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siskiyoukid
Jun 7, 2010, 4:37 AM
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I will not tell you who I work for or where. But here is the low-down... My job does not entail climbing (although I personally climb)...but I do work very near to right on the edge of very high, unstable cliffs. The people that established these work sites did so 30 years ago, or more even, and did so with little regard for safety and no experience or training with proper safety equipment and practices. They just got the job done. Now they are my bosses. Over the years, various people have expressed concerns about safety...we see rockfall all the time and one of these times it could be/will be what someone is standing on...the falls are hundreds of feet. So our bosses...thinking us total wimps...gave us...get ready for this...are you ready? Okay...they gave us...Dog Anchors - corkscrew ones about a foot long - and clip on dog leashes. Some camps got parachute chord and could tie-in using that. A few of us even have harnesses and rope even...static...and can tie-in to the cork-screw dog anchors with those. No shit.
I recently had a discussion with one of my bosses...they said, "looks if it makes people feel safer than that is better than nothing." I would not stand down...and I said I totally disagree...a false sense of safety could make someone careless and take greater risks, getting closer to the edge.
I refuse to use these things...I would rather just fall and take my chances than be tethered to a giant wine-opener that I could land on when I go down with it.
There is NOTHING to tie into up where I work. It is all tundra with no rocks...just moss and grass forever. I have taken to pounding in 4 foot lengths of rebar at an angle leaving a little over a foot sticking out...so over two feet in the ground. I do two to three of these per location. I also place them at least 30 feet back from the edge...having observed that failure here rarely goes more than 5 to 6 feet back...so giving plenty of extra room for ground shifting. There was one rebar set-up here already..but it is literally a foot from where the soil is slumping/a scarp...and five feet from the edge.
In 30 years no one has died on our sites. But it is only a matter of time I believe the way things are run.
I am basically looking for feedback. 1) am I being totally over-the-top in my opinion of these dog anchors? 2) do the anchor set-ups I am employing (rebar sunk into the ground over two feet) sound decent / any better ideas out there? I will post pics of what I am talking about...
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ianmeister89
Jun 7, 2010, 4:50 AM
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I got an image of somebody tying off of a dog wedged into a crack, not unlike a nalgene bottle... i lol'ed.
on another note- your bosses scare me.
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kobaz
Jun 7, 2010, 5:18 AM
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Wait.... so.... you work on unstable rock close to the cliffs edge?... what the heck is your job title?
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siskiyoukid
Jun 7, 2010, 6:21 AM
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I don't want to get my boss' in trouble...I want to help fix the problem is all so am looking for advice...so I don't want to give away too much...but let us say that I get paid to observe things going on on the cliff faces. Pretty cool job. Here is a photo from the other day and you can kinda see what I am talking about...this is actually one of the more stable sites...some have slides directly beneath them...there is one just in front of where I sit here that you can see though.
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dugl33
Jun 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
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Helical piers have been used in construction for a long time now. Of course, those are engineered systems, and the torque is measured and installed to a required specification.
So, to me, the idea isn't that crazy. I'd tie them off with webbing flush to the ground though, and equalize a few of them. You might also try some of your own testing to determine failure strengths. The rebar idea will work too. Slam it in with a sledge hammer... good luck pulling it out. Tie offs flush to the ground for these too. Of course, you'll want to put caps on your rebar stakes. No point in causing injury trying to be safe.
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siskiyoukid
Jun 7, 2010, 6:59 AM
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Yes but Helical Piers have a horizontal plate component that is screwed in, and they tend to be several feet long/deep. These would be even better than the rebar. The dog screws I am talking about are exactly like a wine-opener screw but larger...but only a feet long. I am going to shock test a few and I will get back to you all with my results. The rebar I am slamming in using a sledge and I do use webbing tied in at ground level. Is a clove-hitch okay to use with webbing? Seems like I would want a knot that grips as I am tying into an open system. And yes we use florescent rebar caps...you are so right about them being a hazard if not properly marked.
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siskiyoukid
Jun 7, 2010, 7:14 AM
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I also wanted to throw out there if anyone has ever used duckbill anchors in a climbing capacity? I have seen hand-rope set-ups anchored with these. But I also have a friend who has worked with them and said that he has had them blow out of the ground before under a not so heavy load. Any experience with these or the helical piers for that matter? I would be interested in something more sophisticated than rebar if it was practical. There is the occasion where people have had to abseil over the edge and then ascend and I believe they used rebar as the anchor here...but his been a few years and they were working for a different organization. I just want to do this thing right and write up a formal safety protocol for my boss'...wether or not they use it is up them...but I just want to do the right thing here.
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angry
Jun 7, 2010, 11:25 AM
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Is this in America? Seems like OSHA would be on you if it was.
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bill413
Jun 7, 2010, 12:37 PM
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I certainly would not be happy with the dog anchors. I've been able to rip them straight out, depending of course on the type of ground they are in. A horizontal pull on them would be less likely to pull them out, but...
I like the rebar idea as you've described it. I think tying with the webbing, provided it lies flat through the knot & is dressed well, should be OK. I suppose you could also tie a figure 8 on a bight & drop the loop over the rebar. I'll let others take me to task for those opinions.
If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job").
GL.
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hansundfritz
Jun 7, 2010, 12:46 PM
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Brits have been rapping off of "belay stakes" for decades at seaside crags. Sounds very much like your rebar solution. If you google "belay stake," you'll find lots of references. Good luck.
EDIT: Try "abseil stake" instead, actually.
My college summer job was working on the roof a commercial greenhouse -- caulking, painting, replacing broken glass, etc. Bosses (who did the same tasks in their youth) would pretty much ignore anyone who wanted to talk about safety.
(This post was edited by hansundfritz on Jun 7, 2010, 2:00 PM)
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Lazlo
Jun 7, 2010, 12:54 PM
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siskiyoukid wrote: I also wanted to throw out there if anyone has ever used duckbill anchors in a climbing capacity? I have seen hand-rope set-ups anchored with these. But I also have a friend who has worked with them and said that he has had them blow out of the ground before under a not so heavy load. Any experience with these or the helical piers for that matter? I would be interested in something more sophisticated than rebar if it was practical. There is the occasion where people have had to abseil over the edge and then ascend and I believe they used rebar as the anchor here...but his been a few years and they were working for a different organization. I just want to do this thing right and write up a formal safety protocol for my boss'...wether or not they use it is up them...but I just want to do the right thing here.
Duckbill anchors are very finicky. Sometimes they hold well, and other times I can't get them to stay in the ground. I wouldn't trust my life to them.
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edge
Jun 7, 2010, 1:23 PM
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I seem to remember the staff biologists at Cape St Mary's in Newfoundland anchoring with rebar; at least that is what I recall.
The situation looks quite similar to yours as well.
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wonderwoman
Jun 7, 2010, 1:38 PM
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bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job").
What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation:
http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.html
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Jun 7, 2010, 1:39 PM)
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angry
Jun 7, 2010, 1:41 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.html
I guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago.
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wonderwoman
Jun 7, 2010, 1:43 PM
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angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago.
Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays.
Also, if this guy works for the government, he's not covered by OSHA.
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Jun 7, 2010, 1:49 PM)
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scrapedape
Jun 7, 2010, 1:52 PM
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I've seen my dog pull out one of those dog anchors, about a foot long, and he's only about 80 lbs. I wouldn't trust my life to it. You are not being over the top in your distrust of those anchors.
Rebar sunk two feet into the ground sounds like a better option, depending on the ground. How firm or soft is it? I would probably use at least a couple of well-spaced anchor points.
It sounds like your employer should be providing something better than what they are providing. But if they're not, it's probably worth putting together your own setup, which it sounds like you have done.
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pfwein
Jun 7, 2010, 2:14 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays.
Wait a second, are you saying that our government regulators could allow a dangerous condition to persist without resolving until something bad happen? 
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bill413
Jun 7, 2010, 2:29 PM
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pfwein wrote: wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays. Wait a second, are you saying that our government regulators could allow a dangerous condition to persist without resolving until something bad happen?
Somehow, I think you should use " " instead of "" for this revelation. 
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siskiyoukid
Jun 7, 2010, 6:47 PM
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Thanks... I will look these up and see what extra steps I may need to take in order to make this as safe as possible. I mean in the end I know I am on the edge of a 1000 footer that is crumbeling. A few years ago I was in a similar situation but I was able to drive up to the locations with an ATV...so I just parked it perpendicular, braked and tied off on the frame...oh well...better than a dog anchor.
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siskiyoukid
Jun 7, 2010, 7:49 PM
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Thanks for the links...good stuff and will test out.
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momentum
Jun 8, 2010, 3:40 AM
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Some info and tests on "stakes" for anchors
http://bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
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acorneau
Jun 8, 2010, 12:46 PM
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momentum wrote: Some info and tests on "stakes" for anchors http://bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
Good link!
I was trying to find that info but couldn't remember where I saw it.
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JimTitt
Jun 8, 2010, 2:01 PM
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Probably never though of this one then!
http://www.gripple.com/products/catalogue/agricultural/products/fenox.html#
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dugl33
Jun 8, 2010, 2:16 PM
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You might also consider concrete form stakes. A 3' stake driven 2+ feet in the ground is going to be pretty burly. They are thick and the point is already tapered. Paint the top with flourescent paint -- good to go.
Drive it straight in with a heavy sledge, and tie off the base with a clove hitch.
http://www.capcityequipment.com/cplacement0099.html
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Jun 8, 2010, 2:19 PM)
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benbeard
Jun 8, 2010, 2:29 PM
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maybe using a rebar stake with a blade attached along the stake?
I would check out some of the snow anchor options to back up your rebar. I'm sure the rebar works fine, but maybe back it up with one of the snow anchor options that are out there.
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shockabuku
Jun 8, 2010, 3:23 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays. Also, if this guy works for the government, he's not covered by OSHA.
Why do think that?
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shockabuku
Jun 8, 2010, 3:25 PM
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Like ice screws.
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wonderwoman
Jun 8, 2010, 4:32 PM
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shockabuku wrote: wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays. Also, if this guy works for the government, he's not covered by OSHA.Why do think that?
http://www.dol.gov/...e/guide/osha.htm#who
The Act does not cover:
* Self-employed persons;
* Farms which employ only immediate members of the farmer's family;
* Working conditions for which other federal agencies, operating under the authority of other federal laws, regulate worker safety. This category includes most working conditions in mining, nuclear energy and nuclear weapons manufacture, and many aspects of the transportation industries; and
* Employees of state and local governments, unless they are in one of the states operating an OSHA-approved state plan.
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shockabuku
Jun 8, 2010, 4:50 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: shockabuku wrote: wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays. Also, if this guy works for the government, he's not covered by OSHA.Why do think that? The Act does not cover: * Self-employed persons; * Farms which employ only immediate members of the farmer's family; * Working conditions for which other federal agencies, operating under the authority of other federal laws, regulate worker safety. This category includes most working conditions in mining, nuclear energy and nuclear weapons manufacture, and many aspects of the transportation industries; and * Employees of state and local governments, unless they are in one of the states operating an OSHA-approved state plan.
Interesting. I work for the federal government (military) and of course we don't see much of OSHA and right now I work in a state government facility and don't see it either but I never really knew why.
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wonderwoman
Jun 8, 2010, 4:52 PM
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shockabuku wrote: wonderwoman wrote: shockabuku wrote: wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays. Also, if this guy works for the government, he's not covered by OSHA.Why do think that? The Act does not cover: * Self-employed persons; * Farms which employ only immediate members of the farmer's family; * Working conditions for which other federal agencies, operating under the authority of other federal laws, regulate worker safety. This category includes most working conditions in mining, nuclear energy and nuclear weapons manufacture, and many aspects of the transportation industries; and * Employees of state and local governments, unless they are in one of the states operating an OSHA-approved state plan. Interesting. I work for the federal government (military) and of course we don't see much of OSHA and right now I work in a state government facility and don't see it either but I never really knew why.
You may live in a state that has extended some OSHA-like protections to public employees. It's been a grassroots effort. The rights were taken away under the Bush administration.
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shockabuku
Jun 8, 2010, 5:29 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: shockabuku wrote: wonderwoman wrote: shockabuku wrote: wonderwoman wrote: angry wrote: wonderwoman wrote: bill413 wrote: If this is U.S., then going to OSHA is certainly an option. You've made your point to your bosses. If they'll accept your proposal, then OK, otherwise I'd seriously consider who would be higher up that can force some safety compliance. It is good that they are allowing you to do what you're doing (not just saying "get on with your job"). What bill413 says. You have the right to ask that OSHA not reveal your identity to your employer. It maybe resolvable without getting them into trouble. If they fix it, then it's not a violation: http://www.osha.gov/...worker/complain.htmlI guess what I meant to say is that this is definitely not in the US or OSHA would have been all over them long ago. Unless there is a filed complaint, OSHA only shows up when someone has been maimed or killed nowadays. Also, if this guy works for the government, he's not covered by OSHA.Why do think that? The Act does not cover: * Self-employed persons; * Farms which employ only immediate members of the farmer's family; * Working conditions for which other federal agencies, operating under the authority of other federal laws, regulate worker safety. This category includes most working conditions in mining, nuclear energy and nuclear weapons manufacture, and many aspects of the transportation industries; and * Employees of state and local governments, unless they are in one of the states operating an OSHA-approved state plan. Interesting. I work for the federal government (military) and of course we don't see much of OSHA and right now I work in a state government facility and don't see it either but I never really knew why. You may live in a state that has extended some OSHA-like protections to public employees. It's been a grassroots effort. The rights were taken away under the Bush administration.
Statements like that confuse me.
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j_ung
Jun 8, 2010, 8:09 PM
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Sho'nuff. 
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benbeard
Jun 9, 2010, 3:33 PM
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http://bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
scroll down 20% of the way and look at the "Stakes" section.
Great testing this person did. After looking over it, you could use some angle iron, with the bottom cut to form a point. That looks like a great, cheap, and safe way to do it. You could pound it in with a sledge. Angle iron would be a bit heavier to carry out with you, but from the testing mentioned on the website, you might be able to tie off more than 1 person to the stake. Your call.
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Lazlo
Jun 15, 2010, 4:00 AM
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I don't think it's been asked, but do you need to remove your anchor, or is it permanent?
You could always do a "T slot" aka "Deadman" anchor.
If all I had was soil, and I had a ton of time; my anchor of choice would be a buried snow picket. Attach to it via cable.
Edit; or for simplicity; just buy a snow fluke
(This post was edited by Lazlo on Jun 15, 2010, 4:02 AM)
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mach2
Jun 15, 2010, 7:11 AM
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I second something like this:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_292564-25-AK4_4294936085_?productId=3169581&Ntt=anchor&Ntk=i_products&pl=1¤tURL=/pl_Lawn%2B_4294936085__s?Ntk=i_products$Ntt=anchor
I have also done the rebar thing for slacklines and it worked just fine with 3/4" rebar pounded into dirt a couple of feet.
If it came down to it I would find similar soil conditions and set up to of these anchors opposing one another, put a cable hoist winch and runner in between. Then I pull until something fails.
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Davey
Jun 15, 2010, 10:32 PM
Post #38 of 41
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Registered: Feb 2, 2007
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This is a really good way to do it! SAR teams have been using this for years. It's kinda allot of gear but if you have a ATV not really a big deal.
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hugepedro
Jun 15, 2010, 11:13 PM
Post #39 of 41
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Registered: May 28, 2002
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Kinda like ice screws.
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dcfdrescue2
Jun 16, 2010, 8:30 PM
Post #40 of 41
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Registered: Oct 28, 2009
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I've broken a few of the screw in anchors during pull testing, but the arrowheads have always held.
http://www.americanea.com/products.php?cat=55
I've used them mostly for stabilizing overturned vehicles, but have always envisioned them for just the type of scenario the OP was talking about.
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majid_sabet
Jun 16, 2010, 9:07 PM
Post #41 of 41
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
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Davey wrote: This is a really good way to do it! SAR teams have been using this for years. It's kinda allot of gear but if you have a ATV not really a big deal.
standard practice within the fire dept rescue system 1 training in USA. I think originally came from the military and works well when assembled right. if I could recall, you need to go min 2 feet deep and use 4 or something like that. you tension tie the front to back with another cord and you twist the cord with another stick to pull slack out.
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