+1

And to Those of you who can't read, please go back and try again. Bill was clear about where the fixed lines were and what they were for. And this is not his third rescue. One mentioned rescue was of a friend of his. The other was an unfortunate ground fall he took (not soloing if I understood correctly, but not totally sure right now).

Josh, your comments seem right on from what I can read.

Again, best wishes to Bill and Tom. Proud objective, sad outcome.

Earlier in my climbing career they rescued my partner off of Castle Rock when he dislocated his shoulder. In 1999, they rescued me from Death and Transfiguration when I fell 70 feet to the ground and broke my back.

I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3.

I never said anything about soloing.

This:
(taken from the blog)

implies that he was involved in a rescue at Castle Rock, one on Death and Transfiguration, and one on Redguard.

I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3. Hopefully the injured will have a speedy recovery.

You need to reread what Bill wrote.
At no time did he climb the tensioned line.
FF2 with that much rope out and pure dynamic(ie counter-weight) belay? Extremely doubtful.

josh

josh

from his blog

I continued moving up the crack until I was about fifteen feet below the piece holding us. At this point the crack above was too side for any gear, so I constructed a belay here from the #3 and the #3.5 Camalots, equalizing them to the weight from an upward pull towards the #2 Camalot above. Once this was done I put two prussiks on the rope and attached them to the belay. Now when I moved up a bit more the Tom’s weight was held by the prusiks and finally the rope to me went slack.

Majid - I still don't see the FF2 or the ascension of a tensioned rope. Bill

He climbed a tensioned rope meaning his partner was at the end of his line so when he was climbing, his partner was been lowered (pulley action) .

This whole thing was taken place on a cam that just took 100 footer .

If he had a second rope then he was able to escape belay and secure the top piece, rap down, assess the situation and fix another anchor then lower partner via second rope

... he was planning to fix the top piece and rap down via prusic on a rope that had climber hanging on it.

What I like to know was his plan C after he got down to the injured climber . Set another anchor, climb back up to the first piece, get the rope out and rap down, and then lower partner using that lead rope ?

Bill

He climbed a tensioned rope meaning his partner was at the end of his line so when he was climbing, his partner was been lowered (pulley action) . This whole thing was taken place on a cam that just took 100 footer . If he had a second rope then he was able to escape belay and secure the top piece, rap down, assess the situation and fix another anchor then lower partner via second rope instead, he was planning to fix the top piece and rap down via prusic on a rope that had climber hanging on it. What I like to know was his plan C after he got down to the injured climber . Set another anchor, climb back up to the first piece, get the rope out and rap down, and then lower partner using that lead rope ?

what in 30 minutes ?

In the style they chose, they had no need for a second rope. For the third (fourth?) time, they had rap lines in place and decided 30m of rope adequate (and not unreasonable) for their planned outing. Should they have carried extra? I'm sure a lot of climbers under the same circumstances, and with the same goal, would have not.

...

His decision at the time seems to have involved a serious amount of unselfishness and worry for his partner. The fallen climber was hanging, most likely upside down and it looks like his upward movement allowed for his partner to reach a ledge... righting himself in the process.

But what essentially amounts to slander up thread is uncalled for. Far better climbers than we have been involved in multiple accidents and rescues because they decided to push the envelope.

We don't get very many simul-climbing accidents, so I'm also curious to know what people think of his actions (or, even if they agree with his actions what else could have possibly been done). I would think that most of the analysis, however, would involved escaping the system somehow.

One specific question, though, what is the realistic chance that a leader fall while simul-climbing can cause the second to zipper out the gear ahead of him. I know he had cams between him and the the piece that held (the #2), and that cams are more multi-directional than nuts, but is it possible that such a leader fall could generate enough force such that the second rips the gear out as he rockets upward? Do people tend to only simul-climb with cams as a result of this possibility?

Second, that was a proud objective.

For the same reason(s) you have when you climb. You make your choices on style, protection, boldness, difficulty, etc. But you take risks when you climb.

I agree. I don't understand alot of the criticism leveled in this thread at the style that these climber chose.

Go climb Snake Dike in Yosemite for example and your risks are far far greater than the risks here. 25m between the bolts has a potential for an even larger fall than experienced here. Almost zero option for improvised anchors. Self rescue of a immobilised climber would be extraordinarily difficult. 4 hours minimum hike to get help. High altitude, possible high winds and sub zero temperatures. Hey and all this on a 5.7 popular climb!

If this simul climbing episode sounds especially risky to you then your scope of climbing adventure must be narrow.

This is exactly why I wanted some people to weigh in on what could be done if they had been in a wilderness setting.

I will be climbing out west for a few months this fall and will probably be simul-climbing that exact route (Snake Dyke not Eldo)!

If you are out in the wilderness then you are going to vastly improve you possiblities by having a spare rope and a spare partner. If you are efficient with plaquette belay devices then a party of three shouldn't be any slower.

Here is a 'rescue' situation on a wilderness climb.
http://www.summitpost.org/...belisk-Accident.html

I'm not sure that simul-climbing on Snake Dyke in fact with the small amount of gear there it wouldn't be much different from soloing!

When I did snake dyke we had a party of three and two ropes. That said I'm not sure either of my partners would have had the skills to rescue me had I fallen. (i had just met them in camp4)

They were slower than I had hoped on the second and on a hanging belay half way through I said to speed things up one of them had to lead the next pitch. I had the ropes nicely coiled on each leg. I wasn't excited about the rope management if I had to lead again. Both refused to lead due to the exposure. Based on that, the wind, the cold and the threat of rain I ended up calling the bail. I wasn't enjoying the climbing and a was nervous about a wet unprotected class 4 top out.

I still wonder whether I was a pussy for wussing out or if it was a sensible decision. The weather didn't come in and if we had continued it would have been fine though probably we would have been back after dark.

They next day one guy died in this incident because the weather did come in. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...tuck%20rope;#1909967

I saw some of the images from the party's camera. You were lucky. That storm looked black and scary from miles away. These guys had time but ignored the signs and paid a heavy price for it.

In the style they chose, they had no need for a second rope.

I love the presence of mind your bring to these chats. I am going to go somewhere quiet and thank whatever God I believe in that, "I am allowed my reasons for doing what I do."

So very thankful. Rock climbing is a gift to every last one of us. It's precious and we don't want to be judged for how we use it and neither does anyone else.

I gave you 5 stars because you made me thankful that I'm a climber and as a climber I have choices that make the sport satisfying, exciting and rewarding.

from his blog

I continued moving up the crack until I was about fifteen feet below the piece holding us. At this point the crack above was too side for any gear, so I constructed a belay here from the #3 and the #3.5 Camalots, equalizing them to the weight from an upward pull towards the #2 Camalot above. Once this was done I put two prussiks on the rope and attached them to the belay. Now when I moved up a bit more the Tom’s weight was held by the prusiks and finally the rope to me went slack.

We should either have a meaningful discussion or stop arguing.