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patto
Jul 15, 2010, 5:50 AM
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mheyman wrote: Even the better pictures hide details, - but - I don't the the multiple attachment pints are change camming angle, I think they are intended to give more usable rotation.
The angle between the load point and the axle changes. Thus the attachment point is essential to the camming angle. The arc of the surface in which the cable bends over is quite important.
However as acorneau rightly pointed out it isn't multiple attachments it is simply one looped attachment wrapped around a pin.
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mheyman
Jul 15, 2010, 1:25 PM
Post #27 of 140
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Yes, I see one attachement point. It looks to me as though the cable bends arouind a first pin and is attached at a second higher pin. Yes the camming angle changes with rotation. I’m thinking the odd cam shape compensates for this! Seems to me (without modeling) more rotation is available.
As I wrote from the pictures alone there are details missind in my mind.
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patto
Jul 15, 2010, 1:55 PM
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mheyman wrote: I’m thinking the odd cam shape compensates for this!
Seems to me (without modeling) more rotation is available.
You are correct. The unit has a nominal camming angle of 20 on the cam shape but has an effective camming angle of around 13. Overall though it only seems to gain around 30% range using this technique. This is similar or a little better that the gains achieved by using a dual axle design.
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j_ung
Jul 15, 2010, 2:39 PM
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It's not the range that makes these things interesting to me. It's the direct loading, which supposedly acts a little like positraction for the cam lobes -- "patented Direct Loading Camming Device system (US patent 7,014,956) applies a perfectly equalized load directly onto each lobe, eliminating the risk of inactive lobes and therefore any outbalanced forces that might compromise cam placement stability. Where rock contact with four cam lobes is not possible, Totem Cam still offers the option to load just two lobes."
They're also ridiculously flexible. Unless something has changed from the prototype I fondled at an OR show a couple years ago, they're more flexible than any other active cam available.
I'll email and ask what the availability is. If they're ready to ship when my next paycheck come in, I'm almost certainly going risk the dough to buy at least one.
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patto
Jul 15, 2010, 2:52 PM
Post #30 of 140
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j_ung wrote: It's not the range that makes these things interesting to me.
Oh for sure! But it is range that makes a cam a cam. Without range a cam is just a nut! By comfortably achieving a range comparable to C4s they have given themselves the opportunity to be competitive in other desired qualities.
If you want a decent dependable cam with good range the C4s & Dragons fit the bill. If you want lighter and slightly lower range the Metolius and WC have other offerings.
Totem cams offer unparrelleled flexibility and holding power in flares. I'm not sure I can appreciate how useful this may or may not be until I try them out on real rock.
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j_ung
Jul 15, 2010, 3:10 PM
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Aye, good points. I'm gonna risk it, though. The first time i saw them, I hated them. The first time I held them, though, I was more than a little impressed.
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cracklover
Jul 15, 2010, 4:16 PM
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For free climbing, I'll wait to play with them myself before making any judgment, though I have to say at the outset that they're damn sexy.
For clean aid climbing, they are nothing short of revolutionary. If I did much aid, I'd buy a full set yesterday.
GO
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j_ung
Jul 16, 2010, 1:01 AM
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Word is they'll accept pre orders starting 7/16. Shipping begins 8/1. $80 each. Free shipping on a whole set.
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adatesman
Jul 16, 2010, 1:52 AM
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rightarmbad
Jul 16, 2010, 11:12 AM
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At that price, they should come in cheaper than the retail of most cams in Australia.
Something is seriously wrong with gear prices over here.
Maybe the direct selling route is a good idea....
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mheyman
Jul 16, 2010, 3:07 PM
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j_ung wrote: It's not the range that makes these things interesting to me. It's the direct loading, which supposedly acts a little like positraction for the cam lobes..."
I agree. I was was just commenting on the design, and I am not even sure about what I see in the pictures.
Even more interesting it now seems to me that the the lobes are not identical or mirror images. Each pair seems to have what I will call a "load cam" and a "trigger cam". The fastening/rotation I noted is only on the "trigger cams" where the cable is looped around a pin. Connecting cables pass through the the "load cams"! Very different. Yes despite my names, all the cams will bear loads in a normal placement.
Added: Also seems to me that this design might be a bit directional and load only two cams in some situations - exactly what they are supposed to eliminate. The triggers are not going to stretch, but with different amount of rotation, one side might end up longer than the other. Then if the cam is loaded from some angles only the short side might ended loaded. Anyone else see this?
( I really should wait to see these. )
j_ung wrote: They're also ridiculously flexible.
Not a plus in terms of ease of placement in my gumby hands. Thats one of the reasons I don't like Zeros.
(This post was edited by mheyman on Jul 16, 2010, 3:25 PM)
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j_ung
Jul 16, 2010, 4:14 PM
Post #38 of 140
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mheyman wrote: j_ung wrote: They're also ridiculously flexible. Not a plus in terms of ease of placement in my gumby hands. Thats one of the reasons I don't like Zeros.
Yah, I hear you. But, if I think of all the times I've been worried about a piece of gear holding a fall, my impression is that slightly more than half of those have been because the placement was in a shallow horizontal. That could certainly be because of what I like to climb. I think I enjoy facey trad climbs more than anything else, on which I seem to run across this a lot.
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majid_sabet
Jul 16, 2010, 5:30 PM
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acorneau wrote: patto wrote: There are two weight bearing cables going to each lobe. Making twelve cables in total to the head of the unit! [image]http://www.totemcams.com/files/galeria/images/QualityInnovation/BerrikuntzaWeb.JPG[/image] To me it looks like the cable is looped around a silver pin and isn't two separate cables. [Edit for proper image.]
small cable in tight radius round a pin overlapping each other...
I do not know but anyone with any sort of mechanical knowledge will tell you that 2+2 aint 5
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kane_schutzman
Jul 16, 2010, 5:34 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: acorneau wrote: patto wrote: There are two weight bearing cables going to each lobe. Making twelve cables in total to the head of the unit! [image]http://www.totemcams.com/files/galeria/images/QualityInnovation/BerrikuntzaWeb.JPG[/image] To me it looks like the cable is looped around a silver pin and isn't two separate cables. [Edit for proper image.] small cable in tight radius round a pin overlapping each other... I do not know but anyone with any sort of mechanical knowledge will tell you that 2+2 aint 5
fuck you majid
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majid_sabet
Jul 16, 2010, 6:22 PM
Post #42 of 140
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kane_schutzman wrote: majid_sabet wrote: acorneau wrote: patto wrote: There are two weight bearing cables going to each lobe. Making twelve cables in total to the head of the unit! [image]http://www.totemcams.com/files/galeria/images/QualityInnovation/BerrikuntzaWeb.JPG[/image] To me it looks like the cable is looped around a silver pin and isn't two separate cables. [Edit for proper image.] small cable in tight radius round a pin overlapping each other... I do not know but anyone with any sort of mechanical knowledge will tell you that 2+2 aint 5 fuck you majid
wait cowboy
this sh8t is too hot to touch. give it some time and we will see how it would handles.
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mheyman
Jul 16, 2010, 6:34 PM
Post #43 of 140
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acorneau wrote: I'm not sure where you're seeing that. To me it appears that both lobes are rigged the same way the the "looped cable around a pin" system. [image]http://www.totemcams.com/files/galeria/images/TheMostVersatile/BuruZabalerakWeb.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.totemcams.com/files/galeria/images/UniqueCapabilities/30flaredWeb.JPG[/image]
You are right, Those pics don't look at all like what I was thinking. The second pin is a cam stop then?
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boadman
Jul 16, 2010, 7:43 PM
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j_ung wrote: mheyman wrote: j_ung wrote: They're also ridiculously flexible. Not a plus in terms of ease of placement in my gumby hands. Thats one of the reasons I don't like Zeros. Yah, I hear you. But, if I think of all the times I've been worried about a piece of gear holding a fall, my impression is that slightly more than half of those have been because the placement was in a shallow horizontal. That could certainly be because of what I like to climb. I think I enjoy facey trad climbs more than anything else, on which I seem to run across this a lot.
I think it's "where" rather than "what". There are more horizontal crack features in the New than most trad climbing areas except the gunks, probably. You don't run into that kind of placement on granite as much.
I definitely want to hold one of these in my hands before I fork out for them, but they look pretty cool.
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adatesman
Jul 16, 2010, 8:43 PM
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acorneau
Jul 16, 2010, 9:01 PM
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adatesman wrote: These diagrams from their patent may help explain things as well:
Those look quite a bit different than the final version.
(But thanks anyway!)
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adatesman
Jul 16, 2010, 9:43 PM
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billcoe_
Jul 16, 2010, 10:46 PM
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It's a classic pig in a poke deal. You pay and then if it sucks you still own it. For $80 -I'll wait. And I'm a serious gear whore.
The huge issue I see, is what made Aliens so great was that the head was soft and would flop easily to any direction where a placement was good. Wild Country Zeros have that function currently with the Mastercams not far behind. Yet the price on both is significantly less than these Totems, and you can even borrow your buddies first to see if you like them before you plunk down the change. With these things, you go get the bank loan first, then after your purse is empty, you will find out if you got door number 1, door number 2 - or door number 3.
No thanks.
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caughtinside
Jul 16, 2010, 11:08 PM
Post #50 of 140
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billcoe_ wrote: It's a classic pig in a poke deal. You pay and then if it sucks you still own it. For $80 -I'll wait. And I'm a serious gear whore. The huge issue I see, is what made Aliens so great was that the head was soft and would flop easily to any direction where a placement was good. Wild Country Zeros have that function currently with the Mastercams not far behind. Yet the price on both is significantly less than these Totems, and you can even borrow your buddies first to see if you like them before you plunk down the change. With these things, you go get the bank loan first, then after your purse is empty, you will find out if you got door number 1, door number 2 - or door number 3. No thanks.
You could sell off a couple of those titanium nut tools or one of your 19 hammers and try one out.
As an aside, I see this is the first cam since the cch patent expired to use the internal cam springs.
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