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rtwilli4
Mar 7, 2011, 12:34 PM
Post #26 of 37
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milesenoell wrote: If you said you flashed it on TR, I think people would get the idea.
That's called a TRash.
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Kartessa
Mar 7, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #28 of 37
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camhead wrote: Kstenson wrote: I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. It is more strenuous to toprope sport climb roofs than to lead them.
Especially if your belaer is trying to "help" you
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csproul
Mar 7, 2011, 2:47 PM
Post #29 of 37
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Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
Your perception that TRing is always easier than leading is just flat wrong. It depends on the climb, and this is an attitude generally brought on by inefficient lead climbing or fear. This is not a dig at you. I often feel the same way as you, until I actually try climbing a route both ways or really critically think about a particular climb.
(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 7, 2011, 4:09 PM)
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jt512
Mar 7, 2011, 4:05 PM
Post #30 of 37
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Kstenson wrote: I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point.
Your fundamental point is fundamentally wrong. Some routes are harder to TR than to lead (and more dangerous as well).
In reply to: And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder?
First of all, you've changed your argument. This is what you originally said, and all that you originally said: "Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests."
It is false that lead climbing is "far more strenuous and tiring" than top roping. If you're finding it far more strenuous and tiring, then you're doing something wrong, and you should investigate what that is. Your own words suggest that you're not clipping efficiently, and if you're new to lead climbing and finding it far more strenuous and tiring, then you're probably over gripping or moving inefficiently due to the added stress of leading, as well.
Interestingly, you started out by arguing against a point that was never made. Phang_nga never said that lead climbing a route isn't at least a little harder than TRing it; he only said that "a top rope doesn't physically help you up the route," and therefore that a clean top rope ascent is still a worthy ascent.
In reply to: I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
That is usually, but not always, the case. Because you have to clip the draws, you have to hang on longer at the bolts. If the clipping positions are strenuous, then leading will be more difficult. But often the clipping positions aren't strenuous, and so the added difficulty will be minor, especially if the draws are already up (as they often will be, especially on harder climbs)—most experienced sport climbers don't think there's much glory in hanging draws. And, as others have mentioned, if you have to unclip directionals, then top roping a route can be more strenuous than leading it.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 7, 2011, 4:35 PM)
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dynosore
Mar 7, 2011, 4:32 PM
Post #31 of 37
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Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
As others have correctly pointed out, it only seems like a big difference to you because you're new to leading and inefficient. Rarely will having to clip a draw make the difference between sending and not once it's second nature to you.
Stop capitalizing Lead too. We all get it, you're a new sport climber and think you're all bad now. But you're not. When you Lead a trad 12 come back and spray, until then you're just leading with a little l.
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ENARE
Mar 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
Post #32 of 37
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Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
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Kartessa
Mar 10, 2011, 5:22 AM
Post #33 of 37
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
Instead of a cheating assist, you get rope drag!
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curt
Mar 10, 2011, 6:04 AM
Post #34 of 37
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level...
And sometimes leading has a fundamental advantage to following on a physical level--if the gear was tricky to place or some piece of it got stuck.
1) That was not the original point.
2) That is still irrelevant to the difficulty rating of the climb.
Curt
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csproul
Mar 10, 2011, 1:19 PM
Post #35 of 37
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 10, 2011, 2:24 PM
Post #36 of 37
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Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
That is called aid, my friend. And if this happens, you haven't even successfully top roped it.
Josh
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ENARE
Mar 10, 2011, 4:54 PM
Post #37 of 37
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blueeyedclimber wrote: ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration. That is called aid, my friend. And if this happens, you haven't even successfully top roped it. Josh
I agree. But the line between aid and top roping with slack can get blurred depending on how the climber is approaching an tronsight.
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