Jul 9, 2010, 4:38 PM
Post #27 of 41
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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adatesman wrote:
*snip* Then again, it seems some folks are also skipping the whole injury part of self rescue and thinking only of the technical aspects of getting down so perhaps that plays into it. Sure, it's not hard to run down the mental checklist of what to do while sitting comfortably in your chair, but when someone's bleeding and unresponsive? Maybe that's the kind of thing that only becomes apparent when one is actually put in that kind of situation.
Spot on. It's the same thing with first Aid, and self rescue... no-one truly knows how they will respond until they have been through it. The actual self rescue can't be viewed as just the evacuation, you have to consider the whole experience... accident/conditions, rescue, and aftermath. Even without injury a self rescue can be much more terrifying in a certain aspect... it's not just you now. Emotional shock can be terrifying to see and quite frankly it is contagious for most people. Somebody has to hold it together, and sometimes there isn't time to debate, you just have to act.
It's definitely a different kind of fear from being at a dead end, pumped out.
adatesman wrote:
Frankly I'm rather surprised at the responses so far, and find the discussion interesting. Please continue.
Definitely an interesting discussion, and I would agree there are some responses I didn't expect
Jul 9, 2010, 5:07 PM
Post #28 of 41
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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For me the quick answer would be pumped and run out. This is where panic sets in quick and needs to be pushed back.
Having been in a simple self rescue situation, I can say that the prospect of self rescuing is less one of panic, and more of methodical decision making.
Run out and pumped, panic sets in quick and with little distraction (for me).
Self rescue, there are many other things to occupy my mind with in order to avoid panic.
YMMV. and of course, I can only imagine that it depends.
Jul 9, 2010, 7:17 PM
Post #30 of 41
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Re: [hyhuu] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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If I'm in a rescue situation then what I was fearing *might* happen while pumped and run-out *did* happen. I guess the relative fear depends on the reality of the severity of the injuries. Sprained ankle=meh. Death by harness hang=oh please god save me!
Jul 15, 2010, 6:47 AM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I don't know what sort of rescue this was, but it looks terrifying. I just saw video on the 11pm news out of Vancouver. It happened this afternoon.
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Stranded Chief base jumper rescued High winds cause thrill-seeker to get stranded on slope for more than four hours
Sylvie Paillard spaillard@squamishchief.com
A stranded base jumper is now safely back on the ground more than four hours after being blown off course while attempting to jump off the Stawamus Chief's middle peak this afternoon.
At approximately 2 p.m., Squamish Search and Rescue received a call for help after the base jumper took a dive only to get caught up in heavy winds and blown onto a ledge approximately 300 feet below.
“The parachute snagged the rock, slid down a bit and got to a place where he actually stopped on a slope in the rock,” said SAR co-ordinator Jim Lang.
Approximately 25 people from SAR and Lions Bay Search and Rescue attended, 10 of whom boarded a helicopter headed for the top of the second peak.
The team set up anchors and SAR rescuer and highly experienced climber John Howe was lowered to the as-yet unidentified man, who was discovered with a possible broken ankle, but otherwise unharmed. That meant a stretcher would not have to be used, cutting back significantly on rescue time and logistics, said Lang.
The base jumper was tethered to Howe and a team pulled both men up. The pair topped out at approximately 6:45 p.m.
During the rescue, about 50 people who happened to be hiking or climbing that afternoon were standing along the edge trying to catch a glimpse of the action, said Lang.
“One of things we had to manage was getting someone up there soon enough in order to take control of the mountain people,” said Lang.
Lang said he was very pleased at how smoothly it went, especially considering the windy conditions. He said the rescue was also made easier because the group appeared to have been prepared for possible problems, and were carrying proper equipment.
“We got the call electronically, so people are taking equipment with them so if there's a failure we hear about it right away,” said Lang. “Only a few years back, that person's partner may have had to come all the way down to tell us about it.”
Lang said he's unsure whether base jumping off the Chief is permitted.
Jul 15, 2010, 4:46 PM
Post #34 of 41
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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adatesman wrote:
Hmm.... I guess I just don't understand how some people don't get this.
Then again, it seems some folks are also skipping the whole injury part of self rescue and thinking only of the technical aspects of getting down so perhaps that plays into it. Sure, it's not hard to run down the mental checklist of what to do while sitting comfortably in your chair, but when someone's bleeding and unresponsive? Maybe that's the kind of thing that only becomes apparent when one is actually put in that kind of situation.
Frankly I'm rather surprised at the responses so far, and find the discussion interesting. Please continue.
I would guess answers have to do with preparation. The Rock Warriors who actually got something out of Arnot's book (which I still find baffling) can manage the fear of falling and exposure to a less uncomfortable level. Those who have spent time as a wilderness EMT or passed litters for hours on end down some nasty terrain feel more prepared to handle the rescue.
For me, a bad fall over dicey gear is a hard fear to shake and I get the rock-in-the-stomach feel. On the other hand, rescue kicks me into a series of checklists that are cold and methodical where there is no room for fear, only action. After the rescue, fear kicks in if it is a loved one.
Maybe falling is a real fear and rescue is more of a concern (though both can be severe).
Jul 15, 2010, 5:29 PM
Post #35 of 41
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Re: [LostinMaine] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I conjecture more people are responding "runout" because they've been in that situation and can relate, e.g. far fewer climbers have been involved in a serious accident/self - rescue situation with fractures or loss of consciousness.
A similar conjecture I'll make is that the majority of pitches being climbed by readers of this forum are of a cragging / single-pitch nature not too far from your car / crib. I'm not saying ya'll didn't climb the Nose or whatever, but that probably most of your pitches are climbed at your local crag. If most of your climbing time is spent single-pitch climbing at a small crag that isn't too remote, then you're also more likely to run into the "pumped above pro" situation than the "self-rescue" situation (beyond, say, lowering an injured climber to the ground). Hence you remember that last time where you yelled to your belayer "Yo, I'm gripped" or whatever, and the memory is scary.
(This post was edited by jjanowia on Jul 15, 2010, 5:34 PM)
Jul 15, 2010, 11:37 PM
Post #36 of 41
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Re: [jjanowia] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I've been there for both scenarios. I believe that for me the anticipation of both is far more scary than the actuality. It's that whole "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" thing.
I have been runout and stupidly scared, I've also been right at the solid pro/bolt and been equally stupidly scared. I've also been on belay and been stupidly scared for my leader.
On the other hand I have soloed and simulclimbed way up in scary country with not a care in the world. I have also had to deal with my own self rescue and calmly dealt with the situation. I've been there to carry out injured partners, it was all business then with no fear at all, no point getting scared and losing your wits when others depend on you.
So to sum up, yes, it does depend doesn't it. So in fact "It depends (c)" pretty much tells the whole story. For each of us the reaction to circumstances will be different.
Jul 16, 2010, 8:11 AM
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Re: [bill413] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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bill413 wrote:
The "mountain people" phrase conjures up some sort of image of dwarves or a tribe without much regular outside contact.
It does. I wonder if he meant the people who were hiking when the accident happened, and were going near the edge to try and watch the rescue. It boggles my mind that anyone would go near the edge of that cliff. Its something like a 1000 foot shear drop. It is amazing to me that there are people brave enough to go over that edge on a rope. Those rescuer did an awesome job. Apparently the base jumper was clinging to a tiny tree. He was 300 feet down, so there must have been at least a 700 foot drop from the ledge he was on.
Jul 16, 2010, 2:05 PM
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Re: [dingus] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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dingus wrote:
Its not armchair for me. Very hard to compare the fears 'head to head' (hehe). The accident / rescue sort of fear is quite different from the leader's fear of falling. Both situations can provoke panic attacks but beneath that threshold the fear is different. DMT
I have to provide the disclaimer that I've never done the injury/rescue scenario, but I have faced the possibility a few times.
There are two ways that these scenarios are different.
Injury/rescue is objective, and the crisis has really happened. You can make your plan from there (you hope) and then act on it (you hope again). You certainly won't be happy about the situation, but at least you'll be able to deal with it. From my limited experience, I believe that I would perform well here, provided we can make a reasonable plan. But I would not be happy.
Sketched/run-out/gonna-fall is subjective, and the worst hasn't happened yet, although maybe it will soon. The fear rides ahead of you, distorting your judgment. And that's a worst thing about fear, is the distorted judgment. If I have any adrenaline left, that will help, but we're talking sketched here, so I know I'd feel desperate. Desperate means no options, no plan.
Sometimes when I feel run-out, some trigger in my brain tells me "I wanna go home now" and believe me, that challenge is really hard to overcome.
Jul 16, 2010, 2:17 PM
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Re: [dan2see] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I've had both in the same day - scared, runnout on bad pro, went for it and fell, hit a ledge and broke my ankle. With partner managed a self rescue. Long day.
Anyway, there are injuries and then there are INJURIES.
a bone sticking out of a thigh, for example... esp from your partner's thigh... now I think that would provoke some emotions?
Jul 16, 2010, 3:30 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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As has been said before, two different fears. For me, the anticipation of a fall, those seconds right before you pitch off, are the scariest parts of actual climbing (rappelling / lowering / hanging are actually scarier to me than anything else, but that is beside the point).
However, I'd much rather be pumped and runout than injured and in need of rescue (self or not). At least with pumped and runout I've got a chance to not be injured.
Jul 16, 2010, 4:09 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Poll: Which is scarier: injury & self rescue or being pumped & run out?
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I've been in both situations and, though not on the receiving end of the rescue, the injuries victims sustained were very much life threatening. In one of those situations, we were nowhere near definitive medical care. I'll stick by what I said earlier. If I have the ability to choose between the two, of course I'll pick the runout. But when the runout is occurring, it can fill my whole world with scared.
23 /
45%
. I wonder if he meant the people who were hiking when the accident happened, and were going near the edge to try and watch the rescue. It boggles my mind that anyone would go near the edge of that cliff. Its something like a 1000 foot shear drop. It is amazing to me that there are people brave enough to go over that edge on a rope. Those rescuer did an awesome job. Apparently the base jumper was clinging to a tiny tree. He was 300 feet down, so there must have been at least a 700 foot drop from the ledge he was on. 
