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jt512
Jun 17, 2010, 6:32 AM
Post #51 of 191
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patto wrote: The ORIGINAL and classic method of standard feeding as recommended by Petzl does not involve touch the device. This is much more 'fool' proof. Methods that involve holding the cam are prone to accidents, this isn't the first.
That is completely false, but it has nothing to do with the present accident, which involved a Cinch; so, if you want to discuss grigri belaying further, please start a new thread.
Jay (who's not a moderator, but who actually knows how to be one)
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patto
Jun 17, 2010, 7:11 AM
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jt512 wrote: patto wrote: The ORIGINAL and classic method of standard feeding as recommended by Petzl does not involve touch the device. This is much more 'fool' proof. Methods that involve holding the cam are prone to accidents, this isn't the first. That is completely false, but it has nothing to do with the present accident, which involved a Cinch; so, if you want to discuss grigri belaying further, please start a new thread. Jay (who's not a moderator, but who actually knows how to be one)
How is it false?
Petzl instructions clearly show this both in the video and in the downloadable instructions. The only time in the instructions does the hand touch the device is for feeding out slack quickly or when lowering.
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redlude97
Jun 17, 2010, 8:01 AM
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I'm sure malcom will come into this thread soon enough and confirm the proper usage of the cinch, but based on my experience and the instructions, you do NOT have to use it in a horizontal orientation, I use my cinch strictly in a vertical configuration(actually slightly tilted to the left) and have caught plenty of falls. The key is the properly pinch the device only with your thumb and pointer, with the rest of the fingers wrapped around the rope. You can easily feed out slack while keeping the device vertical by pivoting it so that the rope runs towards the first bolt, then you just pull out yards of slack, if you get the direction perfect, you can even allow the leader to pull up their desired amount of slack without a noticeable drag on the leader's end. The cinch catches a fall by changing its vertical orientation when the rope runs through the device too quickly, and it does this by overcoming the belayer's ability to hold the cinch in a particular direction with only the 2 fingers pinching the pivot point. Most commonly the cinch will fail to activate because a belayer is holding it incorrectly, usually by cupping the device with their palm, and in the event of a fall their natural tendency is to squeeze which overcomes the camming action, much like a grigri when it is used improperly.
Here is a good thread that discusses some of the wrong and right way to use the device and how it can lead to drops http://mountainproject.com/...20_feet/106658764__1
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redlude97
Jun 17, 2010, 8:18 AM
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kostik wrote: jt512 wrote: I've never used a Cinch, so I can't speak from experience, but looking at the video and the design of the devise, it does not appear to me that the Cinch has to be held horizontally to feed rope. It's in the manual that comes with the device. I don't have it handy to show here. If you hold it vertically, like grigri, it locks when you try to feed the rope and if you try to block the cam in this position, you'll deck your partner.
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yokese
Jun 17, 2010, 12:54 PM
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redlude97 wrote: kostik wrote: jt512 wrote: I've never used a Cinch, so I can't speak from experience, but looking at the video and the design of the devise, it does not appear to me that the Cinch has to be held horizontally to feed rope. It's in the manual that comes with the device. I don't have it handy to show here. If you hold it vertically, like grigri, it locks when you try to feed the rope and if you try to block the cam in this position, you'll deck your partner. This is incorrect. In the video Malcom feeds rope in the vertical position many times.
+1
The Cinch has to be oriented vertically, not horizontally, to feed and to lock the rope. Clearly explained by Mal in his instructional video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo
1:55 to 2:00
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kostik
Jun 17, 2010, 3:09 PM
Post #57 of 191
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yokese wrote: redlude97 wrote: This is incorrect. In the video Malcom feeds rope in the vertical position many times. The Cinch has to be oriented vertically, not horizontally, to feed and to lock the rope. Clearly explained by Mal in his instructional video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo 1:55 to 2:00
He is holding it vertically only when belaying a climber on toprope. We are talking about lead belay here.
If you look carefully, at 2:27 when he is actually demonstrating feeding out the rope as you do when belaying a leader. He is tilting it to the left, like redlude97 mentioned. This is what I call holding the cinch horizontally. I hold it almost flat with the colored side up.
When the climber falls, the cinch turns vertically and locks the rope. If you hold it vertically from the start, like grigri, the cam may remain open during the fall.
I've read some posts on forums when people claim that they let the climber pull the rope out of the cinch. I am assuming that they are holding the device in vertical position for that and have their hand cupped around it. This is very dangerous. I always pull out the rope with my left hand, keeping my right on the cinch and the breaking end.
Unfortunately, I threw away my cinch manual. The one that came with the green cinch had the lead belay technique.
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bigjonnyc
Jun 17, 2010, 3:21 PM
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blondgecko wrote: No, those involved do not need my "protection". I don't know any of them, and will probably never meet any of them. But that's completely beside the point. The point is respect. As long as I am a mod of this forum, I will be doing my best to make sure that discussions (a) remain accurate and fact-based, and (b) are held at the discretion of those close to the accident. If those who know what happened do not want to share, that is their perogative. Coming in with an entitlement complex, making accusations of cover-ups and/or demanding information from those for whom the shock and grief is still fresh, is the surest way to get a thread shut down, and to get yourself banned from the A&IA forum. Ask, politely, for information. If none is forthcoming, move along. Do not complain, do not demand, do not make shit up. It's that simple.
As I tried to relate in this exchange:
billl7 wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: billl7 wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: Your responses, blondgecko, are unneeded and entirely counterproductive. Those involved do not need to you to play the part of their protector. Likewise, you easily could have made the point you were trying to without taking such a defensive and incendiary tone. That's not my take on the above exchange. The response was in equal measure to the innuendo. In a couple words: even handed. Obviously, I do think this site needs to sometimes stand between subjects of threads who are suffering and us onlookers. It may not be perfect but it needs to be looked after in the name of decentness. Bill L My apologies then, if my original tone had seemed accusatory in any way. I meant in no way to sound negative or condescending. Information was withheld, not necessarily contemptuously so, but I guess some find the term "withhold" to carry a negative connotation. For that, again I apologize. Well said. I am probably misinterpretting your intent. This is one of the challenges of a text-based public forum.
I meant no disrespect to anyone involved in the accident, and wasn't demanding anything from anyone. I don't know why you read so far into my original comment as to assume I felt some sort of entitlement, was accusing anyone of anything, or demanding anything from anyone. I try to type just what I mean, as it can be very difficult in an online forum to convey sarcasm, innuendos or the like. As stated in the original thread:
adatesman wrote: ...it's already been made clear by people close to the accident that the people directly involved will not be releasing details yet...
information was withheld. That's a simple fact.
This was my original post in this thread:
bigjonnyc wrote: Bump... I was just looking to see if anything new was reported in the original thread and found it locked. I too have been wondering about the particulars of this incident, and hoping that those withholding information shortly after the accident had ever come out with a statement. Does anyone know of an official report or something?
I asked politely, of the community in general, if anyone knew of an official report made about this accident. Any impoliteness you noted was a result of you looking beyond the words that I wrote for hidden meanings. I made no complaints, I made no demands, and certainly didn't make shit up, as I made no general claim to begin with.
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redlude97
Jun 17, 2010, 3:23 PM
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kostik wrote: yokese wrote: redlude97 wrote: This is incorrect. In the video Malcom feeds rope in the vertical position many times. The Cinch has to be oriented vertically, not horizontally, to feed and to lock the rope. Clearly explained by Mal in his instructional video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo 1:55 to 2:00 He is holding it vertically only when belaying a climber on toprope. We are talking about lead belay here. If you look carefully, at 2:27 when he is actually demonstrating feeding out the rope as you do when belaying a leader. He is tilting it to the left, like redlude97 mentioned. This is what I call holding the cinch horizontally. I hold it almost flat with the colored side up. When the climber falls, the cinch turns vertically and locks the rope. If you hold it vertically from the start, like grigri, the cam may remain open during the fall. I've read some posts on forums when people claim that they let the climber pull the rope out of the cinch. I am assuming that they are holding the device in vertical position for that and have their hand cupped around it. This is very dangerous. I always pull out the rope with my left hand, keeping my right on the cinch and the breaking end. Unfortunately, I threw away my cinch manual. The one that came with the green cinch had the lead belay technique.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2010, 3:39 PM
Post #60 of 191
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: The ORIGINAL and classic method of standard feeding as recommended by Petzl does not involve touch the device. This is much more 'fool' proof. Methods that involve holding the cam are prone to accidents, this isn't the first. That is completely false, but it has nothing to do with the present accident, which involved a Cinch; so, if you want to discuss grigri belaying further, please start a new thread. Jay (who's not a moderator, but who actually knows how to be one) How is it false? Petzl instructions clearly show this both in the video and in the downloadable instructions. The only time in the instructions does the hand touch the device is for feeding out slack quickly or when lowering.
You just answered your own question.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 17, 2010, 4:04 PM
Post #61 of 191
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Great link. I'm starting to become really scared about being belayed by any device that I do not thoroughly understand myself.
Jay
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kostik
Jun 17, 2010, 4:17 PM
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redlude97 wrote: How much do you actually hold the cinch? The cinch can feed in any spot between horizontal and vertical. Like I said, I hold it almost perfectly vertical all the time(>80 degrees). The only reason I don't hold it perfectly vertical is because it is hard to pull out slack without hitting yourself in the face. You also do not need to cup the cinch to allow the leader to pull out slack themselves, you can use the same pinch method. You use the friction between your fingers to rotate the orientation so that the rope runs as straight as possible towards the first bolt, and the leader pulls out his own slack at a reasonable rate. If the leader pulls slack too fast the cinch rotates because you cannot hold the device in that orientation by just pinching and it locks. This is something to discuss with your partner beforehand if you are going to utilize this technique, otherwise you can just pull the slack for them. The cinch works by rotating about its pivot point, not by the rotation in the plane of the cinch plates.
I pinch the cinch lightly with my thumb and index finger. When the leader falls, I let the cinch go, while holding the breaking end of the rope. The cinch turns vertically and at the same time its plates rotate and lock the rope. When I was experimenting with it, I found that when it is vertical to begin with, you need to keep the plates open to feed the rope and when the rope jerks suddenly, the cinch may not lock. Therefore, tilting it gives the plates enough time to engage during the sudden pull of the rope.
Also, I always wear gloves when belaying with the cinch. They help when lowering the climber.
I never let the leader pull the slack out directly of the device. I want to control how much rope is out.
(This post was edited by kostik on Jun 17, 2010, 4:21 PM)
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maldaly
Jun 17, 2010, 4:25 PM
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This is the stuff my nightmares are made of. I don't know Mike but from what I have read and heard about him, we are cut from the same cloth. My deepest and saddest condolences go out to his family, friends, his belayer and all of the people who were around when it happened. This is an accident that will stay with me the rest of my life and is just the kind of event that makes me want to quit designing climbing gear. I'll ask myself every day, "Is there anything else I could have done to instruct or warn Mike and his belayer?" I don't know the answer to that but you can bet that I'll be spending a good bit of my time trying to figure that out.
I engage with the rc.com community (much to the astonishment of my competitors) because, #1, you're my peeps and, #2, to listen to the conversations that are going on and to step in when it feels right. I suppose that I started lurking 5 years ago in self defense. I figured that I would hang out to see what people were saying about my stuff and then jump in to defend my gear when it became necessary. Very quickly the lurking became a dialog and I realized that I had something to offer and the community had something to offer me. I can't imagine not doing it.
So here I am, shattered by the loss of a great climber who I never got to meet, burdened by the knowledge that he is no longer with us and that, maybe, I am somehow complicit. I usually don't like to play the "would of, should of, could of" game but I can't help but fall in to it now. What would I do differently to instruct and warn climbers of the need to learn from the instructions and practice using the gear before they trust a life to it. Should I increase the size of the warning on the Cinch body? (EXPERT USE ONLY!) Should I add more warning language to the instructions? Could I re-design it so that it is fool-proof? I don't know the answers to any of those questions, so the nightmares continue.
I go back and think about the promise I make to the climbing community -- "I promise to honor the integrity and intelligence of climbers through innovative and smart design" -- and I wonder how it applies to this tragic situation. Do I honor the intelligence of the community by adding more and larger warnings to everything? Or do I honor you by stripping off the extraneous junk and delivering a clean and simple product? "Innovative and smart design" assumes that you want new cool stuff and are willing to take the time to explore, learn and practice its use. Is it my bad to assume that? Was my commitment to my promise a factor in Mike's death?
And so, the nightmares continue.
Climb safe, please.
Mal
PS: The lawyers will undoubtedly flip out when they read this. They want me to design products and write warnings that will keep me out of court. I want to design products and write warnings that will keep you off the ground. - MD
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yokese
Jun 17, 2010, 4:35 PM
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kostik wrote: He is tilting it to the left, like redlude97 mentioned. This is what I call holding the cinch horizontally.
If you call that to be horizontal, fair enough, I also tilt it to the left ~30ş, basically because it is hard to keep it completely vertical without twisting the wrist in an strenuous position.
I think that the the problem is not whether it is vertically oriented or tilted, but if one blocks the mechanism by cupping the hand around the cinch, as you mentioned, instead of keeping it pinched between the index and the thumb. That would be akin to keep the Grigri lever pressed down.
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kostik
Jun 17, 2010, 4:43 PM
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yokese wrote: If you call that to be horizontal, fair enough, I also tilt it to the left ~30ş,
Right, 20-30 deg. I call it horizontal for all practical purposes.
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yokese
Jun 17, 2010, 4:48 PM
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kostik wrote: yokese wrote: If you call that to be horizontal, fair enough, I also tilt it to the left ~30ş, Right, 20-30 deg. I call it horizontal for all practical purposes.
You misunderstood me, I tilt it to the left ~30ş. That will leave the device at 60ş over the horizontal plane. I hope I made myself more clear.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2010, 4:50 PM
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+1
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maldaly
Jun 17, 2010, 4:55 PM
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kostik and jt512
Sorry for the broken link. It's fixed now. BTW, Thanks for all your input above.
Mal
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RyanJames1984
Jun 17, 2010, 5:22 PM
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A very good friend of mine decked because his belayer was using a cinch and was not paying attention. My friend fell and the belayer was holding the cinch open. He fell 25 feet and decked hard. Thankfully this was at a gym and not outside. If it would have been outside, he probably would have died from trauma to the head (his head smacked the mats HARD).
With this said, I think extreme caution needs to be taken when allowing someone to use the cinch who is not as experienced in belaying or is not use to ALWAYS paying attention. The gri gri locks much, much easier than the cinch and people need to know this.
Has anyone else had or heard of close calls or bad experiences with the cinch?
(This post was edited by RyanJames1984 on Jun 17, 2010, 7:17 PM)
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csproul
Jun 17, 2010, 5:47 PM
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I have been using a Cinch for years, and I can't imagine how you could hold the device open. If you are holding it as taught in the video, it would be very difficult to hold this device open, even if you tried to. This is one of the advantages of the Cinch over the Grigri; generally people hold the Grigri open to quickly feed rope, while there is no need to do this with the Cinch.
(This post was edited by csproul on Jun 17, 2010, 6:10 PM)
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maldaly
Jun 17, 2010, 6:03 PM
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I'm sorry I don't usually do this but here goes:
First, How the hell did the thread title get hijacked from Darkside Accident to Cinch is Dangerous? I would love to be able to hijack a few thread titles myself.
Second, RyanJames, the body of your thread says it all. You do a dis-service to everyone who has so eloquently contributed to this thread by titling it "Cinch is Dangerous" when, in fact, it should be titled "Belayer is Dangerous", or "Don't climb with a dangerous belayer".
Please change it.
Mal
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bigjonnyc
Jun 17, 2010, 6:22 PM
Post #73 of 191
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maldaly wrote: I'm sorry I don't usually do this but here goes: First, How the hell did the thread title get hijacked from Darkside Accident to Cinch is Dangerous? I would love to be able to hijack a few thread titles myself. Second, RyanJames, the body of your thread says it all. You do a dis-service to everyone who has so eloquently contributed to this thread by titling it "Cinch is Dangerous" when, in fact, it should be titled "Belayer is Dangerous", or "Don't climb with a dangerous belayer". Please change it. Mal
+1
Extreme caution should be taken with a belayer with little experience regardless of the device. Devices aren't dangerous, people are.
edit: sp.
(This post was edited by bigjonnyc on Jun 17, 2010, 6:23 PM)
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sampleinajar
Jun 17, 2010, 6:35 PM
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RyanJames1984 wrote: A very good friend of mine decked because his belayer was using a cinch and was not paying attention. My friend fell and the belayer was holding the cinch open. He fell 25 feet and decked hard. Thankfully this was at a gym and not outside. If it would have been outside, he probably would have died from trauma to the head (his head smacked the mats HARD). With this said, I think extreme caution needs to be taken when allowing someone to use the cinch who is not as experienced in belaying or is not use to ALWAYS paying attention. The gri gri locks much, much easier than the cinch and people need to know this. Has anyone else had or heard of close calls or bad experiences with the cinch?
Your right it was without a doubt caused by the “dangerous” cinch. It’s hard to blame the cinch in that example, the same thing could happen with a gri gri or ATC. However, if the belayer was using an ATC would he have been paying attention and avoided dropping the leader? I think that is part problem. Rarely do I see someone with an ATC not paying attention while belaying, but I see it all the time with belayers using an “auto-locking” device. What is it about these devices that foster an attitude of such complacency? Would you give a brand new belayer an ATC and start taking huge falls? I have seen people give a 10 min lesson to a brand new belayer on how to use a gri gri then hop on a climb clearly at or beyond their limit and take some big falls. I use both the cinch and gri gri and tend to favor the cinch over the gri gri. But I treat it like what it is, a locking assisted device not an auto-locking device.
(This post was edited by sampleinajar on Jun 17, 2010, 6:57 PM)
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rocclimber30
Jun 17, 2010, 6:44 PM
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My account of the events leading up to the accident involving Mike Tucker:
I was belaying a friend on Darth Mall, which is about 15 feet to the left of Elephant Man. At the time of the accident my climber was in direct to the 3rd or 4th bolt. My eyes were on Mike as he smoothly climbed past the 4th bolt and entered the crux of the climb. He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt. He did NOT skip any bolt nor was he pulling rope at the time of the fall. While falling mike got into a textbook position. He was in a cat like position with his feet extended in front of him ready to impact the wall. He free fell for about 10-15 feet before a little bit of rope drag from the rope running through the Trango Cinch could be heard. The rope drag was not enough to slow him or make any difference in the fall. As he fell the belayer came into my peripheral view. I could see that he was out of balance and fumbling with the Trango Cinch. I immediately lowered my climber and proceeded to administer first aid.
Not being familiar with the Trango Cinch, i could not tell by looking at it if it were loaded correctly during the fall. After stabilizing Mike 15-30 minutes after the initial fall, i had a chance to inspect the Trango Cinch and do a pull test in which the device seemed to be set up correctly and working properly.
Analysis: Belayer Error.
i. Device was set up backwards.
OR
2. Device was set up correctly and the belayer was caught off guard accidentally clamping down on the Trango Cinch in an attempt to balance himself.
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