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moose_droppings
Apr 5, 2011, 6:34 AM
Post #26 of 31
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rgold wrote: Is this the place to share an optimal knot-passing strategy? Start off by pulling up the rappel ropes and installing the atc just below the knot. Clip the atc to the harness belay loop and tie it off as for self-rescue. Set up a rappel using a Munter hitch on a locker extended to head level from the harness. Rappel on this. As the knot approaches the munter biner, the atc will be weighted and the rappeller will be hanging on the tied-off atc. Unclip the extender sling (minor struggle possible here) and pop the loaded munter carabiner off the rope. Release the tied-off atc and continue down. Fast to set up, secure and pretty goof-proof, no prussik knots or foot slings involved.
Sure like the sounds of this. A question though.
As I rap down on the Munter to the point where the ATC comes tight, will there be a bunch of twists in the line with a possible rats nest between the two since the ATC is attached to my belay loop?
Thanks.
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tomthedancinghobo
Apr 5, 2011, 6:38 AM
Post #27 of 31
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Right. I said that in most cases you don't actually need to hold the strands parallel - Freedom of the hills says that in any configuration this hitch generates more friction than most belay devices.
All I was saying was that, by placing at head level a variable friction hitch controlled by orientation of the strands, you do give up some control. This obviously isn't a big deal in normal situations. But in situations requiring greater-than-normal friction, like rappelling on icy ropes, with an injured person, or on small-diameter ropes, I'm not sure I'd trust a munter hitch at head level.
Once again: it would obviously work, but it seems to add an extra level of complication - a second belay device - without any corresponding payoff.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 5, 2011, 12:37 PM
Post #28 of 31
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Alpine07 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: rgold wrote: Josh, check the date of that "outrageous" post... Doh! I've been trolled  (edited to add: In my defense, I thought you weren't allowed to troll in this forum). Btw, I like your solution to pass the knot. Like others, I have never had to in the field and up until now was assuming I'd use prussiks if the situation came up. Josh Haha, sorry bout that, it was april fools, ya know?! I had thought I'd made it ridiculous enough so no one would think I was serious. Ah well...
What can I say? I'm gullible
Plus, I commute on the subway in Boston everyday. There are a lot of stupid people out there. It only makes sense that some of them might go climbing 
Josh
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rgold
Apr 7, 2011, 4:23 AM
Post #29 of 31
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j ung wrote: Will you describe the munter pop a bit further? Is it simply a matter of maneuvering the HMS biner so as to remove it from the load line above?
Yes. Open the gate of the munter biner and pivot the biner with gate open so the loaded rope below the biner passes through the gate. There's a little "pop" as the loaded rope twists the biner around, leaving it as if you had just clipped it into the loaded line. Doing this is way easier than describing it.
j ung wrote: any thoughts on whether a keylock biner might work better than a notched biner?
I think a keylock biner might be slightly easier to unclip, but I don't think the difference is substantial. If the biner is very small, the munter could get in the way of opening the gate, and there could be a bit of wrestling at that point.
tomthedancinghobo wrote: Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but... Why would you rig a Munter at head level? The strands of that hitch (loaded and brake strands) need to be held parallel, so you'd need to hold your brake arm over your head, wouldn't you?
No, the strands don't need to be held up above the munter biner and it is actually rather a pain to rappel that way when the biner is on the harness belay loop.
But the point about extending the munter to head level is so that you end up fully resting on the tied-off atc before the knot reaches the munter.
tomthedancinghobo wrote: I know the munter has enough friction that you generally don't need to *actually* line the strands up - even a strong grip will often do - but it seems like some serious built-in awkwardness compared to the relatively simple prusik-detach-reattach-unprussik knot-passing.
tomthedancinghobo wrote: Once again: it would obviously work, but it seems to add an extra level of complication - a second belay device - without any corresponding payoff.
Your responses make me wonder whether you've actually done the prussik method, which involves several extra complicating factors too. Try both methods on a free-hanging rappel and report back...
Meanwhile, if you go back and read my reply to Magid, you'll see that the prussik method is, at least in my opinion, both more awkward and more complicated, as well as having some potential "gotcha's" that could provoke epics.
moose droppings wrote: As I rap down on the Munter to the point where the ATC comes tight, will there be a bunch of twists in the line with a possible rats nest between the two since the ATC is attached to my belay loop?
Not necessarily, but it depends on the rope, so a big twist-up could potentially occur. It is easily undone by unclipping the atc from the harness belay loop and letting the rope untwist. Doing this leaves you no more vulnerable than you would be during any ordinary rappel. You need to get the atc clipped back on before it has actually moved too high above the harness loop, but that would certainly be waiting until the last minute...
Edit: If insufficient rope friction from the head-level munter is an issue, you can use a double munter. It takes two "pops" to get this off a loaded line, and you do need a nice large munter biner to accommodate all the turns of rope.
(This post was edited by rgold on Apr 7, 2011, 5:59 AM)
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tomthedancinghobo
Apr 7, 2011, 5:03 AM
Post #30 of 31
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Comprehensive reply!
Sorry to be a troll. Above/looking back, that reply did sound a little pissy.
That said, I don't see the prusik as being that much more complicated. Let it catch just before your device hits the knot, remove and replace the device below the knot, pull up (w/leg wrap if nec.) to unweight the rpusik, loosen it, take the weight on your device, guide the hitch over the knot, and away you go...
I've never pased a knot that way, but I've definitely weighted and unweighted my belay device when freeing stuck ropes, etc, using a prusik above it.
Am I missing something?
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moose_droppings
Apr 8, 2011, 10:10 PM
Post #31 of 31
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Thanks Rich, sounds like an easy enough fix.
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