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Pres
Mar 14, 2011, 12:56 PM
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When you're bouldering, or climbing in general, at what point would you need to start using a belay system? Just watched a video that said it was bouldering, but the climber was at 10+ meters high.
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Kstenson
Mar 14, 2011, 1:38 PM
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Relevant questions:
How high can you safely deep water solo without risking broken bones or other injuries from falling into the water?
How much of a difference do waves make as opposed to still water?
(Sorry about the thread hijacking)
(This post was edited by Kstenson on Mar 14, 2011, 1:42 PM)
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lena_chita
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Mar 14, 2011, 1:54 PM
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Pres wrote: When you're bouldering, or climbing in general, at what point would you need to start using a belay system? Just watched a video that said it was bouldering, but the climber was at 10+ meters high.
Some people push highball bouldering into the area where it is pretty much indistinguisheable from free soloing. They are fully aware of the consequences of falling from 40ft, and feel confident that they can do it, anyway.
Doesn't mean that every mere mortal should replicate the feat. You set your own limit. That might mean that you are O.K. on highball V0, and not o.K. on highball V4. Or it might mean that your decision is dependent on the landing, number of pads, and spotters. Or it could be that you are not O.K. on highball anything.
You can get seriously hurt falling from 4 feet high, or be completely O.K. falling from 20ft. Roughly 30 ft high seems to be the mental cut-off for all but few people.
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Pres
Mar 14, 2011, 2:16 PM
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yeah, being that high and untethered is not a warm fuzzy for me. I've been doing shit ton of research and as soon as the tax money comes back I'm getting set up. I think that the most expensive thing I'll be getting is a grigri - Black Diamond has a kick ass intro set that I'm going to jump on.
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olderic
Mar 14, 2011, 2:56 PM
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Pres wrote: When you're bouldering, or climbing in general, at what point would you need to start using a belay system? Just watched a video that said it was bouldering, but the climber was at 10+ meters high.
You or me?
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Pres
Mar 14, 2011, 2:59 PM
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in general - I know that everyone has there own personal limits, but is there generally a standard most adhere to.
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redonkulus
Mar 14, 2011, 3:09 PM
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Kstenson wrote: Relevant questions: How high can you safely deep water solo without risking broken bones or other injuries from falling into the water?
It all depends on how you fall. In Thailand this winter, I was fine jumping from 45 feet, though it did kind of hurt my feet to land, and I saw some guys jump from probably 70, with no trouble because they landed in the pencil position, legs straight and together, arms to side, not looking down. On that same DWS trip, a girl jumped from probably 30 but didn't control herself well in the air, landed partially on her back, and had to be taken back to land quickly and taken to a doctor or hospital because she was having intense localized pain in her kidneys.
So, a lot of it depends on how well you enter the water, but I'd say that 70 feet is probably pushing the upper level of what you can do without messing up your legs and feet on landing. Plus, if you fell off that high up and weren't ready for it, you could really really hurt yourself, probably with significant internal injuries.
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TarHeelEMT
Mar 14, 2011, 3:28 PM
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Pres wrote: in general - I know that everyone has there own personal limits, but is there generally a standard most adhere to.
No, the standard is just "don't be a dumbass." The problem is that there's nothing the dumbasses can do about it.
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TradEddie
Mar 14, 2011, 3:55 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Roughly 30 ft high seems to be the mental cut-off for all but few people.
Speak for yourself, thanks. 30ft, no way.
TE
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lena_chita
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Mar 14, 2011, 4:14 PM
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TradEddie wrote: lena_chita wrote: Roughly 30 ft high seems to be the mental cut-off for all but few people. Speak for yourself, thanks. 30ft, no way. TE
Sorry, I meant that >95% of people will pick a number somewhere under 30 feet as their cut-off, not that 30 ft high is the choice cut-off for most people.
The highest I've done personally was ~25 feet.
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Jooler
Mar 14, 2011, 4:43 PM
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The highest problem I've done was roughly a 26' V2 highball. The V2 section was a traverse at the bottom linked to a V0(ish) juggy arete climb up to about a 26' top out. V0 is well below my grade but I'll be the first to admit it felt like I was climbing a V8 just due to the mental aspect. I don't think I'd go much higher than that.
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rtwilli4
Mar 15, 2011, 2:59 PM
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If the landing is flat and I have a good spotter or two w/ some pads I'm happy going 20 feet or so but I don't look happy doing it. 20 feet might not sound like a lot but it's pretty scary.
I have a lot more experience at DWS that I do bouldering so I'll push it a bit. If there is water underneath I'll do stuff at my limit up to about 40 feet, depending on a lot of things. Wall angle, waves or no waves, how deep the water is, etc. I've jumped from as high as 60 feet but would never want to have an uncontrolled fall from higher than about 30. I did once, it was not good.
If I'm leading a climb I will climb as high as 20 or 25 feet before placing gear if it's easy, usually 10 or 15 if it's not.
If I'm at the gym I'll climb as high as you're allowed w/o a rope... as long as there is padding and no birthday party kids running around.
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milesenoell
Mar 15, 2011, 3:11 PM
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I read a piece about Sharma climbing DWS (in Malta I think) and taking an awkward fall from 60-70 feet up and almost getting knocked out when he hit the water.
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cracklover
Mar 15, 2011, 6:09 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: Pres wrote: in general - I know that everyone has there own personal limits, but is there generally a standard most adhere to. No, the standard is just "don't be a dumbass." The problem is that there's nothing the dumbasses can do about it.
That ^^^
There are no clear and distinct lines between bouldering, high-ball bouldering, and soloing.
Climbing is about more than executing moves on stone. It's about understanding your capabilities both mental and physical, and pushing yourself to excel while keeping yourself safe within those limits.
I've known people who are safer climbers with no rope 200 feet off the ground than those who mostly boulder over pads in the gym. And vice versa!
GO
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olderic
Mar 15, 2011, 6:21 PM
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cracklover wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: Pres wrote: in general - I know that everyone has there own personal limits, but is there generally a standard most adhere to. No, the standard is just "don't be a dumbass." The problem is that there's nothing the dumbasses can do about it. That ^^^ There are no clear and distinct lines between bouldering, high-ball bouldering, and soloing. Climbing is about more than executing moves on stone. It's about understanding your capabilities both mental and physical, and pushing yourself to excel while keeping yourself safe within those limits. I've known people who are safer climbers with no rope 200 feet off the ground than those who mostly boulder over pads in the gym. And vice versa! GO
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sp115
Mar 15, 2011, 7:43 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: ...I've jumped from as high as 60 feet but would never want to have an uncontrolled fall from higher than about 30. I did once, it was not good.
It really boils down to exactly that - controlled vs. uncontrolled. When I was a kid I jumped off a bridge that was 76-feet from the water (we dropped a fishing line down then hauled it back in and measured it). In fact most of my friends and I did it many times each summer and never once did anyone get hurt. We went in feet first, arms by our side.
But I’ve also jumped off a dock that was a foot above the water doing a flip and landed with my head sideways and nearly ruptured my ear drum.
Land right and there’s no issue from way higher than you would imagine; land wrong, and you can get seriously fucked up from almost no distance.
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Pres
Mar 16, 2011, 12:30 PM
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I'm really looking forward to learning / climbing more and more. As of now, I'll resign myself to the gym, and venture out to some routes on the Appalachian trails when it warms up and I've had time to meet more people in the climbing community. I don't like falling at all, and I'd rather rest a moment then force something.
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JAB
Mar 16, 2011, 2:05 PM
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Pres wrote: When you're bouldering, or climbing in general, at what point would you need to start using a belay system? Just watched a video that said it was bouldering, but the climber was at 10+ meters high.
Probably worth mentioning, is that these super-highballs usually have been practised on toprope before committing to the unroped ascent (especially if there are hard moves higher up).
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ceebo
Mar 17, 2011, 12:18 PM
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Have any of you seen base solo?. That to me looks like the ultimate of climbing.. i would love to get into that. One day hopefully.
I have done quite alot free solo endurance training but well within my limits at a safe hieght. Its not to be some kind of dare devil, but it is so apealing not having the hastle to use ropes and clip etc (yes i know theirs bouldering). The thought of climbing four hours with just yourself, a mp3 full of fav songs and a parachute.. would be heaven
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Pres
Mar 17, 2011, 12:39 PM
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An uncontrolled fall with a chute - wow, what happens if you don't get far enough from the wall to open, and how would you even begin at a height safe enough for that? Wouldn't the chute be a pain to climb with, those things are not lite.
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gmggg
Mar 17, 2011, 1:11 PM
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ceebo wrote: I have done quite alot free solo endurance training but well within my limits at a safe hieght.
I'd appreciate hearing what your methods are for this.
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camhead
Mar 17, 2011, 2:15 PM
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There is always tons of debate about what the difference between a highball and a solo is, what constitutes a route or a problem, or what the difference between a R or X severity grade is.
I think that Bachar had it the best, when he simply divided all sorts of unroped climbing into three "zones." Zone 1: you fall and you're fine, Zone 2: you fall and you get hurt, Zone 3: you fall and you die. Pads, landings, and skill in falling all are variables in this that make it useless to try to equate the three zones with any sort of specific height, obviously. You can even apply the three zones to roped climbing, as they're similar to sport/G-rated, R, and X-rated routes.
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JAB
Mar 17, 2011, 2:27 PM
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Pres wrote: Wouldn't the chute be a pain to climb with, those things are not lite.
There are some videos where Dean Potter is free baseing (sp?), and the chute pack looks quite small. But as you say, there is still a lot of risk involved.
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Kstenson
Mar 17, 2011, 2:40 PM
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True, but statistically the risk is most likely lower than high ball bouldering.
I always find it interesting how at my climbing gym new climbers are never scared to top out the 7 meter high balls but are terrified to climb 12 meters on top rope, the irrationality of the human mind.
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ceebo
Mar 17, 2011, 2:46 PM
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Ill assume you were genuinely interested their.
I put my harness on, tie in a 1m length rope and then up/down climb for 45 min, 3 sets. The 1M length is to clip on the way up and down just like in a lead (minus the down part). Mock me all you want  No rope drag, but it forces the body posistions unique in leading, extra hand load and clip training.
Traversing is just not the same. I cant get away with using that as a means to train endurance anymore. I would love to have a partner who can find the time to climb as much as i can so that i don't need to do such things.. but i would also love to win the lottery as well.
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