I like it, I like it alot.

And people say you can't learn anything useful on RC.com...

I feel like even a little rope drag can make rope tugs pretty ambiguous. Most of the people I climb with feel the same way but if it works for you, rock on.

I bought walkie talkies back when I started doing multi pitch and used them a few times, now they just collect dust on the shelf. It's not so much that they don't work, as they are just one more thing hanging from my harness that doesn't REALLY need to be there. Kind of like back up belay devices, dedicated prusiks, PAS's, etc...

Not sure I'd ever advise the belayer to give any tugs on the rope. Not a comfortable feeling if the leader isn't yet tied in...

Okay this might work if there is only one pitch. However quite recently I climbed outside, couldn't hear the leader at all, kept saying on belay, he couldn't hear me, I waited, tugged the rope , nothing,
I was in such a quandary ,praying I was being belayed, then I figured, I sure hope so , then I thought well hopefully its an easy climb so if I'm not on belay I'll manage for a while.
At least until I feel some tightness, but forget about making a mistake or rest,.

I actually think letting down all that slack at the end would be quite helpful at least knowing I'm on belay.

So lets say you are taking out cleaning a cam, and you need your belayer to take , How do you communicate that? rope pulls how many?

It seems like there is still no uniform method that most climbers use when they can't hear one another with rope pulls -how many for what? - what would be a good uniform method every climber would use and know , thereby mimizing mistakes.

I guess the most climbers doing multi-pitch are in favor of walkie talkies? Obviously there usually little hope of hearing your partner when you are 300 ft apart.
Then of course the fact exists since there is no uniform non-verbal protocol , everyone will be non verbal communicating differently. Which makes it more confusing.
Isn't there some Rockclimbing Standards for non-verbal communication while climbing by AMGA?
Does anyone know which method is safest with non verbal communication with the most success?

I guess the most climbers doing multi-pitch are in favor of walkie talkies?

Obviously there usually little hope of hearing your partner when you are 300 ft apart.

Then of course the fact exists since there is no uniform non-verbal protocol , everyone will be non verbal communicating differently. Which makes it more confusing.
Isn't there some Rockclimbing Standards for non-verbal communication while climbing by AMGA?
Does anyone know which method is safest with non verbal communication with the most success?

I have certainly encountered rope drag with this, but the tugs are so obvious that even with rope drag it is still obvious. Essentially, each tug goes from the ankle to the shoulder: one... ... two... ... three times.

I think RGold's system is very similar to mine (obvious, attention-getting pulls of the rope). The point is to find a system that works for both climbers. When climbing with a new partner, I always make clear what we're going to do before hand so that there is no ambiguity. I think there are flaws with all rope pull type methods (confusing easy terrain for fast pulls, confusing a difficult clip with three easy pulls, etc), so knowing what you're doing in advance is most important.

I guess the most climbers doing multi-pitch are in favor of walkie talkies?

Nope, sorry, there is no single best method. You're gonna have to decide for YOURSELF what works be for YOU. I know it's scary but you are on your own here.

With respect to communicating when "300 feet apart," I think the climbing world has gone a bit nutty on long leads. Their potential to speed things up is mitigated by the need to carry much more gear to protect them and, of relevance to the current discussion, the time lost because of communication difficulties that could have been avoided with shorter pitches.

I think purposely blasting past good stances that are either already equipped with anchors or which can be quickly rigged doesn't save that much time unless the party is slow at setting up and changing over at belays---but that's a competence issue better resolved by becoming more efficient.

The major upside to combining pitches for me is that 160-200 feet of climbing is just damned enjoyable. Especially when you're comfortable at the grade and gear isn't a major issue. It's nice to just go.

That said, most of the places I climb are 4 pitches and under so I've never really thought about it from an efficiency stand point. I doubt it's all that much faster than an experienced party of 2. Depends on the terrain being covered too, I guess.

what kind of rope are you using for those 300 ft pitches ... 100m, 120m?

id hate to be the poor sod that gets stuck carrying that on the approach ... not to mention the extra pro, unless youre going to run it out

So lets say you are taking out cleaning a cam, and you need your belayer to take , How do you communicate that? rope pulls how many ?

Based on being around others on popular multi-pitch routes, I'd say most do not prefer walkie talkies.

I have a set but am less enthusiastic about them than I once was. There's some overhead with them: Are the batteries charged? If they are lanyarded around the neck so they can be tucked inside a shirt and out of the way, will the lanyard break before strangling? Was that some other party on the airwaves or did my partner just try to tell me something in the middle of my lead? Why does it keep chirping? What's the plan anyway if one radio craps out or gets dropped? Etc..


Well said. It comes down to self-accountability. No one system is fool proof. "Climbing is dangerous" and all that. Respectfully, everyone has a brain so use it.

I'd say the main way to keep out of trouble is simply to have an agreed upon plan with each partner of what you're gonna do if verbals aren't practical. I'm not the first to say this here. And don't assume your partner is going to like your plan. If you don't work it out in advance, you'll both probably still survive but you could lose a partner in the process.

Bill L

That's some creepy stalker behavior vegasclimber, do everyone a favor and get lost if you have nothing to contribute.

Good thread and good responses. Personally I always assume that my verbal and tug signals might go astray. So what I try to do is be cognizant of the implicit signals I'm sending by my actions. At a slab finish I don't move so fast that my belayer thinks I'm pulling up rope (unless I don't care if they take me off). When I'm setting an anchor I don't pull the slack up until I'm ready to go on belay immediately. When I'm following I watch the rope behavior to see if I'm on. It's generally pretty easy to tell as the rope just keeps getting tighter.


Just climb up a few feet over the piece. Your belayer will take up the slack and you can hang, stretching the rope back to the right position.

I agree with Bill that radios come with their own set of problems, so that the party had better be able to communicate without them, which brings the discussion right back to where it was before.

Personally, I've managed for 53 years without radios in all kinds of conditions, storms, waterfalls, roaring creeks, you name it. They seem to me to be another of the endless series of conveniences adopted by people who seem hell-bent on isolating themselves from the natural environment they purportedly came out to experience. That said, I have thought about, if not actually used, radios for certain situations in which it might be best if climbers did not telegraph their presence.

With respect to communicating when "300 feet apart," I think the climbing world has gone a bit nutty on long leads. Their potential to speed things up is mitigated by the need to carry much more gear to protect them and, of relevance to the current discussion, the time lost because of communication difficulties that could have been avoided with shorter pitches.

I think purposely blasting past good stances that are either already equipped with anchors or which can be quickly rigged doesn't save that much time unless the party is slow at setting up and changing over at belays---but that's a competence issue better resolved by becoming more efficient.

The downside is deteriorating communication, which can slow things far more than any of the savings from running pitches together, big and possibly even dangerous rope-stretch problems for the second, and much bigger chance for epics when the leader runs out of rope without reaching the next stance and/or runs out of gear with more hard climbing to go.

Full disclosure: these words are written by someone who started with 120 foot ropes and did a good deal of their hardest climbing on 150 foot ropes.

I like it, I like it alot.

And people say you can't learn anything useful on RC.com...

Ditto! Elegant, clear, and quick - thanks for sharing!

And a question to add. Using this protocol, what changes would you think to use in the unlikely circumstance that you just don't have that much slack to work with? ie climbing near the end of your rope. Just thinking of some long pitches I've belayed and got 'the signal' when my leader had about 4 feet of rope before I was simulclimbing.

Again, cheers! I LIKE it!!!

ls

Or the more likely scenario, as I mention above, where the slack simply won't make it back to the belayer due to a traverse in mid-pitch, or even rope drag?

I think in this case, the belayer is still going to be using the rope to "feel" for the climber and will discover the slack pretty shortly after it is given. You're just reading the rope movement like you do throughout every belay.

I think in this case, the belayer is still going to be using the rope to "feel" for the climber and will discover the slack pretty shortly after it is given. You're just reading the rope movement like you do throughout every belay.

We usually had two 80mm ropes and sometimes in Squamish we would take an extra rope for an emergency situations. I had this amazing partner from Canada that was climbing since 5 and was taught well by his dad, He was leading rock-on and the first piece of gear he put in was 100 ft up appr. He climbed the routes going up to the split pillar and the sword many times.
I just think Squamish is unique in the fact they have so many multi-pitches routes in one area. So you get alot of climbing in which is very enjoyable.
Never used walkie talkies , either.