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Darkside accident
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socalclimber


Jun 20, 2010, 9:13 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jun 20, 2010, 9:14 AM)


duppyc


Jun 20, 2010, 9:19 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.


kostik


Jun 20, 2010, 9:53 AM
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Re: [stonefox] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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stonefox wrote:
I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.


ClimbClimb


Jun 20, 2010, 3:54 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

This seems unnecessarily harsh in a thread about a fatal accident, don't you think? I'm sure the unnamed belayer and kostik feel horrible enough already.

And anyway, the reality is that while it's less *likely* to happen with more training and practice, every time you belay, there's a risk of you dropping someone. It's a small risk, reduced greatly by proper training & experience, but it's still a horrifying thought. Even world's top climbers occasionally make mistakes.


patto


Jun 20, 2010, 4:27 PM
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Re: [kostik] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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kostik wrote:
stonefox wrote:
I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about it. With over 6 months between your instruction and the incident you friend had plenty of time to learn a secure belay.

A secure belay isn't just something you are taught. You need to THINK. You need to understand the belay system and trust yourself to be able to hold a big force. The belayer clearly did not understand his device. That is his problem.


socalclimber


Jun 20, 2010, 5:27 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

This seems unnecessarily harsh in a thread about a fatal accident, don't you think? I'm sure the unnamed belayer and kostik feel horrible enough already.

And anyway, the reality is that while it's less *likely* to happen with more training and practice, every time you belay, there's a risk of you dropping someone. It's a small risk, reduced greatly by proper training & experience, but it's still a horrifying thought. Even world's top climbers occasionally make mistakes.

I'm well aware of this incident. My intentions were never aimed at the belayer or the climber. My comments were towards those who seem to be fixated on gear. Not their responsibility to their partner.

There is nothing harsh about it.

It's the truth.


jakedatc


Jun 20, 2010, 5:38 PM
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Re: [patto] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
kostik wrote:
stonefox wrote:
I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about it. With over 6 months between your instruction and the incident you friend had plenty of time to learn a secure belay.

A secure belay isn't just something you are taught. You need to THINK. You need to understand the belay system and trust yourself to be able to hold a big force. The belayer clearly did not understand his device. That is his problem.

well said, you can't learn it in one whole day lesson let alone a quick intro. Your responsibility ended when he left for the day and should have sought more guidance.


ltz


Jun 21, 2010, 6:45 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
patto wrote:
kostik wrote:
stonefox wrote:
I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about it. With over 6 months between your instruction and the incident you friend had plenty of time to learn a secure belay.

A secure belay isn't just something you are taught. You need to THINK. You need to understand the belay system and trust yourself to be able to hold a big force. The belayer clearly did not understand his device. That is his problem.

well said, you can't learn it in one whole day lesson let alone a quick intro. Your responsibility ended when he left for the day and should have sought more guidance.

I told myself that I wasn’t going to step back into this conversation and, after this, you can all rest assured that I’ll keep my trap shut.

It saddens me deeply that this seems to be the typical and pervasive mentality in the sport. IMHO it is a complete abdication of responsibility and is something that desperately needs to change. If you choose to take it upon yourself to train someone, your responsibility *begins* on that day and continues from that point. I’m not such a fool as to think you need to follow your ‘students’ around forever or to be there every time they send a climber off the ground. But, it has always been self-evident to me that people tend to be only as good as their training. Those who are merely shown a quick ‘what to do’ tend to be limited in their understanding of system-wide safety and tend to be unable to adapt and adjust quickly within the safety parameters of a given system. The people who tend to be the safest are those who are taught why they are doing what they are doing as well as system safety *and* are introduced to the critically necessary mentality of comprehensive safety. You should feel it is inherent in your responsibility to ensure that you have imparted a thorough understanding of all of those things. If you are unable to do so, whether from lack of time or lack of consistent interaction, send them to someone who is better able to provide that type of training. In short, take better care of your fellow climbers.

Further, I would argue that there is a significant difference between quickly showing someone how to do something and actually training someone. Just because you take a second to show someone how to load a chamber and pull a trigger doesn’t mean that you have trained a person in the appropriate use of firearms, firearm safety, or instilled in them a healthy understanding of the responsibilities and potential hazards of firearm use. Nor does it mean that you, as a self-appointed instructor, are free from responsibility after you say “It’s easy. All you have to do is…” If you believe that by simply showing someone a quick ‘what to do’ you have fulfilled your responsibility as an instructor, you’re incorrect. Nor should you assume that the person you have shown will seek additional instruction. You have placed yourself in the position of "expert;" they believe they have already gotten the necessary training. You should be seeking to give exceptional instruction not merely ‘adequate’ instruction.

That any individual in the sport would be continually seeking to improve their skills, on both climbing and belaying, should go without saying. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the climbers I’ve met have no qualms about wanting to get better at climbing, to snag a harder route or grade or sequence, but I hear frighteningly few climbers who seek to get better at belaying, who want to be safer. It seems to me like the focus is on the wrong end of the rope. As I said, we need to take better care of our fellow climbers. This includes ensuring that people get thorough and appropriate training. And, if you choose to instruct, it includes a necessity not only to provide thorough and appropriate training, but also to hold yourself accountable for those you train.

I know I'm probably not going to change many minds. Likely, I'm either preaching to the proverbial choir or you're firmly convinced that adequate training is enough and that the people you show how to belay aren't your responsibility. Hopefully, people will be more mindful of the instruction they opt to give and more mindful of the quality of instruction the person belaying you (go ahead and read 'protecting your life' here) has received.


dlintz


Jun 21, 2010, 8:00 AM
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Re: [maldaly] Cinch is dangerous! [In reply to]
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maldaly wrote:
I'm sorry I don't usually do this but here goes:

First, How the hell did the thread title get hijacked from Darkside Accident to Cinch is Dangerous? I would love to be able to hijack a few thread titles myself.

Second, RyanJames, the body of your thread says it all. You do a dis-service to everyone who has so eloquently contributed to this thread by titling it "Cinch is Dangerous" when, in fact, it should be titled "Belayer is Dangerous", or "Don't climb with a dangerous belayer".

Please change it.

Mal

+1

d.


patto


Jun 21, 2010, 9:14 AM
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Re: [ltz] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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Interesting topic your bring up. I disagree but you do raise important discussion. Smile

ltz wrote:
It saddens me deeply that this seems to be the typical and pervasive mentality in the sport. IMHO it is a complete abdication of responsibility and is something that desperately needs to change.
There is a very good reason why this mentality is universal across the sport and across the world.

ltz wrote:
But, it has always been self-evident to me that people tend to be only as good as their training.
I taught myself and now I teach others. Training isn't the only way that knowledge is gained. In fact it normally is the worse way. Foremost a climber needs to THINK. This cannot easily be taught.

ltz wrote:
If you choose to take it upon yourself to train someone, your responsibility *begins* on that day and continues from that point.
That has a nice ring to it but it is a worthless point. I have taught people things and never seen them again in my life. The best one can do is tell them that there is more to learn.

ltz wrote:
Those who are merely shown a quick ‘what to do’ tend to be limited in their understanding of system-wide safety and tend to be unable to adapt and adjust quickly within the safety parameters of a given system.
As long as they are made to understand this then it is fine.

ltz wrote:
The people who tend to be the safest are those who are taught why they are doing what they are doing as well as system safety *and* are introduced to the critically necessary mentality of comprehensive safety. You should feel it is inherent in your responsibility to ensure that you have imparted a thorough understanding of all of those things. If you are unable to do so, whether from lack of time or lack of consistent interaction, send them to someone who is better able to provide that type of training. In short, take better care of your fellow climbers.
If we adopted this attitude we would never get new people into this sport. Most people initially experience climbing from brief initial experiences.

ltz wrote:
Nor should you assume that the person you have shown will seek additional instruction. You have placed yourself in the position of "expert;" they believe they have already gotten the necessary training. You should be seeking to give exceptional instruction not merely ‘adequate’ instruction.
No matter how exceptional the instruction is it will not prepare them completely. There is a continuous line of experience and as long as the student is aware of that then there is no problem.

ltz wrote:
And, if you choose to instruct, it includes a necessity not only to provide thorough and appropriate training, but also to hold yourself accountable for those you train.
As a trainer I will happily train. I am however loath to 'approve' somebody as being capable of independent leading. I will never try to lay that sort of accountability on myself.

ltz wrote:
Hopefully, people will be more mindful of the instruction they opt to give and more mindful of the quality of instruction the person belaying you (go ahead and read 'protecting your life' here) has received.
I think we all have been blaise about our belayers at some point.


jakedatc


Jun 21, 2010, 10:20 AM
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Re: [ltz] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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I also disagree (obviously). People need to take RESPONSIBILITY for THEMSELVES. If you are not proficient with a skill, YOU need to get more instruction.

Hell i've taught people on routes next to me how to thread their anchor correctly because it was easier for me to explain than have them fumble through it.. does that mean i have to watch them the rest of the day to see if they get it? fuck that. I've told people in passing that they are back clipped.

the guy said he hadn't seen the belayer in 6 months. how the hell is he supposed to keep teaching him anything? Kostik shouldn't feel bad that someone he knows failed a fundamental rule of belaying and caused an accident.

some states make you take a short firearms course before getting a gun license.. do you think an instructor should feel bad if a year later the guy shoots himself in the leg because he was stupid and didn't have the safety on his gun? Crazy


patto


Jun 21, 2010, 10:31 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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{Bigot persona}

Climbing (particularly trad) is a sport that actracts competent people. Most incompetent people know deep down that they are incompetent, they tend to stay away from activities where clumbsy thought would kill them.

{/Bigot persona}

I find the number one point I want to emphasise to a new belayer is that "THEY HAVE A PERSON'S LIFE IN THEIR HANDS". Emphasise this and most people can perform a top rope belay. However it is scary when even this doesn't work.

I know of a university club that had an accident where a beginner belayer dropped a new climber (fractured vertibrae). Two weeks later the belayer was literally laughing about the incident and retelling it. Some people just don't GET what is SERIOUS. Some people just don't understand.


jt512


Jun 21, 2010, 11:39 AM
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Re: [patto] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
Most incompetent people know deep down that they are incompetent, they tend to stay away from activities where clumbsy thought would kill them.

That's not what the research says. See Unskilled and Unaware of It.

Jay


billcoe_


Jun 21, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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Sorry to hear of this and wishing the best to all.

Some points to add to what Rgold says above Malcolm. I wish they paid you money everytime you have stepped into this site and reiterated again and again and again like it says in the instructions - "do not use the Cinch for toprope self belay."

Yet mere days later some new person comes up and AGAIN asks the same goddamn question again: "Can I use the Cinch for TR self belay?" And the cycle repeats. You are left with the fact that no matter how hard you try, and you try very hard, you will never reach everyone and at some point we are all left with this perfect statement below.

socalclimber wrote:
Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

I will add that anyone who deigns to teach the skill of belaying (no matter what the device is) needs to repeat ad nauseum to their "student" how this is the MOST critical skill they will learn and that it must be mastered perfectly and done flawless EVERY SINGLE TIME! .

EVERY SINGLE TIME! .


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jun 21, 2010, 1:04 PM
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Re: [jt512] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
Most incompetent people know deep down that they are incompetent, they tend to stay away from activities where clumbsy thought would kill them.

That's not what the research says. See Unskilled and Unaware of It.

Jay

In a thread of sadness and severity, that was beautiful. Well done.


majid_sabet


Jun 21, 2010, 1:09 PM
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Re: [duppyc] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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duppyc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.

+1.... improper instruction from unqualified instructor


socalclimber


Jun 21, 2010, 2:42 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
duppyc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.

+1.... improper instruction from unqualified instructor

+2 Agreed.


majid_sabet


Jun 21, 2010, 3:07 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
duppyc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.

+1.... improper instruction from unqualified instructor

+2 Agreed.

last month, I gave a presentation on climbing and instructor related accident and refer this to;

1x1 vs 1x17

one unqualified climber kills one climber
one bad instructor could kill 17


jt512


Jun 21, 2010, 4:23 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
duppyc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.

+1.... improper instruction from unqualified instructor

+2 Agreed.

If A = {instructors who Majid would classify as qualified}
and B = {instructors who Socalclimber would classify as qualified};
then, if x is a member of A, I wonder what the probability is that x is a member of B.

Jay


socalclimber


Jun 21, 2010, 4:59 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
duppyc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.

+1.... improper instruction from unqualified instructor

+2 Agreed.

If A = {instructors who Majid would classify as qualified}
and B = {instructors who Socalclimber would classify as qualified};
then, if x is a member of A, I wonder what the probability is that x is a member of B.

Jay

Null Set.


Leave my member out of this...

Pervert.


karmiclimber


Jun 21, 2010, 9:41 PM
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Re: [ltz] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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ltz wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
patto wrote:
kostik wrote:
stonefox wrote:
I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about it. With over 6 months between your instruction and the incident you friend had plenty of time to learn a secure belay.

A secure belay isn't just something you are taught. You need to THINK. You need to understand the belay system and trust yourself to be able to hold a big force. The belayer clearly did not understand his device. That is his problem.

well said, you can't learn it in one whole day lesson let alone a quick intro. Your responsibility ended when he left for the day and should have sought more guidance.

I told myself that I wasn’t going to step back into this conversation and, after this, you can all rest assured that I’ll keep my trap shut.

It saddens me deeply that this seems to be the typical and pervasive mentality in the sport. IMHO it is a complete abdication of responsibility and is something that desperately needs to change. If you choose to take it upon yourself to train someone, your responsibility *begins* on that day and continues from that point. I’m not such a fool as to think you need to follow your ‘students’ around forever or to be there every time they send a climber off the ground. But, it has always been self-evident to me that people tend to be only as good as their training. Those who are merely shown a quick ‘what to do’ tend to be limited in their understanding of system-wide safety and tend to be unable to adapt and adjust quickly within the safety parameters of a given system. The people who tend to be the safest are those who are taught why they are doing what they are doing as well as system safety *and* are introduced to the critically necessary mentality of comprehensive safety. You should feel it is inherent in your responsibility to ensure that you have imparted a thorough understanding of all of those things. If you are unable to do so, whether from lack of time or lack of consistent interaction, send them to someone who is better able to provide that type of training. In short, take better care of your fellow climbers.

Further, I would argue that there is a significant difference between quickly showing someone how to do something and actually training someone. Just because you take a second to show someone how to load a chamber and pull a trigger doesn’t mean that you have trained a person in the appropriate use of firearms, firearm safety, or instilled in them a healthy understanding of the responsibilities and potential hazards of firearm use. Nor does it mean that you, as a self-appointed instructor, are free from responsibility after you say “It’s easy. All you have to do is…” If you believe that by simply showing someone a quick ‘what to do’ you have fulfilled your responsibility as an instructor, you’re incorrect. Nor should you assume that the person you have shown will seek additional instruction. You have placed yourself in the position of "expert;" they believe they have already gotten the necessary training. You should be seeking to give exceptional instruction not merely ‘adequate’ instruction.

That any individual in the sport would be continually seeking to improve their skills, on both climbing and belaying, should go without saying. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the climbers I’ve met have no qualms about wanting to get better at climbing, to snag a harder route or grade or sequence, but I hear frighteningly few climbers who seek to get better at belaying, who want to be safer. It seems to me like the focus is on the wrong end of the rope. As I said, we need to take better care of our fellow climbers. This includes ensuring that people get thorough and appropriate training. And, if you choose to instruct, it includes a necessity not only to provide thorough and appropriate training, but also to hold yourself accountable for those you train.

I know I'm probably not going to change many minds. Likely, I'm either preaching to the proverbial choir or you're firmly convinced that adequate training is enough and that the people you show how to belay aren't your responsibility. Hopefully, people will be more mindful of the instruction they opt to give and more mindful of the quality of instruction the person belaying you (go ahead and read 'protecting your life' here) has received.

Disagree...sorry. Its a climber's responsibility to find out for themselves how their gear works. What a mentality of "lets blame anyone but myself for screwing up." If I watch a video on youtube about how to rock climb and its terrible and unsafe and then I go copy their instructions and maim myself...who's fault is it? Mine. Duh.

Edit to add, just for fun:
1. The cinch is not an unsafe device. Its a tricky to learn how to operate correctly device. There is a difference.
2. Its the more experienced climber's responsibility to make sure their belayer knows what they are doing.
3. Its the more inexperienced belayer's responsibility to cut the bravado and say "hey, wait...I don't really understand how to use this thing..."
4. Climbing involves humans. Humans are prone to error.


(This post was edited by karmiclimber on Jun 21, 2010, 9:49 PM)


majid_sabet


Jun 21, 2010, 9:54 PM
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Re: [karmiclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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karmiclimber wrote:
ltz wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
patto wrote:
kostik wrote:
stonefox wrote:
I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about it. With over 6 months between your instruction and the incident you friend had plenty of time to learn a secure belay.

A secure belay isn't just something you are taught. You need to THINK. You need to understand the belay system and trust yourself to be able to hold a big force. The belayer clearly did not understand his device. That is his problem.

well said, you can't learn it in one whole day lesson let alone a quick intro. Your responsibility ended when he left for the day and should have sought more guidance.

I told myself that I wasn’t going to step back into this conversation and, after this, you can all rest assured that I’ll keep my trap shut.

It saddens me deeply that this seems to be the typical and pervasive mentality in the sport. IMHO it is a complete abdication of responsibility and is something that desperately needs to change. If you choose to take it upon yourself to train someone, your responsibility *begins* on that day and continues from that point. I’m not such a fool as to think you need to follow your ‘students’ around forever or to be there every time they send a climber off the ground. But, it has always been self-evident to me that people tend to be only as good as their training. Those who are merely shown a quick ‘what to do’ tend to be limited in their understanding of system-wide safety and tend to be unable to adapt and adjust quickly within the safety parameters of a given system. The people who tend to be the safest are those who are taught why they are doing what they are doing as well as system safety *and* are introduced to the critically necessary mentality of comprehensive safety. You should feel it is inherent in your responsibility to ensure that you have imparted a thorough understanding of all of those things. If you are unable to do so, whether from lack of time or lack of consistent interaction, send them to someone who is better able to provide that type of training. In short, take better care of your fellow climbers.

Further, I would argue that there is a significant difference between quickly showing someone how to do something and actually training someone. Just because you take a second to show someone how to load a chamber and pull a trigger doesn’t mean that you have trained a person in the appropriate use of firearms, firearm safety, or instilled in them a healthy understanding of the responsibilities and potential hazards of firearm use. Nor does it mean that you, as a self-appointed instructor, are free from responsibility after you say “It’s easy. All you have to do is…” If you believe that by simply showing someone a quick ‘what to do’ you have fulfilled your responsibility as an instructor, you’re incorrect. Nor should you assume that the person you have shown will seek additional instruction. You have placed yourself in the position of "expert;" they believe they have already gotten the necessary training. You should be seeking to give exceptional instruction not merely ‘adequate’ instruction.

That any individual in the sport would be continually seeking to improve their skills, on both climbing and belaying, should go without saying. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the climbers I’ve met have no qualms about wanting to get better at climbing, to snag a harder route or grade or sequence, but I hear frighteningly few climbers who seek to get better at belaying, who want to be safer. It seems to me like the focus is on the wrong end of the rope. As I said, we need to take better care of our fellow climbers. This includes ensuring that people get thorough and appropriate training. And, if you choose to instruct, it includes a necessity not only to provide thorough and appropriate training, but also to hold yourself accountable for those you train.

I know I'm probably not going to change many minds. Likely, I'm either preaching to the proverbial choir or you're firmly convinced that adequate training is enough and that the people you show how to belay aren't your responsibility. Hopefully, people will be more mindful of the instruction they opt to give and more mindful of the quality of instruction the person belaying you (go ahead and read 'protecting your life' here) has received.

Disagree...sorry. Its a climber's responsibility to find out for themselves how their gear works. What a mentality of "lets blame anyone but myself for screwing up." If I watch a video on youtube about how to rock climb and its terrible and unsafe and then I go copy their instructions and maim myself...who's fault is it? Mine. Duh.

Edit to add, just for fun:
1. The cinch is not an unsafe device. Its a tricky to learn how to operate correctly device. There is a difference.
2. Its the more experienced climber's responsibility to make sure their belayer knows what they are doing.
3. Its the more inexperienced belayer's responsibility to cut the bravado and say "hey, wait...I don't really understand how to use this thing..."
4. Climbing involves humans. Humans are prone to error.

if you pull a n00b off the street and give him a climbing gear and ask him to manage it then walk away. did you just walked away from a climber and based on your logic, you still think that was his responsibility to find out for himself ?


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 21, 2010, 9:56 PM)


karmiclimber


Jun 21, 2010, 10:04 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

if you pull a n00b off the street and give him a climbing gear and ask him to manage it then walk away. did you just walked away from a climber and based on your logic, you still think that was his responsibility to find out for himself ?

Yeah, because that is a likely scenario. Personally, I don't engage in teaching people how to climb unless I am banging them. Technique is as far as I go. When people ask questions...I point them in the direction of good books...long's books, freedom of the hills, etc.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 22, 2010, 6:43 AM
Post #124 of 191 (9261 views)
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Re: [majid_sabet] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

if you pull a n00b off the street and give him a climbing gear and ask him to manage it then walk away. did you just walked away from a climber and based on your logic, you still think that was his responsibility to find out for himself ?

Dude, that happens every day. They're called REI salespeople.Wink

On another note, the answer is somewhere between being responsible and having no responsibility whatsoever. There is NO teacher or instructor anywhere in the world in any subject matter that is expected to guide a student entirely through their learning. That is just unrealistic. The fact of the matter is that it is a student's responsibility to learn. Should the teacher provide quality instruction? Absolutely! But, in the end, no matter how qualified and excellent a teacher is, some people just can't learn certain things. Sometimes a student may be doing fine under supervision, but when asked to recall it later has trouble. You can't blame a teacher for that.

This is a terrible tragedy, for sure, but outside of obvious negligence, you cannot blame instruction.

Josh


Partner rgold


Jun 22, 2010, 9:10 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Darkside accident [In reply to]
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We old codgers learned it all (and by and large continue to learn it all) by ourselves. No instructors to blame for our own stupidity.

And that's the way it ought to be. Personal responsibility is central to climbing. If something goes wrong on your watch, it is your fault (even if it isn't). Deal with it.

It is no one's fault but your own, not the gym that provided an atmosphere of inattention and an illusion of safety, not the instructor who didn't give you the whole story and neglected to move in with you for the next ten years to keep tabs on your progress, not the leader who trusted you when they shouldn't have.

Someone put their life in your hands and you fumbled the pass. You will have to live with this, and you better not start looking around for someone else to point the finger at, because there is no one but yourself to blame.

Harsh? Part of the problem is that the general atmosphere isn't harsh enough. People need to hear this loud and clear. This ain't tiddlywinks. It isn't the NBA finals or Word Cup Soccer or the US Open either. In those things, if you lose, you go home and try harder next year. When you "lose" in climbing, someone might go home in a goddamn box.

I'm beginning to get nostalgic for the days of the hip belay. The belayer knew they were in for it. No gadget of unknown frictional properties that supposedly works with everying from dental floss to tugboat hawser, no non-autolocking autolocking device that will work even if the belayer is asleep but of course really won't, no "hands-free" device that can't really be used with hands free, in short, no technological substitute for continual attention and some very simple skills.

One of the reasons climbing is becoming so popular is that the various industries involved in promoting it manage to continually downplay the dangers, to the point that a casual attitude is easy to adopt. Look at the "you're gonna die" line, which has become a pervasive joke line in internet forums. Ha ha.

The warnings are, of course, in the fine print, but they get about as much attention as the conditions-of-use documents we routinely agree to with a click when we install new software.

But none of this excuses in inexcusable. That rope in your hands is somebody's lifeline. You sure as hell better know what you are doing with it.

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