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Darkside accident
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maldaly


Jun 17, 2010, 12:10 PM
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Re: [sampleinajar] Cinch is dangerous! [In reply to]
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sampleinajar, when I give a climbing clinic (usually titled "Trad Climbing for the Chickenhearted") I say almost the exact same thing about belay devices. "Watch the belayers" I say. If they are using a manual device their eyes and attention is always on the climber. If they are using a locking-assist device, their eyes and attention could be anywhere.

I wish it wasn't so.
Mal


RyanJames1984


Jun 17, 2010, 12:26 PM
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dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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I agree with the fact that people cause belay related climbing accidents and not the belay device. However, from what I've noticed, it seems like people fumble more with the cinch and use it incorrectly than any other belay device. I was reading a forum on MP.com where someone commented,

"it seems that everyone i've talked to has seen someone dropped or heard of a friend of theirs being dropped or nearly dropped with these things."

Could the fact that when the cinch is open the rope goes straight through the device, as oppose to the atc and gri gri where the rope is kinked through the device, possible cause the cinch to be more dangerous with lackadaisical belayers?


billl7


Jun 17, 2010, 12:27 PM
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Re: [maldaly] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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maldaly wrote:
I'll ask myself every day, "Is there anything else I could have done to instruct or warn Mike and his belayer?" I don't know the answer to that but you can bet that I'll be spending a good bit of my time trying to figure that out.
I can't think of any other attitude I'd want in the designer of equipment. Simply put, above and beyond.

Of course, you already know that with belay devices it is a hard problem to solve. How does one make a fool-proof device that can both feed out rope freely when needed and brake flawlessly when needed? The answer lies somewhere in the gray areas. Or should I say the answers since obviously there are many different solutions on the market today. Edit: But none will ever be the perfect answer.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 17, 2010, 12:29 PM)


jt512


Jun 17, 2010, 12:32 PM
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Re: [RyanJames1984] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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RyanJames1984 wrote:
I agree with the fact that people cause belay related climbing accidents and not the belay device. However, from what I've noticed, it seems like people fumble more with the cinch and use it incorrectly than any other belay device. I was reading a forum on MP.com where someone commented,

"it seems that everyone i've talked to has seen someone dropped or heard of a friend of theirs being dropped or nearly dropped with these things."

Could the fact that when the cinch is open the rope goes straight through the device, as oppose to the atc and gri gri where the rope is kinked through the device, possible cause the cinch to be more dangerous with lackadaisical belayers?

Pure sampling bias on your part. Until this thread, I had never seen or heard of anyone being dropped by a Cinch, but I have seen and heard of more people than I can remember being dropped using Grigris and ATCs. You cannot draw conclusions about the relative safety of belay devices from such sources.

Jay


RyanJames1984


Jun 17, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: [jt512] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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You're absolutely right. Is there any data out there that we can look at to see which is proven to be the safest device.

What I'm trying to say, is that I don't think that the cinch is the safest device.


jt512


Jun 17, 2010, 12:42 PM
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Re: [RyanJames1984] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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RyanJames1984 wrote:
You're absolutely right. Is there any data out there that we can look at to see which is proven to be the safest device.

Nope.

In reply to:
What I'm trying to say, is that I don't think that the cinch is the safest device.

And what I'm trying to say is that you have no valid reason to believe that.

Jay


silascl


Jun 17, 2010, 1:07 PM
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Re: [RyanJames1984] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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RyanJames1984 wrote:
You're absolutely right. Is there any data out there that we can look at to see which is proven to be the safest device.

What I'm trying to say, is that I don't think that the cinch is the safest device.

If you want to hear the opposing personal bias, I use the Cinch to belay regularly, and have never felt a slipping of the rope through the device that was described in this thread or the incident reported on mountainproject. I've been using the cinch for 2.5 years or so, belaying in the gym 2-3 days a week catching at least 1-2 falls per day.

The key in my opinion is to pinch the device over the two holes as described in the manual and video. There's a temptation to slide your hand up higher as it allows you to feed out slack even more easily, but you go from three fingers on the brake to two. You also get most of your hand over the device, increasing your gripping power that holds the cam open. That combined with the instinct of clamping down during a fall may have led to this accident, and almost definitely lead to the near accident described on mountainproject.

I've seen people use the Cinch with other methods, and I'm going to be a lot more careful when I see people belaying with autolocking devices in odd configurations. It may work 99.9% of the time, but during a moment of panic it means you're now holding the device incorrectly and can't catch a fall. The Cinch, just like any other device, can be 100% reliable provided it is used correctly by a competent belayer.


Partner rgold


Jun 17, 2010, 1:20 PM
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Re: [maldaly] Cinch is dangerous! [In reply to]
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Mal, I feel for you. You and other gear manufacturers are up against cultural trends within and outside of the climbing world that are way beyond your control.

In all honesty, I don't think it matters how many warnings you plaster on a piece of gear. Scan the threads on various sites to see how many times someone says "the manufacturer says you shouldn't do X," followed by the response, "That's just there for liability reasons---of course you can do X."

Climbers, most of who have neither engineering expertise nor understanding of the physics involved believe they know better. And many feel justified because in their years of experience they haven't had to deal with the kind of low-probability event that their faulty practices would turn into a catastrophe.

Climbing gear can't be designed to, say, civil engineering standards anyway. It would be far too heavy to carry and far too clumsy to use. Anything that is actually going to be usable for climbers will have subtleties and idiosyncrasies that are part of the compromise that must be made to create functional equipment for the real climbing world.

All this conflicts with the desirable but unattainable goal of making something "foolproof." It is not simply that fools will always find a way to defeat built-in protections. The reality is that real climbing gear will always have dangerous features that can only be mitigated by intelligent and attentive use.

This means that practice, experience, and vigilance are critical. New climbers, like new drivers, are already at increased risk, even if they remain vigilant, and there are now many environments in which the prevailing attitude does nothing to encourage even minimally appropriate attention.

Turning to the culture within the climbing world, sport and gym climbing have effected a major change in the notion of personal responsibility. People regularly climb using protection systems installed by someone else, systems that by and large cannot be evaluated by observation anyway. You can hardly be a climber today if you don't blindly trust gear that you yourself have had nothing to do with placing, gear with operating principles and failure modes that you barely understand and typically ignore.

It may be that the nightmares you mention come with the territory of the business you are in. One can hardly propose callousness as an alternative to the distress you feel. But, our litigious society notwithstanding, surely your responsibility ends at some reasonable point and the responsibility of the user takes over. The stupidity of the current thread title indicates the sad fact that there will be people who never understand this.


(This post was edited by rgold on Jun 17, 2010, 2:14 PM)


rock_ranger


Jun 17, 2010, 1:28 PM
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rocclimber30


Jun 17, 2010, 1:46 PM
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Re: [rock_ranger] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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rock_ranger wrote:
rocclimber30 wrote:
My account of the events leading up to the accident involving Mike Tucker:

I was belaying a friend on Darth Mall, which is about 15 feet to the left of Elephant Man. At the time of the accident my climber was in direct to the 3rd or 4th bolt. My eyes were on Mike as he smoothly climbed past the 4th bolt and entered the crux of the climb. He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt. He did NOT skip any bolt nor was he pulling rope at the time of the fall. While falling mike got into a textbook position. He was in a cat like position with his feet extended in front of him ready to impact the wall. He free fell for about 10-15 feet before a little bit of rope drag from the rope running through the Trango Cinch could be heard. The rope drag was not enough to slow him or make any difference in the fall. As he fell the belayer came into my peripheral view. I could see that he was out of balance and fumbling with the Trango Cinch. I immediately lowered my climber and proceeded to administer first aid.

Not being familiar with the Trango Cinch, i could not tell by looking at it if it were loaded correctly during the fall. After stabilizing Mike 15-30 minutes after the initial fall, i had a chance to inspect the Trango Cinch and do a pull test in which the device seemed to be set up correctly and working properly.

Analysis: Belayer Error.

i. Device was set up backwards.

OR

2. Device was set up correctly and the belayer was caught off guard accidentally clamping down on the Trango Cinch in an attempt to balance himself.

Rocclimber30,

can you clarify whether or not Mike was clipped into the 4th bolt? from your post I read it he was, but I don't want to assume.

Thanks.

Correct, Mike had clipped the fourth bolt and fell moving to the 5th bolt.


gitarooman


Jun 17, 2010, 2:01 PM
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Re: [jt512] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
RyanJames1984 wrote:
I agree with the fact that people cause belay related climbing accidents and not the belay device. However, from what I've noticed, it seems like people fumble more with the cinch and use it incorrectly than any other belay device. I was reading a forum on MP.com where someone commented,

"it seems that everyone i've talked to has seen someone dropped or heard of a friend of theirs being dropped or nearly dropped with these things."

Could the fact that when the cinch is open the rope goes straight through the device, as oppose to the atc and gri gri where the rope is kinked through the device, possible cause the cinch to be more dangerous with lackadaisical belayers?

Pure sampling bias on your part. Until this thread, I had never seen or heard of anyone being dropped by a Cinch, but I have seen and heard of more people than I can remember being dropped using Grigris and ATCs. You cannot draw conclusions about the relative safety of belay devices from such sources.

Jay

+1


(This post was edited by gitarooman on Jun 17, 2010, 2:14 PM)


jt512


Jun 17, 2010, 2:03 PM
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Re: [gitarooman] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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gitarooman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
RyanJames1984 wrote:
I agree with the fact that people cause belay related climbing accidents and not the belay device. However, from what I've noticed, it seems like people fumble more with the cinch and use it incorrectly than any other belay device. I was reading a forum on MP.com where someone commented,

"it seems that everyone i've talked to has seen someone dropped or heard of a friend of theirs being dropped or nearly dropped with these things."

Could the fact that when the cinch is open the rope goes straight through the device, as oppose to the atc and gri gri where the rope is kinked through the device, possible cause the cinch to be more dangerous with lackadaisical belayers?

Pure sampling bias on your part. Until this thread, I had never seen or heard of anyone being dropped by a Cinch, but I have seen and heard of more people than I can remember being dropped using Grigris and ATCs. You cannot draw conclusions about the relative safety of belay devices from such sources.

Jay

+1

Good username.

Jay


jape


Jun 18, 2010, 6:42 AM
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Re: [jt512] dangerous belayer [In reply to]
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First of all, thanks so much Itz and Kostic for clearing up what happened in this terrible accident. Thanks to Mal Daly too.

Since it's gotten a little OT I'll weigh in this belay device issue

I have heard of several near misses with a cinch and read about a few more, like

http://mountainproject.com/v/climbing_gear_discussion/yet_another_cinch_warning_yes_i_dropped_him_20_feet/106658764__1

Of course similar accidents happen with other devices...

To me, the Gri-gri is a perfect device...for me. I've used it on thousands of routes from severe sport to soloing bits of walls when speed climbing...I've used it in a lot of unorthodox ways rigging for photos etc, but again, it's my experience that makes it the safest device for me. As well as knowing how it "could" unlock if it gets caught in the works weird...

I still remember the time that my friend threaded it backwards, 2 pitches up, climbing with another, toproping a 5.11. As the climber started up, there was clearly something wrong! He couldn't pull rope through! I "Took" with both hands, hastily muntered while we fixed it. That was many years ago, but it is still crystal clear in my mind and always leads me to 5x check....hand, hand, anchor/climber, etc. Safety last....

Thx again fellas.


ClimbClimb


Jun 18, 2010, 1:22 PM
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Re: [rocclimber30] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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rocclimber30, kostik - thank you and others for providing information about this accident. I hope it serves to make all of us a little bit safer.

In terms of locking threads and getting information about accidents, here's how I see it -- (1) after some interval allowing for decency and dealing with the immediacy of the trauma has passed, the basic bare-bones information should be made available, but (2) there should not be information-free speculation, accusation or needless disclosure of private details that infringe on the privacy and dignity of those involved.

For example, the NTSB will, after some time, release the transcript of the cockpit voice recording capturing the last minutes of a doomed flight. They do not release the actual recordings of the horrifying last moments of the pilots' lives. Similarly, things like descriptions of last words, death agonies, pictures of injuries, or medical information does little to enhance our safety -- but may very well aggravate the suffering of the injured & killed and their friends & families.

I think this kind of approach to this forum may be more helpful than the somewhat imprecise guidelines discussed earlier, that seem to devolve into "I know it when I see it" and "I have rights".

Again, thank you to those who posted the details. Let's take the belay device discussion into another thread -- I have my thoughts on it, but don't want to add them here.


wmfork


Jun 18, 2010, 2:42 PM
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Re: [rocclimber30] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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rocclimber30 wrote:
He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt.... He free fell for about 10-15 feet before a little bit of rope drag from the rope running through the Trango Cinch could be heard.
This is a bit more dis-concerning than I'd originally assumed... Not to lay blame on the device, but I think this is one of the situations where the belayer has to pay the uttermost attention when using a cinch. One of my partner somewhat "rapidly lowed" me close to the ground from the 2nd or 3rd bolt of a gym route the first couples of weeks we started using the cinch. Normally, when you have time to react to a fall, you can slip your right hand down and grab the rope with all your fingers. An unexpected fall from a short distance above the bolt, especially close to the ground (usually with very little slack out), means one has very little time to adjust the hand position before the rope starts to run through the device out of control. Of course, you can screw up with all devices, but the low friction nature of the cinch means small mistakes are amplified and takes a longer fall distance before they can be rectified.


patto


Jun 18, 2010, 5:12 PM
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Re: [maldaly] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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maldaly wrote:
PS: The lawyers will undoubtedly flip out when they read this. They want me to design products and write warnings that will keep me out of court. I want to design products and write warnings that will keep you off the ground. - MD

That is exactly what I thought when I first read that. Thanks for your post Mal. I think we all appreciate your comments. Smile

maldaly wrote:
Could I re-design it so that it is fool-proof? I don't know the answers to any of those questions, so the nightmares continue.

Climbing isn't a fools game. While there clearly are better and worse designs for climbing equipment nothing will be 100% fool proof.

That said in my opinion belaying by pinching/squeezing/pressing/holding pivot points of an autolocking device is far less fool proof than an ATC. Fools who fail to understand how the device operates may change hand postion and indadvertantly supress the autolocking function.

In contrast if these devices are opperated without touching the device (which normally makes quick feeds difficult), then the devices do come very close do being fool proof.

But if you want a fast smooth and solid belay. You want a good belayer first.

I have led first time belayers up multipitch climbs numerous times. Sometimes I use a gri-gri, with the simple instructions of never touching the device and never let go of the brake hand. Othertimes its ATC with a backup person on the brake rope. Of course its still a do not fall situation for me on lead.

wmfork wrote:
Normally, when you have time to react to a fall, you can slip your right hand down and grab the rope with all your fingers. An unexpected fall from a short distance above the bolt, especially close to the ground (usually with very little slack out), means one has very little time to adjust the hand position before the rope starts to run through the device out of control.

Any device/method that requires you to change hand position in order to provide braking is a recipe for disaster. I can't comment from personal experience on the Cinch but it seems to me that there is no change in hand position when Mal catches a fall in the Cinch video.

Personally I almost exclusively use my reverso to belay. My hand brake hand never leaves the rope and it is always in a locked off position below the device.


(This post was edited by patto on Jun 18, 2010, 7:16 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 19, 2010, 10:59 AM
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Re: [warrenw] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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warrenw wrote:
j_ung wrote:
While I fully understand the advantages to the community as a whole that can come from analyzing accidents, I believe common decency far outweighs any "need" we may have to climb.

Hmmm. I’m sorry j_ung, but I think I would respectfully disagree. Though, I’m not sure I actually disagree, because I’m not sure exactly what your argument is. The sentence is somewhat ambiguous.

If you mean that common decency outweighs any thing (concrete or abstract) that we “need” to climb, then I presume you mean the chance of psychological harm to family and friends multiplied by that harm outweighs the chance of information about an accident has of saving life multiplied by the good of saving that life.

If instead you mean that common decency outweighs any “need” to engage in the activity of climbing, then you seem to suggest that everybody should just stop climbing until family and friends have had sufficient time to mourn or an official accident report comes out.

Both of these seem false.

Perhaps you mean that common decency outweighs any “need” to satisfy various persons’ morbid curiosity. I’d agree with that. But no one had said anything to the contrary.

Could you clarify? I don’t intend this to be confrontational. It seems to me that most information about accidents should come out as soon as possible, save perhaps names, etcetera. I think this would include speculation based on scant details. As, even if incorrect, speculation can be informative. But I could be convinced otherwise.

w

I won't take it as confrontational -- thanks for your consideration.

I meant pretty much what blondgecko said a couple posts below mine.


jakedatc


Jun 19, 2010, 9:54 PM
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Re: [patto] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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Patto, the way i belay with my Cinch i do not change my hand position when i catch a fall. I always have 3 fingers on the rope that act as the brake.

Also i keep it oriented vertically for the most part

For me the bottom line is the Cinch and Gri gri are not "plug and play" you need to know what the hell you are doing and need to be able to do it without thinking.

Gri gri's have had far more accidents than the Cinch but since less people use them and even less know about them there is a lot more skepticism.

Mal i think you involvement here is awesome in good and bad times. Your immediate responses to issues and questions about your gear is second to none. I am not sure what else you can do to warn people. what is the quote.. "nothing is fool proof to the properly motivated fool" something like that.


jt512


Jun 19, 2010, 10:06 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Gri gri's have had far more accidents than the Cinch but since less people use them and even less know about them there is a lot more skepticism.

Not exactly the paragon of clear thinking, that.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 19, 2010, 10:07 PM)


patto


Jun 19, 2010, 10:38 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Patto, the way i belay with my Cinch i do not change my hand position when i catch a fall. I always have 3 fingers on the rope that act as the brake.

Well done. As I said from what I have seen of Mal belaying with one thats the way to do it.


sed


Jun 19, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Re: [maldaly] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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Mal, I've used a lot of gear from a variety of manufacturers over the years and never have I found anything foolproof. Even standing on the ground and watching someone climb can get you killed. Warning labels are nice and all but it's the instuctional information that comes with gear and now online instruction as well that's important. There is no excuse for not knowing how to use gear as designed. If the instructions are incorrect then that might be a designer issue but if the climber doesn't follow instructions than it's the climbers issue. When climbers do things wrong people get hurt. If someone leaves both hands off their ATC and their leader decks, no one is blaming the ATC manfacturer. If someone uses a cinch or a Gri-gri incorrectly then it's the climbers fault if someone gets hurt. Devices may have peculiarities and even limitations. They may not work in some situations or be dangerous in others but as long as that information is given to the consumer clearly then it's the climbers responsibility to be responsible. I really think we need to focus on individual responsibility and not blame the gear. If you don't like the usage of a device then don't buy it.


stonefox


Jun 19, 2010, 10:57 PM
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Re: [ltz] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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ltz wrote:
This is definitively NOT an official accident report and, to my knowledge, none of the parties involved has been contacted by any institution for an authoritative report. That said, no information is being actively repressed. There are no people to my knowledge withholding information. So, know in advance that what I post here is a third- and fourth-hand summary of what I have been able to piece together from various sources, including the belayer, who is continuing to work through his own recollection of this horrific accident. I know that the people involved in the fall and rescue intend to contact the organizations that report annually on Climbing and Alpine injuries and fatalities. For those of you seeking non-conjecture, authoritative finality, keep an eye out there.

The bottom line is that with any ground fall, if the rope or harness didn't break and bolts didn't fail - and in this case they didn't - the error is a human one. The failures that led to Mike's fall began long before his group hiked into the Darkside and they revolve around a set of beliefs and poor safety habits that are, unfortunately, all too pervasive in the climbing community. This includes “quickie” peer instruction for lead climbing/lead belaying; an over-reliance in the effectiveness of lock-assist devices; a willingness on the part of more experienced climbers to put less experienced belayers in situations requiring difficult catches (I've been told, and those of you who have belayed on Elephant man know, that it is a tough catch); and a general ambivalence toward the use of helmets - and I'm guilty of this too.

The belay device used at the time of Mike's fall was a Cinch, and the belayer inexperienced at using it. Clearly, it did not engage. Reports from the site indicate that the device was correctly loaded. Reports from the site also indicate that the belayer did not have a fixed hand on the brake. So, what this means is that the device did not engage and that the belayer was not using one of the fundamental actions required of a belayer: braking.

We know that a belayer should always have a fixed hand on the brake. But this accident presents a more complex situation that requires a look at what went wrong. On a Cinch, the device will not engage if 1) the device is manually held down, per Petzl's instructional videos on feeding rope to a lead climber; 2) the device is tipped on its side, which prevents rotation of the Cinch plates; or 3) if you belay from a position in which the pull force on the device is perpendicular to the belayer. This last scenario is particularly prevalent in a lead situation where the rope runs out (rather than up) from a belayer to the first bolt. Because of the steepness of Elephant man and the talus at the bottom, the latter situation seems to be the most likely.

Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you know how to effectively teach it to someone else. What’s more, the people you choose to instruct become your responsibility. If you aren't qualified to teach someone don't pretend you are. Send them to someone who is qualified. And, if you're on the receiving end of instruction from your "buddy who's been doing it, like, forever and is really good" - use caution. Your instruction may well be inadequate.

Hi, not sure who you are but nuff said. Thanks for the post, its covered, you got it all right here - there should be no more question on the subject.


stonefox


Jun 19, 2010, 11:04 PM
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Re: [kostik] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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kostik wrote:
I was not present when the accident occurred, but I was the 'buddy' who had given the belayer a 'quickie' instruction in the fall of 2009. Therefore I feel responsible for what happened.

I was the one who recommended the Cinch over grigri and ATC to the belayer involved for the lead belay, because I have witnessed an accident involving an ATC used by inexperienced belayer, who panicked and let go of the breaking end of the rope, and because I did not like the idea of manually blocking the grigri when feeding out the rope. Cinch, when used properly, allows easy rope release without need for blocking the cam. At the same time, when you hold it with your index finger and a thumb, the breaking end of the rope is always in your hand. You never need to let it go.

It was his first, I believe, instruction in lead belaying. We went to a gym and I explained how to hold the cinch properly with a finger and a thumb in the pivot hole and holding the breaking end of the rope in the hand. Unlike Grigri, the Cinch during the lead belay has to be tilted horizontally with its colored side up. When the leader falls, the cinch turns up and blocks the rope, providing the rope is held with the hand. When held properly, the rope is always in your hand and you never need to let go of it. See the demo video, around 2:10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo

Unfortunately, due to schedule conflict, I never had a chance to continue instructions and watch the belayer to practice more with the device. I was planning to go with him to the Red, but our weekend schedules never matched.

After the accident, my other friend experimented with the cinch and found that when it was held like grigri, i.e. vertically and not tilted, the device did not lock the rope. I did not know about this when I was giving my instructions, but I remember that I specifically told the belayer involved in the accident to hold the cinch horizontally, green side up, with index finger and the thumb in the pivot hole and the breaking hand always on the rope.

I don't know how the cinch was actually held during the accident.

I still think that when used correctly Cinch is a very safe device. However, the rules for using grigri are not applied to the cinch. These are two different devices and are supposed to be held differently. Perhaps, Trango needs to explore potentially dangerous positions of cinch and make the results of this study public.

Lee is correct by saying that when force is applied perpendicular to the belayer the cinch may not lock, especially since it is normally held horizontally. Like with all other devices, it is advisable that the belayer stays under the first draw.

I feel that my instructions were adequate and correct, but insufficient in terms of practicing time with the device. I don't know whether in 6 or so months between my lesson and the accident the belayer used the cinch correctly and did not confuse the grigri and cinch belay methods. I simply never had a chance to lead climb with him after that.

I also know that Mike was not very familiar with the Cinch. He asked me about the device a few months before the accident being curious about it. Therefore, he could not provide the belayer with proper instructions and he might suggest the incorrect grigri technique when using cinch.

I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.


drucilla


Jun 19, 2010, 11:12 PM
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Re: [jape] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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this has become an exercise in tedium: cinch v. gri gri v. atc v. belayer and so on. In addition, i've punished myself with reading the endless lock/unlock debate revolving around certain parties wishing more information.
At this time, i believe we have a fair analysis of what happened. The accident has been adequately explained.

At the time when i could begin to think rationally after we lost Mike, i decided that we could help ourselves more than we have been. We need something like a crusade to spread the message of safety. I live very near a popular sport climbing area where i commonly see unsafe things perpetrated by all ability level climbers. I SPEAK UP. Do you? It's often intimidating to tell climbers/belayers to correct their methods.
Be bold and speak up when you see something unsafe. Many among us frequently ignore unnecessary danger.
I do not know if this would have helped Mike. But i am certain that we need to take better care of each other.
I'll end with a Mike Tucker quote: "have fun, climb safe"


jakedatc


Jun 20, 2010, 5:43 AM
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Re: [jt512] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gri gri's have had far more accidents than the Cinch but since less people use them and even less know about them there is a lot more skepticism.

Not exactly the paragon of clear thinking, that.

Jay

it was late.. i just think that people are quick to blame the Cinch because it is new and not the belayer. make more sense?

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