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sp115
Apr 20, 2011, 9:49 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling. Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951... http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure .
Given that that may be true, are you suggesting that rappelling accidents alone are misrepresented?
Edit to add: http://hidesertstar.com/...1c9b1e9710550270.txt
(This post was edited by sp115 on Apr 20, 2011, 9:59 PM)
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majid_sabet
Apr 20, 2011, 11:08 PM
Post #27 of 77
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sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling. Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951... http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure . Given that that may be true, are you suggesting that rappelling accidents alone are misrepresented? Edit to add: http://hidesertstar.com/...1c9b1e9710550270.txt
Rappelling may appear to be simple and easy to do and honestly , it is however, many climbers misjudge how easily they could get killed if they do not follow their own safety rules and almost 90% do not go by their own check list .
The lack of knowledge or experience plays no part on why so many climbers die while rapping rather, the autopilot mentality probably is the leading cause.
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extreme_actuary
Apr 20, 2011, 11:48 PM
Post #28 of 77
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enigma wrote: ...However, when I asked what he was able to lead, he was unsure, when I asked when he lasted lead he didn't know. When I asked where he usually climbing he didn't answer. When I asked about what gear he had, he didn't have any with him either, trad or sport or a rope. Unless maybe he did use someone else's. ...I didn't feel confident that he had skills for outside climbing based on my conversation with him. I opted out. ...I just felt unsure of any of his skills, belaying, and how long it was since he climbed. I told him there were some top ropes at jtree.
In your post, it seems you are implying that lack of experience or skill were the cause of the accident.
I don't pretend to know what happened, but the pictures on the SuperTaco link appears to refute your hypothesis.
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socalclimber
Apr 21, 2011, 3:34 AM
Post #30 of 77
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majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling. Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951... http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure .
Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day.
This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park.
As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season.
I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 21, 2011, 3:36 AM)
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jakedatc
Apr 21, 2011, 4:01 AM
Post #31 of 77
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socalclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling. Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951... http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure . Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day. This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park. As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season. I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.
Exactly how does the rating of the climb going UP have ANYTHING to do with how you get DOWN? and have anything to do with this accident?
Thanks for the spray down but it would have been better had you waited for a real report.
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majid_sabet
Apr 21, 2011, 4:01 AM
Post #32 of 77
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socalclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling. Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951... http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure . Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day. This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park. As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season. I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.
very true
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mc
Apr 21, 2011, 6:56 AM
Post #33 of 77
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Crap!!!
was reading this with intrest as I have often climbed in J Tree then when I read the victems name....
Really sad to hear this. David was a friend and I climbed often with him here in Germany when he was working at the Max Plank Institute in Heidelberg.
Condolences to the Family.
Enigma please PM me.
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csproul
Apr 21, 2011, 5:23 PM
Post #35 of 77
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That report also says they were "hiking" so I'm not sure how much confidence I place in their reporting.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Apr 21, 2011, 5:35 PM
Post #36 of 77
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Sort-of random, I know, but Istumbled over this:
David Pinegar
I guess he was an RC.com member, too.
My condolences to the family and friends.
I hope to hear more details of the accident when possible.
(This post was edited by lena_chita on Apr 21, 2011, 5:35 PM)
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ClimbSoHigh
Apr 21, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #37 of 77
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I think we should all wait to read an accurate report on this before trying to derive lessons from it. When the only report indicates he was rock climbing, while hiking, on rappel, when his rope snapped shows we still have no idea what happened. For now, the only comments I would hope to see is RIP and the such, not a pissing match over the percent of rapping accidents or the change in demographics at J-Tree.
Condolences to those that knew him, sounds like he was good dude with a lot of promise. RIP...
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suprasoup
Apr 21, 2011, 6:33 PM
Post #38 of 77
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: I think we should all wait to read an accurate report on this before trying to derive lessons from it. When the only report indicates he was rock climbing, while hiking, on rappel, when his rope snapped shows we still have no idea what happened. For now, the only comments I would hope to see is RIP and the such, not a pissing match over the percent of rapping accidents or the change in demographics at J-Tree. Condolences to those that knew him, sounds like he was good dude with a lot of promise. RIP...
Agreed.
I still can't believe this happened. RIP my friend...
Supra
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lena_chita
Moderator
Apr 21, 2011, 6:54 PM
Post #39 of 77
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: I think we should all wait to read an accurate report on this before trying to derive lessons from it. When the only report indicates he was rock climbing, while hiking, on rappel, when his rope snapped shows we still have no idea what happened. For now, the only comments I would hope to see is RIP and the such, not a pissing match over the percent of rapping accidents or the change in demographics at J-Tree. Condolences to those that knew him, sounds like he was good dude with a lot of promise. RIP...
I agree with you... Were you responding to me? Did I somehow indicate that I thought otherwise?
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socalclimber
Apr 22, 2011, 1:23 AM
Post #40 of 77
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Joe Zarki is a nice man, but his reports regarding climbing accidents in this park are generally not real accurate.
Let's just wait to see what comes from the proper channels.
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robdotcalm
Apr 22, 2011, 3:00 AM
Post #41 of 77
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socalclimber wrote: Joe Zarki is a nice man, but his reports regarding climbing accidents in this park are generally not real accurate. Let's just wait to see what comes from the proper channels.
What are the "proper channels" in this case?
Rob.calm
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socalclimber
Apr 22, 2011, 3:31 AM
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Ultimately the proper channels are law enforcement. All SAR incidents are considered crime scenes until proven otherwise. So there investigation is pretty much the top of the pile. Since SAR is completely entrenched with Law Enforcement, once the LE's have made their final report, the SAR managers will know what happened as much as that is possible.
I will know as soon as the SAR managers know since the main guy is one of my best friends and I have a good relationship with the park service well.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 22, 2011, 3:32 AM)
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puckeatr31
Apr 22, 2011, 4:29 PM
Post #43 of 77
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I think what Robert is trying to say is that if you are not used to climbing in Josh, you need to be ready and start below what you normally climb. I have been extremely humbled everytime I have climbed there. If you are a 5.10+ gym or sport climber don't expect to climb those ratings at Josh, especailly if you don't have any experience with cracks. I have found that getting off a route in Josh is much scarier than the climb. I do not think he was saying or inferred this was a cause of this particular accident. I think he is just trying to let people know that Joshua Tree is not a place to be taken lightly. Flamming him was not appropriate, especially when this thread is about a fatal accident.
To David's friends and family. I am sorry for your loss. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. I hope your life is filled with wonderful memories!
Eric
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csproul
Apr 22, 2011, 6:27 PM
Post #44 of 77
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puckeatr31 wrote: I think what Robert is trying to say is that if you are not used to climbing in Josh, you need to be ready and start below what you normally climb. I have been extremely humbled everytime I have climbed there. If you are a 5.10+ gym or sport climber don't expect to climb those ratings at Josh, especailly if you don't have any experience with cracks. I have found that getting off a route in Josh is much scarier than the climb. I do not think he was saying or inferred this was a cause of this particular accident. I think he is just trying to let people know that Joshua Tree is not a place to be taken lightly. Flamming him was not appropriate, especially when this thread is about a fatal accident. To David's friends and family. I am sorry for your loss. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. I hope your life is filled with wonderful memories! Eric
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ClimbSoHigh
Apr 22, 2011, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: I agree with you... Were you responding to me? Did I somehow indicate that I thought otherwise?
Sorry, I just usually read all the new posts and then click reply on the last post. Your post was appropriate and tactful, like usual.
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socalclimber
Apr 24, 2011, 3:26 AM
Post #47 of 77
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There are still finishing up the investigation. I hope to hear something in a day or two. Investigations can take time depending on the nature of the incident.
I promise to let you know when I do.
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 24, 2011, 5:35 AM
Post #48 of 77
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csproul wrote: puckeatr31 wrote: I think what Robert is trying to say is that if you are not used to climbing in Josh, you need to be ready and start below what you normally climb. I have been extremely humbled everytime I have climbed there. If you are a 5.10+ gym or sport climber don't expect to climb those ratings at Josh, especailly if you don't have any experience with cracks. I have found that getting off a route in Josh is much scarier than the climb. I do not think he was saying or inferred this was a cause of this particular accident. I think he is just trying to let people know that Joshua Tree is not a place to be taken lightly. Flamming him was not appropriate, especially when this thread is about a fatal accident. To David's friends and family. I am sorry for your loss. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. I hope your life is filled with wonderful memories! Eric And all that has been said a million times and could be said a million times more about virtually every trad crag in the US. How is that relevant to what has been described as a rappelling accident? It really just came off as another chest thumping exercise.
Don't confuse roberts warnings as "chest thumping." I think many are attempting to interpret what he is saying through what they perceive as a personality like their own. Robert is a very, very good person, extremely humble and not out to spray (too old/ugly to spray at least).
Having spent just a small amount of time in Joshua Tree I echo his sentiment - it is a very traditional area with many adventurous, fun routes. Yes, many accidents reported are from rapelling errors, but I have witnessed dozens of small accidents, broken bones, and nearly fatal accidents (including my own!) from people who are new leaders or are not familiar with the flaring, difficult-to-protect or runout routes here. This is not to say that this particular incident was because of said issue, but it is one to consider if you are reading RC.com and would like to head out to JT.
If you treat the climbing with proper respect it can afford you a lifetime of fun, but make sure to grant it that much.
I am sorry for the loss of David, and from what I saw from the pictures on Supertopo he was a well respected, experienced climber who was extremely fired up about having positive experiences in our hills. As a member of the tribe, he will be missed, but not forgotton.
Greg Davis
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socalclimber
Apr 24, 2011, 12:56 PM
Post #49 of 77
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: csproul wrote: puckeatr31 wrote: I think what Robert is trying to say is that if you are not used to climbing in Josh, you need to be ready and start below what you normally climb. I have been extremely humbled everytime I have climbed there. If you are a 5.10+ gym or sport climber don't expect to climb those ratings at Josh, especailly if you don't have any experience with cracks. I have found that getting off a route in Josh is much scarier than the climb. I do not think he was saying or inferred this was a cause of this particular accident. I think he is just trying to let people know that Joshua Tree is not a place to be taken lightly. Flamming him was not appropriate, especially when this thread is about a fatal accident. To David's friends and family. I am sorry for your loss. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. I hope your life is filled with wonderful memories! Eric And all that has been said a million times and could be said a million times more about virtually every trad crag in the US. How is that relevant to what has been described as a rappelling accident? It really just came off as another chest thumping exercise. Don't confuse roberts warnings as "chest thumping." I think many are attempting to interpret what he is saying through what they perceive as a personality like their own. Robert is a very, very good person, extremely humble and not out to spray (too old/ugly to spray at least). Having spent just a small amount of time in Joshua Tree I echo his sentiment - it is a very traditional area with many adventurous, fun routes. Yes, many accidents reported are from rapelling errors, but I have witnessed dozens of small accidents, broken bones, and nearly fatal accidents (including my own!) from people who are new leaders or are not familiar with the flaring, difficult-to-protect or runout routes here. This is not to say that this particular incident was because of said issue, but it is one to consider if you are reading RC.com and would like to head out to JT. If you treat the climbing with proper respect it can afford you a lifetime of fun, but make sure to grant it that much. I am sorry for the loss of David, and from what I saw from the pictures on Supertopo he was a well respected, experienced climber who was extremely fired up about having positive experiences in our hills. As a member of the tribe, he will be missed, but not forgotton. Greg Davis
Thank you Eric and Greg for echoing my sentiment in a far more gracious and eloquent manner than I managed to accomplish.
Robert
In reply to: (too old/ugly to spray at least)
Oh and Greg, that's Mr. Fonda to you junior...
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 24, 2011, 12:59 PM)
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rtwilli4
Apr 24, 2011, 1:30 PM
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I'm very sad for the friends, family, acquaintances of this guy. I personally am pretty shocked and disappointed that so many people (not everyone) have come on here spouting so much ego and self-righteous bullshit. Someone has died.
I'm thankful that the people I've known that have died climbing haven't been disrespected by the kind of crap that is going on here, and I hope to God that the next person I know who dies doesn't end up a side note in some stupid internet pissing contest.
RIP to the fallen climber and condolences to his friends and family.
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