quicklinks doesnt seems like a good idea either.. I completely agree with you that if none of you minds having to deal with removing quicklinks, then it should be perfectly acceptable to use them as bail gear, but I'm getting tired of reading the same fallacious argument about how much more it would cost to use bail biners instead. Although I have left bail biners in the past, I have never bought a bail biner, nor left a good biner of my own. I am in lifetime net positive bail biner balance. So, leaving bail biners has cost me nothing; in fact, I've made a small profit from having bootied more than I have left. The point is, if your group used biners to bail from, there would be no net long-run cost to the group. Bail biners in a closed population of climbers shouldn't be disappearing; they should just cycle within the group. Again, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with your current practice; only that you should stop defending it by implying that every time one of you were to leave a biner it would cost you $10 or more. Jay
with regards to a "bail biner" balance, sure, I see your point, but with regards to a "new biner" balance, no, they still lose out.
Start with 10 new biners. Leave one and you're down to 9 new biners. Booty a biner and you're at 9 new biners plus 1 bootied biner. Yes, you've still got 10 biners, but one of them has less value because you don't know the history.
I have used bail biners as a part of my rack before, but not until I've first used all the biners that I have personally bought brand new.
Over a long period of time, yeah, I'm sure the bail biner balance is pretty even for most of us. But if you have a particularly bad stretch where you don't find any and end up leaving some, well, then you're playing with a smaller rack of non-bootied biners, and I can see where that might cost more.
Also, if you've made a "profit" then someone else has lost. If you're so into the community having a zero net effect then you should be giving more than you do. Be a gent and send a few down to Mexico.
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jt512
May 28, 2010, 9:36 PM
Post #83 of 131
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: Nobody leaves new biners. If a few people left bail biners you would have a collection of those instead of quicklinks (which is an incredible misnomer when compared to a biner). I have a bunch of bootied and retired biners that I keep for this very purpose. It's a bad practice based on a poor excuse. well, its a matter of customs.... i know people in the US leaves biners, thats not new to me. but if one of you comes here and leaves a biner, you would be getting some weird looks from the locals who are used to leaving/picking quicklinks... so i dont understand why you say its a bad practice when everybody in my area does it and is happy with it, for the reasons previously mentioned.... its like the rappel/lower off thing i guess... we prefer to rappel, and encourage everyone to rappel. but if you in certain area like to lower off, then when we are there, we will be lowered.... not wrong, just different... we havent had any problems by leaving quicklinks, so why would we start leaving biners that cost like 10 times as much and serve the same purpose?? im sure i would have a really hard time trying to convince the locals... and leaving biners while picking quicklinks doesnt seems like a good idea either.. I completely agree with you that if none of you minds having to deal with removing quicklinks, then it should be perfectly acceptable to use them as bail gear, but I'm getting tired of reading the same fallacious argument about how much more it would cost to use bail biners instead. Although I have left bail biners in the past, I have never bought a bail biner, nor left a good biner of my own. I am in lifetime net positive bail biner balance. So, leaving bail biners has cost me nothing; in fact, I've made a small profit from having bootied more than I have left. The point is, if your group used biners to bail from, there would be no net long-run cost to the group. Bail biners in a closed population of climbers shouldn't be disappearing; they should just cycle within the group. Again, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with your current practice; only that you should stop defending it by implying that every time one of you were to leave a biner it would cost you $10 or more. Jay with regards to a "bail biner" balance, sure, I see your point, but with regards to a "new biner" balance, no, they still lose out. Start with 10 new biners. Leave one and you're down to 9 new biners. Booty a biner and you're at 9 new biners plus 1 bootied biner. Yes, you've still got 10 biners, but one of them has less value because you don't know the history.
Then don't bail off a new biner.
In reply to: Also, if you've made a "profit" then someone else has lost.
That's what gumbies are for.
Jay
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soNVclimbing
May 28, 2010, 10:50 PM
Post #84 of 131
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I have no use for found/bootied climbing gear for its history I do not know. I will leave behind my brand new 15 dollar helium when bailing any day. Whats it worth to you? I guess I am just fortunate enough to not have to. I do not carry "bail" only carabiners for if so there would have been times I would of had to use it and trust it.
I once knew of a guy who used "bootied" gear.
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jt512
May 28, 2010, 11:06 PM
Post #85 of 131
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soNVclimbing wrote: I have no use for found/bootied climbing gear for its history I do not know.
Yeah, there is always that risk of microfractures to worry about.
Jay
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milesenoell
May 28, 2010, 11:24 PM
Post #86 of 131
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soNVclimbing wrote: I have no use for found/bootied climbing gear for its history I do not know. I will leave behind my brand new 15 dollar helium when bailing any day. Whats it worth to you? I guess I am just fortunate enough to not have to. I do not carry "bail" only carabiners for if so there would have been times I would of had to use it and trust it. I once knew of a guy who used "bootied" gear.
once....!! (hint, hint: he died cause when it failed catastrophically on him, or some such story)
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milesenoell
May 28, 2010, 11:36 PM
Post #87 of 131
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Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else.
Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw.
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bill413
May 29, 2010, 12:54 AM
Post #88 of 131
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milesenoell wrote: Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else. Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw.
Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation.
They might be surprised that the locking sleeve doesn't strengthen the biner 
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hafilax
May 29, 2010, 4:01 AM
Post #89 of 131
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bill413 wrote: milesenoell wrote: Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else. Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw. Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation. They might be surprised that the locking sleeve doesn't strengthen the biner
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bill413
May 30, 2010, 12:08 AM
Post #90 of 131
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hafilax wrote: bill413 wrote: milesenoell wrote: Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else. Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw. Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation. They might be surprised that the locking sleeve doesn't strengthen the biner But what about gate flutter while you're rappelling?
Well, I'm smooth.
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bandycoot
Jun 1, 2010, 5:17 PM
Post #91 of 131
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jt512 wrote: I completely agree with you that if none of you minds having to deal with removing quicklinks, then it should be perfectly acceptable to use them as bail gear, but I'm getting tired of reading the same fallacious argument about how much more it would cost to use bail biners instead. Although I have left bail biners in the past, I have never bought a bail biner, nor left a good biner of my own. I am in lifetime net positive bail biner balance. So, leaving bail biners has cost me nothing; in fact, I've made a small profit from having bootied more than I have left. The point is, if your group used biners to bail from, there would be no net long-run cost to the group. Bail biners in a closed population of climbers shouldn't be disappearing; they should just cycle within the group.
Jay, it's not a fallacious argument if few climbers leave bail biners. Substitute quicklink, and you're right. The more experienced climbers will have a positive balance of quicklinks. If it is not the norm to leave carabiners behind, then there is no reason to assume that there are consistently a turnover of bail biners to pick up. Instead it's quicklinks, which are recycled like you are talking about.
:)
Josh
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vegastradguy
Jun 2, 2010, 10:47 PM
Post #92 of 131
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hafilax wrote: bill413 wrote: milesenoell wrote: Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else. Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw. Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation. They might be surprised that the locking sleeve doesn't strengthen the biner But what about gate flutter while you're rappelling?
why would you rappel off a single bail biner on a sport route when you have a perfectly good belayer to lower you?
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milesenoell
Jun 2, 2010, 10:50 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: hafilax wrote: bill413 wrote: milesenoell wrote: Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else. Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw. Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation. They might be surprised that the locking sleeve doesn't strengthen the biner But what about gate flutter while you're rappelling? why would you rappel off a single bail biner on a sport route when you have a perfectly good belayer to lower you?
Because lowering through a hanger is unkind to your rope?
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milesenoell
Jun 2, 2010, 10:57 PM
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What about this though: Why not treat a hanger kinda like the chains and do a pass-though and rap off a hanger?
That way the rope only passes through the hanger when it is un-weighted, and no gear is left behind. You have to trust your life to a single bolt, but there are times when that situation arises naturally anyway. Plus, you still have the piece below you for protection as you initiate your descent, so you don't really have to trust the one bolt the whole way down.
At the very least it's not as bad as the trad Texas rope trick.
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redlude97
Jun 2, 2010, 11:06 PM
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milesenoell wrote: vegastradguy wrote: hafilax wrote: bill413 wrote: milesenoell wrote: Hell, I've climbed stuff I knew was over my limit just because there was a bail biner on it. I'll try to move it up a little before bailing off it or just climb up and look at what kind of a problem stopped somebody else. Here's a question though, what's the deal with lockers as bail biners? It wasn't like a quick-link, but I came upon one and fiddled with it for what felt like way too long before getting it off and then clipping a draw. Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation. They might be surprised that the locking sleeve doesn't strengthen the biner But what about gate flutter while you're rappelling? why would you rappel off a single bail biner on a sport route when you have a perfectly good belayer to lower you? Because lowering through a hanger is unkind to your rope? 
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milesenoell
Jun 3, 2010, 12:53 AM
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In reply to: why would you rappel off a single bail biner on a sport route when you have a perfectly good belayer to lower you?
In reply to: Because lowering through a hanger is unkind to your rope? In reply to: wat???
Perhaps I misunderstood the question. I thought the query was: If you find yourself part way up a sport route you can't finish, why bail off a single biner rather than be lowered by your belayer?
As I understand it, the question is: why leave a biner? Along with an implication that you could be lowered from that point by your belayer without leaving a biner. This implies to me either lowering through the hanger, or some trick worth mentioning on how he does it otherwise.
On second look, that was a lot to infer from VTG's post. Please disregard my earlier comment.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Jun 3, 2010, 1:02 AM)
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jt512
Jun 3, 2010, 1:11 AM
Post #98 of 131
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bill413 wrote: Some folks think that "locker == ultimate safety," without thinking through the mechanics/physics/reality of the situation.
Thanks for using the double equal sign there. Otherwise I would have for sure thought you were assigning the value "ultimate safety" to the variable "locker", which given the context, would have completely confused me.
Jay
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redlude97
Jun 3, 2010, 1:20 AM
Post #99 of 131
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milesenoell wrote: In reply to: why would you rappel off a single bail biner on a sport route when you have a perfectly good belayer to lower you? In reply to: Because lowering through a hanger is unkind to your rope? In reply to: wat??? Perhaps I misunderstood the question. I thought the query was: If you find yourself part way up a sport route you can't finish, why bail off a single biner rather than be lowered by your belayer? As I understand it, the question is: why leave a biner? Along with an implication that you could be lowered from that point by your belayer without leaving a biner. This implies to me either lowering through the hanger, or some trick worth mentioning on how he does it otherwise. On second look, that was a lot to infer from VTG's post. Please disregard my earlier comment.
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milesenoell
Jun 3, 2010, 1:20 AM
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acorneau wrote: milesenoell wrote: At the very least it's not as bad as the trad Texas rope trick. How so? I used the TRT a few weeks ago using a BW Titan sling, a couple of biners and a nice size tree. I'd much rather do a TRT than rap off a rope going directly through a standard hanger.
maybe I'm unfairly maligning the Texas Rope Trick (I'm not on familiar enough terms to call it the TRT yet), and since I don't use it so I wouldn't really know, but reading about the Trad Texas Rope Trick did not make me think it was a great idea to start trying it out right away. It looks like one of those things that is totally doable, but doesn't meet the same safety standard that (I tell myself) the rest of my climbing does.
The regular Texas Rope Trick doesn't look particularly sketchy, but again I have no hands on experience with it.
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