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vegastradguy
Sep 8, 2010, 3:26 AM
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olderic wrote: vegastradguy wrote: perhaps they weren't following the standard local ethic, but thats really beside the point. the party of three were being douchebags, which doesnt really help anyone- they could have been more polite and had a little patience, and maybe even helped educate the OP on the local ethic- but god forbid we should actually be kind and help out people when we're on a mission to climb a two pitch route. There were two parties of 3. Maria is most often done as a 3 pitch climb. The OP doesn't come across here as willing to be educated. I imagine that was even more of the case in person. Sorry Mr. Nice guy - 3 strikes.
whatever- nothing at the gunks should take more than an hour, ninety minutes tops to climb- the second party could have waited 10 minutes, it wouldnt have killed them.
i'd also disagree on the OP not willing to be educated- i'd bet good money that he'd be totally cool about things if the party who had approached him had been cool as well. and if he wasnt, well, tough shit, he was there first, such is life.
finally, it does sound like the second party that showed up ended up doing what i would have- soloed past and climbed a different route, although i would have been more polite about it.
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curt
Sep 8, 2010, 3:42 AM
Post #52 of 149
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dugl33 wrote: brianri wrote: The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head. This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote> **************** Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers...
Actually, that's far more an artifact of the William's guide books than real Gunks tradition. It's the world according to Dick--or, more accurately, the way Dick would like the world to be. 
Curt
edited to fix cheesetit...
(This post was edited by curt on Sep 8, 2010, 5:22 AM)
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louBlissab
Sep 8, 2010, 4:25 AM
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Hey Ckirkwood9,
I am generally in total agreement with you on this issue. It would be my guess that this situation occurred this past Labor Day weekend, i.e. the percentage stays the same...but the number jackasses increases(attitudes, incompentence,
obliviousness and unsafe practices).
Its one thing to tie-up a popular route for an extended period of time, but you clearly stated that your group would be off the route in ten minutes or so.
Therefore, in my opinion, the proper reply will be...wait the ten minutes, or find another route or go back the gym and climb plastic, no matter if you where top roping or not. Fuck the ettiquette, you paid your $15.00 and you got to that route first (there in lies the ettiquette).
That said, I wonder if you could have avoided this entire situation (introducing climbing to a new person) by selecting a less popular route in the Trapps, where the jackasses congregate less or maybe just drive a 1.2 miles west and introduce your new rock climber to Peterskill. Which may be a better place for instruction and gaining confidence.
In any event, good luck in the future. The Gunks never ceases to amaze me.
AB
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jakedatc
Sep 8, 2010, 4:34 AM
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brianri wrote: dugl33 wrote: brianri wrote: The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head. This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote> **************** Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers. I'm not sure where you climb in CA but imagine if you went to Joshua Tree and most of the popular climbs had a top-rope dangling off the first pitch. That is what it can be like at the Gunks on a weekend. Either way, The gear has to get cleaned somehow. I bet if the guy wasn't as pushy the new climber could have cleaned the gear on the way down and been out of the way. If they didn't know how or didn't have the skills to clean the anchor yet someone can run up the first half of Frogs head in 5 minutes and be off of it. Leaders may have the right of way in a true TR group situation but this was someone cleaning the route.. wait your freaking turn. what if the group of 3 was cleaning the 2nd pitch.. are you going to try to tell the non leaders to go down? no. we gave some guys saturday the evil eye when he led Ants line with way too much effort and then his partner cleaned it.. then he started talking about TRing Ents line.. luckily his other friends chimed in that we were waiting and we didn't have to say anything but I would not have been cool with that.
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RolonRolon
Sep 8, 2010, 4:43 AM
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I've never climbed at the gunks but that's a no-go out here on the west coast. Alas, you east coasters are known to be a bit pushy. When I first started climbing, I thought it was really bad etiquette to climb under a party on a multipitch route, even if they were two or three pitches up. I still hardly ever climb below a party. I'd much rather walk two minutes to the next route and have it to myself and not try and push up the other climbers' asses.
I honestly can't believe some people think this is somewhat legit. I've never heard of "leader priority." Just don't be a dick head and if they say they don't want to share the route for the safety of their partner, don't be a fucking asshole.
(This post was edited by RolonRolon on Sep 8, 2010, 4:44 AM)
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 8, 2010, 4:53 AM
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brianri wrote: dugl33 wrote: brianri wrote: The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head. This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through! **************** Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers. I'm not sure where you climb in CA but imagine if you went to Joshua Tree and most of the popular climbs had a top-rope dangling off the first pitch. That is what it can be like at the Gunks on a weekend.
Well yes, the popular climbs at Jtree do have top-ropes on them all weekend - hence, they're the popular climbs, statistically speaking. Doesn't mean they're the best ones, often far from it. They're the 'easily TR-able and moderate' climbs, and any local knows to avoid them. Regardless, we're not talking about a TR situation here, I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding that.
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vegastradguy
Sep 8, 2010, 5:14 AM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: Regardless, we're not talking about a TR situation here, I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding that.
probably because the OP explicitly states that they had set up the first pitch as a TR for their newbie friend, with no intention of going to the top of the route, instead opting to only TR the first pitch.
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jt512
Sep 8, 2010, 5:14 AM
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Reality check: the route in question is 5.6.
Jay
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curt
Sep 8, 2010, 5:27 AM
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jt512 wrote: Reality check: the route in question is 5.6. Jay
Well, that's grade inflation for you. Frog's Head was rated 5.4 in the 1964 Art Gran guide and rated 5.5 in the Blue and Red William's guides. It is currently rated 5.6- (yes, there apparently is such a thing) in the Gray Dick.
Curt
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moose_droppings
Sep 8, 2010, 5:39 AM
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brianri wrote: dugl33 wrote: The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head. This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote> **************** Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers. I'm not sure where you climb in CA but imagine if you went to Joshua Tree and most of the popular climbs had a top-rope dangling off the first pitch. That is what it can be like at the Gunks on a weekend.
A regular post has priority over a cheesetitted post.
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brianri
Sep 8, 2010, 2:35 PM
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jakedatc wrote: brianri wrote: dugl33 wrote: brianri wrote: This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote> <quote> Either way, The gear has to get cleaned somehow. I bet if the guy wasn't as pushy the new climber could have cleaned the gear on the way down and been out of the way. If they didn't know how or didn't have the skills to clean the anchor yet someone can run up the first half of Frogs head in 5 minutes and be off of it. Leaders may have the right of way in a true TR group situation but this was someone cleaning the route.. wait your freaking turn. what if the group of 3 was cleaning the 2nd pitch.. are you going to try to tell the non leaders to go down? no. we gave some guys saturday the evil eye when he led Ants line with way too much effort and then his partner cleaned it.. then he started talking about TRing Ents line.. luckily his other friends chimed in that we were waiting and we didn't have to say anything but I would not have been cool with that. Yeah in this particular case I would have accommodated them, especially because it sounds as if they were reasonably nice about it, but I do think it is bad judgment to top-rope a classic trad line. Ant's Line is a good example of a route that is gang top-roped all day long. I've led Ant's Line while people have Ent's Line top-roped. Many times the rope is just hanging there and no one is actually climbing on it. I've moved top-ropes aside to lead a route at the Gunks. Rather then deal with it I've been hiking down to the end of the Trapps lately and getting away from the maddening crowds.
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brianri
Sep 8, 2010, 2:40 PM
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"moose_droppings> wrote: A regular post has priority over a cheesetitted post.
What are you 12? Thank you for your eloquent contribution to the discussion.
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jakedatc
Sep 8, 2010, 2:50 PM
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brianri wrote: jakedatc wrote: brianri wrote: dugl33 wrote: brianri wrote: This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote> <quote> Either way, The gear has to get cleaned somehow. I bet if the guy wasn't as pushy the new climber could have cleaned the gear on the way down and been out of the way. If they didn't know how or didn't have the skills to clean the anchor yet someone can run up the first half of Frogs head in 5 minutes and be off of it. Leaders may have the right of way in a true TR group situation but this was someone cleaning the route.. wait your freaking turn. what if the group of 3 was cleaning the 2nd pitch.. are you going to try to tell the non leaders to go down? no. we gave some guys saturday the evil eye when he led Ants line with way too much effort and then his partner cleaned it.. then he started talking about TRing Ents line.. luckily his other friends chimed in that we were waiting and we didn't have to say anything but I would not have been cool with that. Yeah in this particular case I would have accommodated them, especially because it sounds as if they were reasonably nice about it, but I do think it is bad judgment to top-rope a classic trad line. Ant's Line is a good example of a route that is gang top-roped all day long. I've led Ant's Line while people have Ent's Line top-roped. Many times the rope is just hanging there and no one is actually climbing on it. I've moved top-ropes aside to lead a route at the Gunks. Rather then deal with it I've been hiking down to the end of the Trapps lately and getting away from the maddening crowds. you really have a hard time with this quoting thing don't you.... But still. they were doing the route as a party of 3.. it doesn't matter if they were belaying from the ground or from the anchor.. they were there and doing the route. it's not like they were doing laps on it. If the leader had stayed up at the anchor and belayed the others up there would be less confusion. (not that i'd do that for the first half of frogs head, holy hot) Now the guides who set up camp at the uberfall.. solo up the chimney and drop 2 ropes down Rhodo and Laurel and then spend all day on them. that is a dick move that is very common.
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carabiner96
Sep 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
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brianri wrote: "moose_droppings> wrote: A regular post has priority over a cheesetitted post. What are you 12? Thank you for your eloquent contribution to the discussion.
Moose is right. You have no idea what you're talking about, cheesetitter.
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mlcrisis
Sep 8, 2010, 3:11 PM
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ckirkwood, since i was there, and was witnessing the whole thing, and discussed it with ya right after....trust me, they were in the wrong. Any other assumptions by folks here are mistaken...the guys were rude and out of line...had no manners and I am sure their mom's are not so proud.
Also, this same day, saw someone throw a rope to rap, without warning, over a leader on a pretty darn hard climb...
Note to self, don't climb on weekends in the gunks.
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brianri
Sep 8, 2010, 3:14 PM
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<quote>
you really have a hard time with this quoting thing don't you....
Sorry about the quoting thing. I'm basically in agreement with you. This particular instance is not a good case for trashing top-roping at the Gunks. There are plenty of other better cases as you point out.
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carabiner96
Sep 8, 2010, 3:19 PM
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brianri wrote: <quote> you really have a hard time with this quoting thing don't you....
Sorry about the quoting thing. I'm basically in agreement with you. This particular instance is not a good case for trashing top-roping at the Gunks. There are plenty of other better cases as you point out.
Nothing but a sack of nipples mixed with velveeta.
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funnelator
Sep 8, 2010, 3:25 PM
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Yeah, the whole thing about leader priority, as has been discussed before, is an elitist load of shite. It's first come first served at the gunks, according to the people who own and manage the land. Don't like it? Take it up with head ranger Hank.
As for congested belay stations, falling rocks, falling ropes, etc., as you get to know the gunks better it becomes very easy to avoid all of these things without adopting a holier than gumby though attitude.
Also, many climbers at the gunks do in fact act like the hypothetical cali dude from up thread. "What are you doing?" "Ok, cool." "We're thinking of doing this." "Cool."
Of course, unlike cali folks, we are able to form complex sentences again when we get back to work on Monday. :-) Just teasing.
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carabiner96
Sep 8, 2010, 3:27 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: brianri wrote: <quote> you really have a hard time with this quoting thing don't you.... Sorry about the quoting thing. I'm basically in agreement with you. This particular instance is not a good case for trashing top-roping at the Gunks. There are plenty of other better cases as you point out.
Nothing but a sack of nipples mixed with velveeta.
Oh for fucks sake.
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boymeetsrock
Sep 8, 2010, 3:27 PM
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In reply to: carabiner96 wrote: brianri wrote: <quote> you really have a hard time with this quoting thing don't you.... Sorry about the quoting thing. I'm basically in agreement with you. This particular instance is not a good case for trashing top-roping at the Gunks. There are plenty of other better cases as you point out. Nothing but a sack of nipples mixed with velveeta.
Apparently quite a few people are having trouble with the mysterious quote function...
I would agree with the OP that the offending party was offensive. Its a crowded place on a busy holiday weekend. Proper manners go a long way toward resolving all issues. Unfortunately not everyone is so lucky as to have learned this... Good on the OP for keeping his cool.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 8, 2010, 3:45 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: Regardless, we're not talking about a TR situation here, I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding that. probably because the OP explicitly states that they had set up the first pitch as a TR for their newbie friend, with no intention of going to the top of the route, instead opting to only TR the first pitch.
As I said, it's semantics. Anybody who read the post could see that's not what was happening. People just fly off the handle when they see the word 'toprope' mixed in with 'trad route' (not my word). ZOMG! Toproping! The humanity!
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xtrmecat
Sep 8, 2010, 4:10 PM
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I travel to climb, a lot. Nowhere I have been is it even remotely acceptable(on this continent) to climb through another party without consent. Weaksauce for even asking in most circumstances on 2 pitch. Ratings, speed, lead vs TR, none of this matters anywhere I have been. I guess the euros do this semi regularly, and even they go to blows over it from time to time.
Second party are just lame dudes. Page two had a left coast type guy with the more likely encounter I would have seen, no biggy, give us a minute and we are off. Cool enough.
It is a 5.6 at best, so where else are you going to take a newish climber. Popular or not, it was their turn, they were on it, not hogging it. Go somewhere else. If that is your lead grade and options are slim to get on something else, sit down, bust out your lunch, and take a number. You want to climb it, being in a hurry, or doing it your way when someone is already on it, is just selfish anywhere, not just on the east coast.
That would go for anything, not just a popular 5.6.
Burly Bob
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moose_droppings
Sep 8, 2010, 4:37 PM
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brianri wrote: moose_droppings wrote: A regular post has priority over a cheesetitted post. What are you 12? Thank you for your eloquent contribution to the discussion.
I said it in the same spirit as most of the other elitist eloquent posts that were contributing to this thread.
If it came off as being a 12 year old, then I hit the nail on the head.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 8, 2010, 4:39 PM)
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petsfed
Sep 8, 2010, 4:39 PM
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Well, I suppose there's good reason to favor leading over toproping, provided that both parties get to the base of the route at the same time. Leading is faster, typically. However, pitches are like sex partners. If somebody else jumps on while I'm still on and they haven't cleared it with me first, it might come to blows.
Single pitch separation is fine though, 2 is better to prevent crowding at the belay. I once hung out on a belay ledge for 2 hours because my leader couldn't clip the belay anchor because a party rapping down from them couldn't get their shit together. Two parties at one anchor always sucks.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Sep 8, 2010, 4:40 PM)
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TradEddie
Sep 8, 2010, 4:47 PM
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funnelator wrote: Yeah, the whole thing about leader priority, as has been discussed before, is an elitist load of shite. It's first come first served at the gunks, according to the people who own and manage the land. Don't like it? Take it up with head ranger Hank.
Or Dick Williams for that matter, nowhere in the guidebooks that I have does he suggest that leaders have any primacy over groups already there. He advises topropers not to hog a climb for too long and not to leave a TR unattended, but his descriptions of leaders rights are for groups arriving simultaneously, or a group leading an easier route to TR another. Maybe his older books said differently, anyone?
TE
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