When are people going to learn and accept the fact that the gear is not dangerous.

It's the people using it. Period!

I've been using a grigri for 20 years and I HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO DROPPING ANYONE. Same goes with atc's, tube style devices and stich plates, which I currently use.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

I didn't know that you are an instructor at the gym.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

Instructors in the gym charge $55 per lead belay class on ATC. I am just a 'buddy' who gave a free 'quickie' on Cinch and now I regret that I ever did it.

This seems unnecessarily harsh in a thread about a fatal accident, don't you think? I'm sure the unnamed belayer and kostik feel horrible enough already.

And anyway, the reality is that while it's less *likely* to happen with more training and practice, every time you belay, there's a risk of you dropping someone. It's a small risk, reduced greatly by proper training & experience, but it's still a horrifying thought. Even world's top climbers occasionally make mistakes.

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about it. With over 6 months between your instruction and the incident you friend had plenty of time to learn a secure belay.

A secure belay isn't just something you are taught. You need to THINK. You need to understand the belay system and trust yourself to be able to hold a big force. The belayer clearly did not understand his device. That is his problem.

well said, you can't learn it in one whole day lesson let alone a quick intro. Your responsibility ended when he left for the day and should have sought more guidance.

I'm sorry I don't usually do this but here goes:

First, How the hell did the thread title get hijacked from Darkside Accident to Cinch is Dangerous? I would love to be able to hijack a few thread titles myself.

Second, RyanJames, the body of your thread says it all. You do a dis-service to everyone who has so eloquently contributed to this thread by titling it "Cinch is Dangerous" when, in fact, it should be titled "Belayer is Dangerous", or "Don't climb with a dangerous belayer".

Please change it.

Mal

It saddens me deeply that this seems to be the typical and pervasive mentality in the sport. IMHO it is a complete abdication of responsibility and is something that desperately needs to change.

But, it has always been self-evident to me that people tend to be only as good as their training.

If you choose to take it upon yourself to train someone, your responsibility *begins* on that day and continues from that point.

Those who are merely shown a quick ‘what to do’ tend to be limited in their understanding of system-wide safety and tend to be unable to adapt and adjust quickly within the safety parameters of a given system.

The people who tend to be the safest are those who are taught why they are doing what they are doing as well as system safety *and* are introduced to the critically necessary mentality of comprehensive safety. You should feel it is inherent in your responsibility to ensure that you have imparted a thorough understanding of all of those things. If you are unable to do so, whether from lack of time or lack of consistent interaction, send them to someone who is better able to provide that type of training. In short, take better care of your fellow climbers.

Nor should you assume that the person you have shown will seek additional instruction. You have placed yourself in the position of "expert;" they believe they have already gotten the necessary training. You should be seeking to give exceptional instruction not merely ‘adequate’ instruction.

And, if you choose to instruct, it includes a necessity not only to provide thorough and appropriate training, but also to hold yourself accountable for those you train.

Hopefully, people will be more mindful of the instruction they opt to give and more mindful of the quality of instruction the person belaying you (go ahead and read 'protecting your life' here) has received.

Most incompetent people know deep down that they are incompetent, they tend to stay away from activities where clumbsy thought would kill them.

Learn to belay properly, learn your job properly, and pay attention. Then these things won't happen.

That's not what the research says. See Unskilled and Unaware of It.

Jay

+1...user error causes accidents, not gear.

+1.... improper instruction from unqualified instructor

+2 Agreed.

+2 Agreed.

If A = {instructors who Majid would classify as qualified}
and B = {instructors who Socalclimber would classify as qualified};
then, if x is a member of A, I wonder what the probability is that x is a member of B.

Jay

I told myself that I wasn’t going to step back into this conversation and, after this, you can all rest assured that I’ll keep my trap shut.

It saddens me deeply that this seems to be the typical and pervasive mentality in the sport. IMHO it is a complete abdication of responsibility and is something that desperately needs to change. If you choose to take it upon yourself to train someone, your responsibility *begins* on that day and continues from that point. I’m not such a fool as to think you need to follow your ‘students’ around forever or to be there every time they send a climber off the ground. But, it has always been self-evident to me that people tend to be only as good as their training. Those who are merely shown a quick ‘what to do’ tend to be limited in their understanding of system-wide safety and tend to be unable to adapt and adjust quickly within the safety parameters of a given system. The people who tend to be the safest are those who are taught why they are doing what they are doing as well as system safety *and* are introduced to the critically necessary mentality of comprehensive safety. You should feel it is inherent in your responsibility to ensure that you have imparted a thorough understanding of all of those things. If you are unable to do so, whether from lack of time or lack of consistent interaction, send them to someone who is better able to provide that type of training. In short, take better care of your fellow climbers.

Further, I would argue that there is a significant difference between quickly showing someone how to do something and actually training someone. Just because you take a second to show someone how to load a chamber and pull a trigger doesn’t mean that you have trained a person in the appropriate use of firearms, firearm safety, or instilled in them a healthy understanding of the responsibilities and potential hazards of firearm use. Nor does it mean that you, as a self-appointed instructor, are free from responsibility after you say “It’s easy. All you have to do is…” If you believe that by simply showing someone a quick ‘what to do’ you have fulfilled your responsibility as an instructor, you’re incorrect. Nor should you assume that the person you have shown will seek additional instruction. You have placed yourself in the position of "expert;" they believe they have already gotten the necessary training. You should be seeking to give exceptional instruction not merely ‘adequate’ instruction.

That any individual in the sport would be continually seeking to improve their skills, on both climbing and belaying, should go without saying. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the climbers I’ve met have no qualms about wanting to get better at climbing, to snag a harder route or grade or sequence, but I hear frighteningly few climbers who seek to get better at belaying, who want to be safer. It seems to me like the focus is on the wrong end of the rope. As I said, we need to take better care of our fellow climbers. This includes ensuring that people get thorough and appropriate training. And, if you choose to instruct, it includes a necessity not only to provide thorough and appropriate training, but also to hold yourself accountable for those you train.

I know I'm probably not going to change many minds. Likely, I'm either preaching to the proverbial choir or you're firmly convinced that adequate training is enough and that the people you show how to belay aren't your responsibility. Hopefully, people will be more mindful of the instruction they opt to give and more mindful of the quality of instruction the person belaying you (go ahead and read 'protecting your life' here) has received.

Disagree...sorry. Its a climber's responsibility to find out for themselves how their gear works. What a mentality of "lets blame anyone but myself for screwing up." If I watch a video on youtube about how to rock climb and its terrible and unsafe and then I go copy their instructions and maim myself...who's fault is it? Mine. Duh.

Edit to add, just for fun:
1. The cinch is not an unsafe device. Its a tricky to learn how to operate correctly device. There is a difference.
2. Its the more experienced climber's responsibility to make sure their belayer knows what they are doing.
3. Its the more inexperienced belayer's responsibility to cut the bravado and say "hey, wait...I don't really understand how to use this thing..."
4. Climbing involves humans. Humans are prone to error.

if you pull a n00b off the street and give him a climbing gear and ask him to manage it then walk away. did you just walked away from a climber and based on your logic, you still think that was his responsibility to find out for himself ?

if you pull a n00b off the street and give him a climbing gear and ask him to manage it then walk away. did you just walked away from a climber and based on your logic, you still think that was his responsibility to find out for himself ?