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jt512
Sep 18, 2010, 10:36 PM
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I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: Pros: -easier ratchet in a hauling setup should your second need rescuing, -easier to pull in rope as compared to ATC or Reverso in guide mode. -some safety benefit for leader if belayer loses conciousness. Cons: -Heavier and more costly than similar autolocking/autoblocking setup i.e. Reverso or Cinch. -easier to drop than tube style devices. -more advanced rappel or self lower setup than a common double rope rappel. -higher force in falls, partially dependent on fall factor and belayer. -can't belay two seconds as in a double rope setup without added complication. Not an all inclusive list. Personally, I feel the pros are outweighed by the cons. Let me make this simple for you. Con:
Has the potential to produce a high enough impact force to cause your belay anchor to fail, and thus kill you along with your partners. How can any list of "pros" outweigh that? Jay Real easy, the event just needs to be rare...
Well, it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event.
Jay
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potreroed
Sep 20, 2010, 5:10 PM
Post #77 of 92
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kennoyce wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm a gri-gri man myself, sport or trad, single pitch or multi-pitch but I always carry a back-up device (ATC guide) on multi-pitch and you should too. I always carry a back-up device too, it's called the munter hitch. 
Yeah, I know and use the munter when I have to; I also know several ways to make belay/rappel devices out of regular carabiners but I still always carry a spare atc on multi-pitch routes.
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spikeddem
Sep 20, 2010, 5:20 PM
Post #78 of 92
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jt512 wrote: I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: Pros: -easier ratchet in a hauling setup should your second need rescuing, -easier to pull in rope as compared to ATC or Reverso in guide mode. -some safety benefit for leader if belayer loses conciousness. Cons: -Heavier and more costly than similar autolocking/autoblocking setup i.e. Reverso or Cinch. -easier to drop than tube style devices. -more advanced rappel or self lower setup than a common double rope rappel. -higher force in falls, partially dependent on fall factor and belayer. -can't belay two seconds as in a double rope setup without added complication. Not an all inclusive list. Personally, I feel the pros are outweighed by the cons. Let me make this simple for you. Con:
Has the potential to produce a high enough impact force to cause your belay anchor to fail, and thus kill you along with your partners. How can any list of "pros" outweigh that? Jay Real easy, the event just needs to be rare... Well, it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Jay
Frequency of rock fall knocking belayer unconscious vs. frequency of FF2'ing onto anchor...don't know how they compare, but they're sure as hell both infrequent events.
As others mentioned too, one could belay from a bit below the anchor to reduce the fall factor and give a much more dynamic belay. Can be a bit harder to proactively protect oneself from rock fall in comparison to an FF2 fall.
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healyje
Sep 20, 2010, 7:00 PM
Post #79 of 92
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spikeddem wrote: Frequency of rock fall knocking belayer unconscious vs. frequency of FF2'ing onto anchor...don't know how they compare, but they're sure as hell both infrequent events.
Given the frequency of folks with grigris simply dropping people, I'd say rocks hitting belayers and high FF falls at the start of pitches all but don't happen comparatively. The odds of being dropped by a belayer with a grigri are incredibly higher than either of those events. Not sure I see the point in wanting to introduce those kind of odds into multipitch trad climbing.
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camhead
Sep 20, 2010, 8:07 PM
Post #80 of 92
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For what it's worth, there was an accident in Zion a few years ago involving Flyin' Bryan and Ammon McNeely, in which the leader fell, dislodged a rock, and knocked the belayer unconscious.
One, and possibly two lives were saved by a gri gri. They would have been fucked with ATCs.
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healyje
Sep 20, 2010, 8:56 PM
Post #81 of 92
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camhead wrote: For what it's worth, there was an accident in Zion a few years ago involving Flyin' Bryan and Ammon McNeely, in which the leader fell, dislodged a rock, and knocked the belayer unconscious. One, and possibly two lives were saved by a gri gri. They would have been fucked with ATCs.
And that same year (or any year) how many people worldwide were dropped by people with grigris? I'm guessing thousands.
[ Edit: Also, if it was Ammon and Bryan they were probably aid climbing and I have no qualms with using grigris for that. ]
(This post was edited by healyje on Sep 20, 2010, 9:06 PM)
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camhead
Sep 20, 2010, 9:29 PM
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healyje wrote: camhead wrote: For what it's worth, there was an accident in Zion a few years ago involving Flyin' Bryan and Ammon McNeely, in which the leader fell, dislodged a rock, and knocked the belayer unconscious. One, and possibly two lives were saved by a gri gri. They would have been fucked with ATCs. And that same year (or any year) how many people worldwide were dropped by people with grigris? I'm guessing thousands. [ Edit: Also, if it was Ammon and Bryan they were probably aid climbing and I have no qualms with using grigris for that. ]
What is the point that you are trying to make with that comparison? You can't compare objective hazards versus user errors.
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spikeddem
Sep 20, 2010, 9:47 PM
Post #83 of 92
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camhead wrote: healyje wrote: camhead wrote: For what it's worth, there was an accident in Zion a few years ago involving Flyin' Bryan and Ammon McNeely, in which the leader fell, dislodged a rock, and knocked the belayer unconscious. One, and possibly two lives were saved by a gri gri. They would have been fucked with ATCs. And that same year (or any year) how many people worldwide were dropped by people with grigris? I'm guessing thousands. [ Edit: Also, if it was Ammon and Bryan they were probably aid climbing and I have no qualms with using grigris for that. ] What is the point that you are trying to make with that comparison? You can't compare objective hazards versus user errors.
Thanks, Camhead, that's exactly what I was going to post.
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healyje
Sep 20, 2010, 9:47 PM
Post #84 of 92
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camhead wrote: What is the point that you are trying to make with that comparison? You can't compare objective hazards versus user errors.
Risk is risk. Going up on an aid climb where you know there is a potential for loose block or introducing grigris to multipitch free climbing when you know how many people get dropped using them - I fail to see the difference in the end from an adoption of risk perspective.
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I_do
Sep 20, 2010, 9:51 PM
Post #85 of 92
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healyje wrote: camhead wrote: What is the point that you are trying to make with that comparison? You can't compare objective hazards versus user errors. Risk is risk. Going up on an aid climb where you know there is a potential for loose block or introducing grigris to multipitch free climbing when you know how many people get dropped using them - I fail to see the difference in the end from an adoption of risk perspective.
It's really not that hard, a lot of the problems with a gri-gri come from inproper use, use it properly and you are not in the risk group for people getting randomly dropped by user error and can still benefit from the assisted locking.
Also it is a little late to introduce gri-gri's to mulitpitch free climbing isn't it...
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redlude97
Sep 20, 2010, 10:55 PM
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People regularly get dropped with an atc all around the world as well, does that mean it is unsuitable for multipitch? Will everyone need to start using hip belays? You never hear about those accidents anymore
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healyje
Sep 20, 2010, 11:32 PM
Post #88 of 92
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redlude97 wrote: People regularly get dropped with an atc all around the world as well, does that mean it is unsuitable for multipitch? Will everyone need to start using hip belays? You never hear about those accidents anymore
What do you wager the ratio of grigri to ATC drops is? I'd guess it's a very big ratio.
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vegastradguy
Sep 20, 2010, 11:48 PM
Post #89 of 92
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healyje wrote: spikeddem wrote: Frequency of rock fall knocking belayer unconscious vs. frequency of FF2'ing onto anchor...don't know how they compare, but they're sure as hell both infrequent events. Given the frequency of folks with grigris simply dropping people, I'd say rocks hitting belayers and high FF falls at the start of pitches all but don't happen comparatively. The odds of being dropped by a belayer with a grigri are incredibly higher than either of those events. Not sure I see the point in wanting to introduce those kind of odds into multipitch trad climbing.
Focusing on the possibility of getting dropped because someone is using a particular belay device is silly, imho.
Its much better to focus on what kind of belayer your partner is. There are plenty of folks out there that I wouldnt trust my life to regardless of what device they are using, just as there are plenty of people that I'll trust my life to under any conditions.
And, for the record, I almost exclusively use a cinch on multipitch trad and have for years.
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healyje
Sep 20, 2010, 11:56 PM
Post #90 of 92
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By all means "devices don't drop people, people do" applies. But when the question is a blanket 'GRIGRI for multipitch' then you're dealing with the overall stats and the reality is that if you could analyze dropping stats the overwhelming majority would likely be grigris. Now you could make the claim that people moving to multipitch are all competent belayers regardless of their device of choice, but I think that would be a pretty bold assertion in these times. It personally doesn't make me particularly happy to see someone pull out anything but an ATC when I go climbing with a new person. When they pull out a grigri a yellow light always goes off.
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vegastradguy
Sep 21, 2010, 12:06 AM
Post #91 of 92
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healyje wrote: By all means "devices don't drop people, people do" applies. But when the question is a blanket 'GRIGRI for multipitch' then you're dealing with the overall stats and the reality is that if you could analyze dropping stats the overwhelming majority would likely be grigris. Now you could make the claim that people moving to multipitch are all competent belayers regardless of their device of choice, but I think that would be a pretty bold assertion in these times. It personally doesn't make me particularly happy to see someone pull out anything but an ATC when I go climbing with a new person. When they pull out a grigri a yellow light always goes off.
a prime reason not to do a multipitch route with someone you havent ever climbed with before.
i would also argue that for me, whenever i climb with someone new, the yellow light is on, if not the red. its their job to convince me to turn those lights off.
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healyje
Sep 21, 2010, 1:52 AM
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Multipitch is all we have so we at Beacon and so take beginners in stride in that regard.
(This post was edited by healyje on Sep 21, 2010, 1:53 AM)
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