A question has been raised about the ability of the belayer to make a proper anchor, as indicating general competence: see Att'd.

The rigging used relied on the belay loop with two carabiners not directly connected. I do not know the usual kN for those, but it is usually relied on. I don't see that as an issue here.

Majid's drawing seems to show two ways to make a redirect belay; but some posters do not use that, doing it as in the first photo. I think now that an ATC is good only for rappelling, however many do use it for belay. A Reverso now seems much better for belay. Both are always a two-strand pulley, so a redirect makes a four-strand pulley?

I suspect now that the accident was directly belayer error, not coordinating his hands correctly to lower under device control, however it was rigged; but that will not be known. I still don't know what should be done for a safe, reliable top-belay. Any method works perfectly -- until a climber falls.

LL
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Pffft. I don't believe you. Why would you use a munter? Lock off before you release the autoblock and it is all good.

If you need to friction belays in series to lower somebody (of regular weight) then something is wrong.

(Yes, I have lowered off my reverso on quite a few occasions.)

Think about it: when a plaquette style device is flipped out of autoblocking mode, but is still attached to the anchor, it becomes effectively useless as a friction device until one redirects the break strand behind the device.

Hence one should keep the brake strand behind the device in a locked off position like I suggested. If you do lock it off then it is no different from a regular lowering.

If you don't lock off then sure it can get pretty bad pretty quickly. But that is the same with all belaying or lowering.

1. The brake strand MUST be redirected behind the device.

2. Some backup must be in place. It is very easy to loose control of the situation when flipping a loaded device. A munter is one possibility, though certainly not the most efficient. IMO, a better option is a friction hitch on the brake strand and attached to my belay loop. Whatever, there just really, really needs to be some backup in place.

That's not the issue he's alluding to. When a climber is hanging on a Reverso, and you want to transition to a lower, then the device needs to be flipped around out of autoblcoking mode and in to standard tube style mode. Before you flip the device, two things need to happen:

1. The brake strand MUST be redirected behind the device.

2. Some backup must be in place. It is very easy to loose control of the situation when flipping a loaded device. A munter is one possibility, though certainly not the most efficient. IMO, a better option is a friction hitch on the brake strand and attached to my belay loop. Whatever, there just really, really needs to be some backup in place.

The point of the munter (or some other backup) is not for the lower itself, but to guard against the very abrupt transition from autoblocking mode to completely released when one flips a loaded reverso or other plaquette style device. They tend not to gradually release, and instead suddenly go almost frictionless. Think about it: when a plaquette style device is flipped out of autoblocking mode, but is still attached to the anchor, it becomes effectively useless as a friction device until one redirects the break strand behind the device. Not having a backup in place when performing this transition is just plain foolish. A munter is one option.

You should be aware that this is an argument that patto has had (and lost) before on these forums. Yet, for some reason he still persists.

Someone please educate me: Is there some major difference related to this matter between the Reverso and the Reverso 3?

I don't have any problem lowering someone in a perfectly controlled manner with the Reverso 3 - you hang onto the brake strand, use a biner for a lever and ease 'er on down.

Sorry I didn't know you where the official arbiter.

How did I lose the argument?

Someone please educate me: Is there some major difference related to this matter between the Reverso and the Reverso 3? I don't have any problem lowering someone in a perfectly controlled manner with the Reverso 3 - you hang onto the brake strand, use a biner for a lever and ease 'er on down.

Oh, and just restating that you have (so far) apparently gotten away with your inherently dangerous method, doesn't count.

If using your hand to hold the brake strand of a belay device in locked position is dangerous then that would imply that all belaying is dangerous. A lead catch has far higher forces held by a locked off belay device.

In an autoblock scenario, the belay device is hanging, and getting the brake strand to a lock position without a redirect is very difficult (or, depending where your anchor is, impossible).

just a question to you patto: on the occasions where you released the autoblock, was there:
- friction (rope drag) still in the system up to your second?
- a light climber to be lowered.

Because, the few times that I released the atc-guide, I had to unblock it with my foot (sling in ATC, redirected ) leading to a sudden, surprising and complete release onto the munter. Maybe that's different with a reverso?

basically, when the device is levered out of autolock position, if the brake is not redirected up above the device, the brake side of the rope is parallel with the loaded strand- which in an ATC/tube style device, is the point of least friction. redirecting the brake up above the device puts the brake side of the rope in the position of most friction and therefore much more control. a backup is also a good idea as well.

if you read the instructions on the Reverso 3 (and you should always read the instructions on any device), it will tell you this and provide images as well.

As I said. The brake strand must be locked off. Nobody is doubting that.

No there really really doesn't need to be a back up. If you are locked off the you are locked off. If you can't handle an increasing load on a locked off belay then you SHOULDN'T BE BELAYING!

I thoroughly read the instructions when I got it, and recall nothing about backing up. hang on a sec...I'm gonna check.

OK, I'm back. Yeah, it says nothing about what you speak of. I understand that with an ATC what you are saying makes sense. The Reverso 3 is not an ATC, however and lowering either light or heavy climbers with the manufacturers recommended method simply isn't a problem...not for me anyway. Manufacturer says to hold the brake strand and lever with a biner. The end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YDB1jj21s
http://www.petzl.com/...leasing_reverso3.gif

Difficult or impossible!?
1. Take right hand place on brake strand.
2. Move brake strand into locked off position and grip firmly.

Seriously, it isn't that hard!

I have released and lowered numerous times. With climbers of all weights including heavy climbers. Sometimes with the climber directly (1m) below the anchor.

Surely the second time wouldn't have been surprising? Expect a quick release because that is how the device works. If you are locked off properly then all is good.

Have a look at this video:

http://climbinglife.com/tech-tips/releasing-an-atc-guide-belay-video.html

Eli is a UIAGM guide and senior member of the AMGA instructor pool. He knows what he's talking about. The method he demonstrates is one excellent way to deal with this issue. If Eli needs a backup, you should probably have one too. The fact that you haven't dropped anyone yet is not evidence that your methods are safe. Look in to the familiarity heuristic: You're practically a poster boy.

In any case, I'm done with this discussion. It appears we may have to agree to disagree. I'm OK with that. Safe and happy climbing to you!

After watching that video, I am amazed that anybody would consider buying an ATC-Gude.

Jay

with all due respect, tell us you know the difference between reverso when "locked off" and reverso in "auto-block" mode.

Understandable. When it's done at that pace, it does seem to take forever. If one just does it as opposed to slowly talking through every step for teaching purposes, it's actually pretty quick. Still, there's no denying it's more cumbersome than other direct belay methods. I personally find its advantages outweigh its disadvantages in many situations. That said, I also use a lot of munters. They're all just tools in the toolbox.

I see no benefit great enough that could offset the need for such a cluster-fuck just to lower your partner. Actually, I see no benefit to these autoblocking devices at all. But we've been through this before.

Of course I'm sure that there are people who will buy the device just to be able to rig the cluster-fuck.

Jay

I see no benefit great enough that could offset the need for such a cluster-fuck just to lower your partner. Actually, I see no benefit to these autoblocking devices at all. But we've been through this before.

Of course I'm sure that there are people who will buy the device just to be able to rig the cluster-fuck.

Jay