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majid_sabet
Aug 9, 2010, 11:27 PM
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marc801 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: both wrong never tie webbing directly on hangers it depends - on the hangers, the webbing, and the situation (eg: rap vs belay anchor, temporary or semi-permanent, etc.). If I'm doing a dozen raps off of GPA and the bolt anchors don't have chains or quick links (many don't), you can be damned sure me or any other climber is not leaving a pair of biners at each station, nor are we carrying twenty or more quick links. We're tying or girth hitching webbing to the hangers, as has been done for the last half century.
Last year, RRG, two climbers fell to their death when their old anchor (webbings ) broke apart. you leave webbing so does 100s of climbers and soon ,you'll have CF of webbings all over the face of the rock.
now I have learned a lot
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marc801
Aug 9, 2010, 11:45 PM
Post #27 of 140
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majid_sabet wrote: marc801 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: both wrong never tie webbing directly on hangers it depends - on the hangers, the webbing, and the situation (eg: rap vs belay anchor, temporary or semi-permanent, etc.). If I'm doing a dozen raps off of GPA and the bolt anchors don't have chains or quick links (many don't), you can be damned sure me or any other climber is not leaving a pair of biners at each station, nor are we carrying twenty or more quick links. We're tying or girth hitching webbing to the hangers, as has been done for the last half century. Last year, RRG, two climbers fell to their death when their old anchor (webbings ) broke apart. you leave webbing so does 100s of climbers and soon ,you'll have CF of webbings all over the face of the rock. now I have learned a lot
Have you ever actually spent any time in Yosemite or done any routes?
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c4c
Aug 9, 2010, 11:52 PM
Post #28 of 140
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j_ung wrote: marc801 wrote: caughtinside wrote: I stand corrected. I took another look and it likely is a triangle. I didn't realize that runner went from the lower bolt to the locker with the clove. hard to see. Just because it has a triangular component doesn't necessarily mean it's an ADT. As pointed out earlier, the key aspect of the ADT is the force multiplication and, secondarily, the lack of redundancy if constructed of a single piece of webbing. Which is exactly what I see in the picture. Plus teeny little nubs for tails. I assume these guys made it out alive, but if I climbed up to find that's what my partner built, I'd slap him in the back of the head and re-rig it before leading on (and it would take all of 30 seconds). Granted it's a slab and the leader clipped the high bolt, so bombing onto the anchor isn't likely to happen, but let's say it's a different situation. Factor 2 one of those and the safety of the entire team is not a foregone conclusion. If the supertape is old and perma-tied into a sling, it's like showing up an hour late and giftless for your date with death. Maybe death let's you kiss her, or maybe she's not that easy. Who can say?
and how exactly would you re-rig it?
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majid_sabet
Aug 9, 2010, 11:53 PM
Post #29 of 140
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marc801 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: marc801 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: both wrong never tie webbing directly on hangers it depends - on the hangers, the webbing, and the situation (eg: rap vs belay anchor, temporary or semi-permanent, etc.). If I'm doing a dozen raps off of GPA and the bolt anchors don't have chains or quick links (many don't), you can be damned sure me or any other climber is not leaving a pair of biners at each station, nor are we carrying twenty or more quick links. We're tying or girth hitching webbing to the hangers, as has been done for the last half century. Last year, RRG, two climbers fell to their death when their old anchor (webbings ) broke apart. you leave webbing so does 100s of climbers and soon ,you'll have CF of webbings all over the face of the rock. now I have learned a lot Which is why any in-situ webbing should be inspected, backed-up, cut-out and replaced, etc. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's trustworthy. Have you ever actually spent any time in Yosemite or done any routes?
no, I sit on a chair with a big belly , troll on RC and for some reasons, I happen to know all these sh*.
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kjaking
Aug 10, 2010, 12:42 AM
Post #30 of 140
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I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall.
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styndall
Aug 10, 2010, 12:57 AM
Post #31 of 140
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c4c wrote: j_ung wrote: marc801 wrote: caughtinside wrote: I stand corrected. I took another look and it likely is a triangle. I didn't realize that runner went from the lower bolt to the locker with the clove. hard to see. Just because it has a triangular component doesn't necessarily mean it's an ADT. As pointed out earlier, the key aspect of the ADT is the force multiplication and, secondarily, the lack of redundancy if constructed of a single piece of webbing. Which is exactly what I see in the picture. Plus teeny little nubs for tails. I assume these guys made it out alive, but if I climbed up to find that's what my partner built, I'd slap him in the back of the head and re-rig it before leading on (and it would take all of 30 seconds). Granted it's a slab and the leader clipped the high bolt, so bombing onto the anchor isn't likely to happen, but let's say it's a different situation. Factor 2 one of those and the safety of the entire team is not a foregone conclusion. If the supertape is old and perma-tied into a sling, it's like showing up an hour late and giftless for your date with death. Maybe death let's you kiss her, or maybe she's not that easy. Who can say? and how exactly would you re-rig it?
I'd take a single long sling, clip one end to each bolt, then tie an overhand. It's no different than any two-bolt anchor with uneven legs.
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bill413
Aug 10, 2010, 1:32 AM
Post #32 of 140
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majid_sabet wrote: marc801 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: marc801 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: both wrong never tie webbing directly on hangers it depends - on the hangers, the webbing, and the situation (eg: rap vs belay anchor, temporary or semi-permanent, etc.). If I'm doing a dozen raps off of GPA and the bolt anchors don't have chains or quick links (many don't), you can be damned sure me or any other climber is not leaving a pair of biners at each station, nor are we carrying twenty or more quick links. We're tying or girth hitching webbing to the hangers, as has been done for the last half century. Last year, RRG, two climbers fell to their death when their old anchor (webbings ) broke apart. you leave webbing so does 100s of climbers and soon ,you'll have CF of webbings all over the face of the rock. now I have learned a lot Which is why any in-situ webbing should be inspected, backed-up, cut-out and replaced, etc. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's trustworthy. Have you ever actually spent any time in Yosemite or done any routes? no, I sit on a chair with a big belly , troll on RC and for some reasons, I happen to knowcritique all these sh*. |
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whipper
Aug 10, 2010, 3:07 AM
Post #33 of 140
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kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall.
FAIL
There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none.
a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect.
Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt.
I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail.
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Rudmin
Aug 10, 2010, 4:18 AM
Post #34 of 140
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whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail.
Troll or stupid or both. That top bolt is acting as a pulley, same as in American Triangle.
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redlude97
Aug 10, 2010, 6:09 AM
Post #35 of 140
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whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail.
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styndall
Aug 10, 2010, 6:22 AM
Post #36 of 140
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Rudmin wrote: whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail. Troll or stupid or both. That top bolt is acting as a pulley, same as in American Triangle.
Nothing in the ADT acts as a pulley.
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redlude97
Aug 10, 2010, 6:25 AM
Post #37 of 140
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styndall wrote: Rudmin wrote: whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail. Troll or stupid or both. That top bolt is acting as a pulley, same as in American Triangle. Nothing in the ADT acts as a pulley.
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styndall
Aug 10, 2010, 6:49 AM
Post #38 of 140
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redlude97 wrote: styndall wrote: Rudmin wrote: whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail. Troll or stupid or both. That top bolt is acting as a pulley, same as in American Triangle. Nothing in the ADT acts as a pulley. I would consider multiplication of force a pulley effect
Then you should find a dictionary and look up the word pulley.
(This post was edited by styndall on Aug 10, 2010, 6:50 AM)
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redlude97
Aug 10, 2010, 7:09 AM
Post #39 of 140
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styndall wrote: redlude97 wrote: styndall wrote: Rudmin wrote: whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail. Troll or stupid or both. That top bolt is acting as a pulley, same as in American Triangle. Nothing in the ADT acts as a pulley. I would consider multiplication of force a pulley effect Then you should find a dictionary and look up the word pulley.
–noun, plural -leys.
1.a wheel, with a grooved rim for carrying a line, that turns in a frame or block and serves to change the direction of or to transmit force, as when one end of the line is pulled to raise a weight at the other end: one of the simple machines.
2.a combination of such wheels in a block, or of such wheels or blocks in a tackle, to increase the force applied.
3.a wheel driven by or driving a belt or the like, used to deliver force to a machine, another belt, etc., at a certain speed and torque.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pulley
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whipper
Aug 10, 2010, 10:26 AM
Post #40 of 140
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redlude97 wrote: whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. Wow, you are not the brightest....Now the TOP bolt is seeing a theoretical 2 to 1, but with friction is is most likely a 1.4 to one. The bottom bolt has no increased forces. Your highlight definition of "pulley" should disqualify you from posting again. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail. You aren't even considering the load on the pulley/anchor. Physics fail. |
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j_ung
Aug 10, 2010, 12:49 PM
Post #41 of 140
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c4c wrote: j_ung wrote: marc801 wrote: caughtinside wrote: I stand corrected. I took another look and it likely is a triangle. I didn't realize that runner went from the lower bolt to the locker with the clove. hard to see. Just because it has a triangular component doesn't necessarily mean it's an ADT. As pointed out earlier, the key aspect of the ADT is the force multiplication and, secondarily, the lack of redundancy if constructed of a single piece of webbing. Which is exactly what I see in the picture. Plus teeny little nubs for tails. I assume these guys made it out alive, but if I climbed up to find that's what my partner built, I'd slap him in the back of the head and re-rig it before leading on (and it would take all of 30 seconds). Granted it's a slab and the leader clipped the high bolt, so bombing onto the anchor isn't likely to happen, but let's say it's a different situation. Factor 2 one of those and the safety of the entire team is not a foregone conclusion. If the supertape is old and perma-tied into a sling, it's like showing up an hour late and giftless for your date with death. Maybe death let's you kiss her, or maybe she's not that easy. Who can say? and how exactly would you re-rig it?
With bolts vertically oriented, prolly with the rope clove hitched to each bolt and a hard knot (such as a fig-8 on a bight) to close me in.
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dan2see
Aug 10, 2010, 1:24 PM
Post #42 of 140
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OK, the guy in the blue shirt is leading, and moving up.
The guy with the camera is snapping the action.
So where's the belayer?
(This post was edited by dan2see on Aug 10, 2010, 1:25 PM)
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marc801
Aug 10, 2010, 1:53 PM
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dan2see wrote: OK, the guy in the blue shirt is leading, and moving up. The guy with the camera is snapping the action. So where's the belayer?
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bill413
Aug 10, 2010, 2:08 PM
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marc801 wrote: dan2see wrote: OK, the guy in the blue shirt is leading, and moving up. The guy with the camera is snapping the action. So where's the belayer? I'd guess that the photographer is the belayer.
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dan2see
Aug 10, 2010, 2:23 PM
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bill413 wrote: marc801 wrote: dan2see wrote: OK, the guy in the blue shirt is leading, and moving up. The guy with the camera is snapping the action. So where's the belayer? I'd guess that the photographer is the belayer.
Sorry, I couldn't resist posting my comment.
Recently, some safety reporters on TV were reporting how the highway cops were targeting careless driving habits. One guy was caught combing his hair with one hand, and drinking coffee with the other. "So tell me sir," asked the cop nicely, "who was driving your car?"
I'm sure the belayer is managing his left hand on brake, while he snaps his leader. I've done that too. I think my leader was safe at the time, but a one-handed belay is asking for trouble.
It really is hard to get good action shots of climbers climbing.
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lemon_boy
Aug 10, 2010, 2:40 PM
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kind of weird anchor, i would have just used the rope, 2 lockers, 2 cloves (like others).
not the best, but not the worst i've seen. i think people are not keeping the clove hitchedLower biner in mind. With this in mind:
Extension if top piece fails – negligible
Extension if bottom piece fails – pretty small
Loads are distributed, but probably not equalized, top bolt is seeing more load as it has 2 strands downward, as opposed to 1 on the lower bolt.
not the best, but given the good bolts, the fact that the leader could probably clip the first lead bolt from the belay, etc, they probably didn't die.
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majid_sabet
Aug 10, 2010, 2:55 PM
Post #47 of 140
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its funny that we analyze the sh*t out of these type of anchors or rigs via a single photo and clearly see how and what climbers rig out there but then when things go south and become bloody, we run like chickens with no head trying to understand WTF went wrong. Worse than that, we even become expert and argue for ever trying to point out that" climbers with that kind of wall experience will never do such things"
seriously, we do not know WTF is out there
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marc801
Aug 10, 2010, 2:58 PM
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dan2see wrote: I think my leader was safe at the time, but a one-handed belay is asking for trouble.
BTW, on the climb in the photo in question - a 5.11 friction slab - and where the leader is in the photo...a lead fall from there could probably be caught with two fingers. I've caught 50' sliding slab falls without even weighting the anchor.
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dan2see
Aug 10, 2010, 3:03 PM
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marc801 wrote: dan2see wrote: I think my leader was safe at the time, but a one-handed belay is asking for trouble. No, if you know what you're doing, it isn't. But then you say you "think" your leader was safe instead of knowing he was safe, so maybe for you it is asking for trouble. BTW, on the climb in the photo in question - a 5.11 friction slab - and where the leader is in the photo...a lead fall from there could probably be caught with two fingers. I've caught 50' sliding slab falls without even weighting the anchor.
Yes.
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redlude97
Aug 10, 2010, 3:13 PM
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whipper wrote: redlude97 wrote: whipper wrote: kjaking wrote: I am surprised that nobody has thought to comment on force multiplication due to pulley effects. The belayer himself is putting more than his body weight on the lower bolt. But I guess he would be pulled upward in a leader fall anyways, so w/e. If the climber had clipped through what the leader is using to anchor himself, there would be big problems in a fall. Wow, you are not the brightest....Now the TOP bolt is seeing a theoretical 2 to 1, but with friction is is most likely a 1.4 to one. The bottom bolt has no increased forces. Your highlight definition of "pulley" should disqualify you from posting again. FAIL There is no pulley effect, a pulley requires a mechanical advantage, there is none. a lot of n00bs on here seem to misunderstand pulley systems. always ask yourself if I pull 1 foot of rope here, how high does the load move....if it is 1 foot, then there is no multiplication of forces, it is a 1 to 1 redirect. Any way it doesnt even matter in this case, as the load is split (albeit poorly) due ot the clove hitch pulling down on the lower bolt. I wouldnt set it up like this, but I wouldn't give a fuck if my partner did...it is not going to fail. You aren't even considering the load on the pulley/anchor. Physics fail.
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