I know of lots. All of my DB, Trango, OP, etc., cams can be photographed inside of a crack like that.

Dave

Right,

So who is definitely purchasing oneand writing up a review? Anyone?

How many cams do you know can do this?

[image]http://www.totemcams.com/files/galeria/images/UniqueCapabilities/30flaredWeb.JPG[/image]

... covering these little beauties for the last three years....

If you're fellow reviewer can't get out then send them up to Alberta and I'll review them.

I'm a staunch trad climber BTW, and can guarantee they will be used on new routes.

I'm beginning to think these things are an internet hoax. If they're so bad-ass, then why is it taking them so long to get them out for review? It's not like they'd need to build a fricken' factory. Just machine a few dozen up and send them to someone for a test drive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Graham, but IIRC the UIAA/CE thing applies only to goods for sale in the EU. Last I checked there was no certification needed for sale in the US, whether ISO9xxx or CE/UIAA. I seem to recall a certain US-based cam company only reinstating their CE certification quite recently (coinciding with the company being put up for sale), despite being in business for quite a long time and being quite popular.

I'm beginning to think these things are an internet hoax. If they're so bad-ass, then why is it taking them so long to get them out for review? It's not like they'd need to build a fricken' factory. Just machine a few dozen up and send them to someone for a test drive.

The slow pace is doing nothing for my confidence ... quite the opposite, actually.

The 40 deg flare claim seems pretty suspect to me. Sure their cams can physically operate within a 40 degree flare but that is completely conditional on having a very high coefficient of friction, more than the conservative estimate of 0.25 which dictates a 4:1 caming ratio or traditional 14 degree cam angle.

A normal cam will pop it's lobes in a 28 degree flare, but this is also the conservative limit most commonly used for any friction holding metal on rock device. Totem cams are just going beyond the conservative range. That means that only certain textures of rock can actually hold a 40 degree flare. Those same rocks could also potentially hold traditional cams with 20 degree cam angles, but you don't see anyone making those because they aren't very safe.

Their design lets them get more torque on the lobes, but it doesn't negate the maximum angle that you can apply a force on a rock surface without slipping. If 14 degrees is the slipping angle for friction of metal on rock, you could get a power jack into that flare and it will still pop out at 28 degrees.

If people start buying these things to pop into 40 degree flares, they will be disappointed or hurt.

It's simple physics. If the coefficient of friction is 0.25, then 28 degrees is the maximum angle you can squeeze something into a flare using only friction. Any demonstration of larger flares is just rock that has a larger coefficient of friction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Graham, but IIRC the UIAA/CE thing applies only to goods for sale in the EU. Last I checked there was no certification needed for sale in the US, whether ISO9xxx or CE/UIAA. I seem to recall a certain US-based cam company only reinstating their CE certification quite recently (coinciding with the company being put up for sale), despite being in business for quite a long time and being quite popular.

or may be I am just blind and a dumbass

I'm probably the other reviewer that vegastradguy is referring to. I'll be testing them out, but possibly not at the pace that he expects. I've got a busy summer. Still, I plan to put them through the runner and in the end I'll post up my review here and on other websites. The testing begins this weekend at Tahquitz. So, since I have my paws on these things, what do you guys want to know about them?

Josh

Alright so a set is 5 units. So we need 5 people to agree to throw down the 85 dollars to split the set (assume 5 for shipping).

So far in this thread we have:
J ung
Mheyman
Suprasoup
adatesman(?)
Patto(?)
I would love to get one, but I really shouldnt be spending the money right now.

Looking on the website shipping for one cam is like 9.50 so we would really only be saving less than 5 bucks if your only getting one cam anyway. It also looks like the free shipping is on any 5 cams so we could order the 5 sizes each person wants rather than the entire set.

I really think the biggest question on everyone's mind is, "is there potential in these to revolutionize traditional climbing?" Is the first person on the block who gets a set of these going to be able to put up a slew of FAs, or are the funky placements that Totem cams will hold in too rare to make a big difference?

Well, I'll do my best at throwing these things in funky placements, setting good gear below, and jumping off... Maybe I can answer some of those questions, but I don't think there is the revolutionary potential you're imagining. You're talking about marginal placements suddenly becoming bomber and I don't think that's going to consistently happen with these things. I also think someone would get hurt if they made that assumption and pushed the cams limits assuming that these things would hold everything. That said, I can't wait to get these out on the rock to see what they can do!

Josh

Its true that goods sold in the US do not require CE Cert (but afaik, goods in europe do, or UIAA cert)- but by and large, its one of those certifications that you kinda should have because consumers are looking for it.

also, i dont actually know if by being manufactured in Spain they are required by Spain to have their CE cert before being able to be exported for sale to other countries- probably not, but who knows?

To sell climbing equipment in the EU you must have CE/EN certification. The UIAA Safety Label is optional and anyway depends on the product having CE certification.
One can manufacture anything in Europe without CE certification (obviously as we have to make stuff to the standards required in other countries for export), it is the selling or `introducing to the market´ stage that requires conformity. The `introducing to the market´is to cover not only selling, to stop McDonalds giving away poisonous toys to little kiddies for example.
Be a brave man that put cams on the market without certification though!

Let Fl be the frictional force along one face of the crack and Fn the force normal to the face of the crack. Let mu be the coefficient of static friction between cam lobe and rock.

The constraint that holds for all cams is that the ratio Fl/Fn should not exceed mu.

For regular cams, Fl/Fn equals tan(beta), where beta is the cam angle, but for Totem Cams, Fl/Fn is less than tan(beta). Hence, the same load produces more outward force than a conventional cam with the same angle.

EDITED to add: This greater outward force, however, in a downward flared crack has a downward component, which must be overcome by the upward component of the frictional force. In a conventional cam, this requires tan(beta) < tan(phi), where beta is the cam angle and phi is half the angle between the crack faces.

For a Totem cam, beta should be replaced by the effective cam angle, which is the ratio between frictional force and normal force. This angle is about 13 degrees instead of about 20.

The friction coefficient does not play a role in this derivation.

Actually, to have a review done and published you'd need to a) have your factory set up, b) have the factory pass the iso 9001, c) pass the relevant CE/UIAA safety tests, d) have all of your legal usage documentation vetted and approved, e) HAVE YOUR INSURANCE VALIDATE THE ABOVE, e) then send them out for review.

Editorial reviews are done JUST before things go to market, so that these reviews are published when the things can be bought.

just my $0.02 after several years running a manufacturing company. ;)

I think you started to see the problem but then ignored it.

No. You're considering the "horizontal" to be absolute, when it is actually relative to the rock.

In other words, if you have a cam that contacts the rock at 14 degrees, then it contacts the rock at 14 degrees! It doesn't matter if the rock face is perfectly vertical, or 20 degrees off vertical. It still generates the same frictional force.

GO