|
|
|
|
drector
May 26, 2011, 5:41 PM
Post #26 of 182
(12664 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 1037
|
onrockandice wrote: *NEVER* assume your belayer has the situation under control and blindly trust the system.
How do you climb, rope solo or free solo?
I think that if you trust the belayer to catch you when you fall, it should be easy to trust the belayer to hold you when you lower off. Weighting the rope to lower and weighting it during a leader fall are the same in that the belayer MUST hold you no matter what.
I *always* assume that my belayer has the situation under control. If I didn't assume that, I would not let them belay be.
onrockandice wrote: Do everything in your power to make sure that when you let go to come down you know that the rope is taught with your weight.
Like by leaning back on the rope? Or do you mean that you grab the other side of the rope and pull up on it to see if the belayer is holding it? How would you do that during a lead fall?
The solution is to find a trustworthy belayer, not avoid that trust in selective situations like when being lowered. I would not cross a bridge I didn't trust to hold my weight or fly in a plane that I though was not airworthy. I would not take a ride in a boat that I thought would sink. Rock climbing is dangerous enough as it is and climbing with a belayer I did not trust seems downright stupid.
There is only one belayer in the system. Don't settle for someone sub-par.
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 26, 2011, 5:45 PM
Post #27 of 182
(12661 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
I agree completely with onrockandice. Rappelling keeps you in control.
shockabuku wrote: I won't climb with you. If I can't trust you to lower me, I can't trust you to catch me either. It's called a partnership for a reason.
redlude97 wrote: I'm willing to bet you don't climb very many overhanging routes.
(BTW if I'm climbing overhanging sport normally my partner then climbs, cleans and raps.)
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
May 26, 2011, 5:54 PM
Post #28 of 182
(12654 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
patto wrote: (BTW if I'm climbing overhanging sport normally my partner then climbs, cleans and raps.)
|
|
|
|
|
superchuffer
May 26, 2011, 5:55 PM
Post #29 of 182
(12651 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2011
Posts: 294
|
I like how the fellow chuffers like to weigh in with their *obvious* safety points. Phil Powers had more time in the mountains than all of you put together. Give the man some respect and send your best wishes.
(This post was edited by superchuffer on May 26, 2011, 5:56 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
madrasrock
May 26, 2011, 7:47 PM
Post #30 of 182
(12613 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2005
Posts: 79
|
Both of the last two accidents were not from the belayer’s ability or lack of. But the lack of clear communication before leaving the ground or because of distance they could not hear. It does not matter if you have a good or bad belayer if you have any question, you should just lower yourself down. If the bealyer still have a holding on to the rope, that is just extra.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 26, 2011, 7:51 PM
Post #31 of 182
(12610 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
madrasrock wrote: Both of the last two accidents were not from the belayer’s ability or lack of. But the lack of clear communication before leaving the ground or because of distance they could not hear.
Or lack of standardization. If everyone just lowered off sport climbs, and stopped all this hand-wringing about whether to rap or lower, these accidents would never occur.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
May 26, 2011, 7:52 PM
Post #32 of 182
(12609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
partly agree ...
but unless the belayer hear a loud and clear "take me off belay <insert name>"
the climber should never be off belay ...
it IS always possible that one could mis hear some other statement ... but the belayer should shout "you are off belay <insert name>" every time afterwards
i believe that when you cant see or hear your belayer clearly rapping or walking off is the sensible option ... but with clear line of sight or hearing ... lowering is just fine IMO ...
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
May 26, 2011, 8:00 PM
Post #33 of 182
(12599 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
patto wrote: I agree completely with onrockandice. Rappelling keeps you in control. shockabuku wrote: I won't climb with you. If I can't trust you to lower me, I can't trust you to catch me either. It's called a partnership for a reason. Its not about lack of trust its about keeping control in the hands of the best person to make the decisions. redlude97 wrote: I'm willing to bet you don't climb very many overhanging routes. I can play that game. I could stereotype by saying I am willing to be you don't climb much adventurous trad. (BTW if I'm climbing overhanging sport normally my partner then climbs, cleans and raps.)
you don't climb with anyone that can't or doesn't want to do the route you are doing? i find that hard to imagine.
it isn't a stereotype. it's a simple fact that cleaning overhanging routes is done by lowering off.. no question about it.
but thank you for playing your "i'm so fucking rad i'm a trad climber" card. *Plonk*
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
May 26, 2011, 9:13 PM
Post #34 of 182
(12564 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
shockabuku wrote: onrockandice wrote: I see a lot of replies implying it was the fault of the belayer. Rubbish. I climb because I enjoy it. I live because I'm pedantic to the excessive. I read sh!t here all the time about lowering accidents. I refuse to be lowered. My safety is my problem. Nobody is going to have a chance to drop me. I'd never put that burden on someone. The guilt if they mess up and the fact that people mess this up all the time are/were enough for me to change my tactics completely. If you cannot rap safely on your own power then you don't climb with me. When you reach the anchors your safety is your issue. I've never been "lowered" and I never will be. My habits at the anchors are set in stone. There is no mantra or "method" to it. It's simple. It's been stated and restated here 1000 times. If you get "dropped" then honestly it's your fault for: 1. Agreeing to be lowered and not being hyper aware of all the safe aspects of a safe-lower. 2. Staying on your personal anchor until the lowering rope is fully tight with your body weight and there is no load at all on your PAS(s). Only then do you unweight disconnect your PAS and lower off. Even then you grab the other side of the rope and hold on until you are sure everything is *SAFE*. 3. Verbal communication is NOT safe. Test that rope liberally before you agree to weight it with no backup at all for lowering. *NEVER* assume your belayer has the situation under control and blindly trust the system. It's your job to keep yourself alive. Do everything in your power to make sure that when you let go to come down you know that the rope is taught with your weight. *ALWAYS* skip being lowered. Rappel, rappel safely, back up your rappel, inspect your system, weight the system, repeat at least once more to be sure. Then rappel off safely to the ground. I won't climb with you. If I can't trust you to lower me, I can't trust you to catch me either. It's called a partnership for a reason. However, I do agree with you at some level - if you get dropped it's your fault for choosing that partner and how the two of you do business.
+1 wouldn't climb with that guy ever.
go see the Binary Never/Always thread.. if you think one set of "rules" fits every scenario then you are more likely to end up in one of these accidents eventually.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
May 26, 2011, 9:31 PM
Post #35 of 182
(12557 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
moose_droppings wrote: wwalt822 wrote: Yeah but very few people tie in on single pitch (i'm sure you are the shining exception). If you are concerned about rope length on single pitch, a knot in the end of the rope is best in a majority of situations. Tie a knot, tie it to a tree, tie it to a belayer, just close the system.
Yea, I think it is going to be hard to convince climbers to tie a knot everytime the leader starts up.
My approach is to tie the end to the rope bag. Most climbers doing single pitch cragging use a rope bag. Except for reversing the rope, you can just leave it tied for several different leads.
Anytime the rope goes into the rope bag, the end gets tied and it stays tied until/unless the second ties in or the rope is reversed and pulled through the anchor.
Tieing it to the rope bag also gives you a greater chance of avoiding pulling the rope into the anchor. If you forget to untie the knot, seeing the rope bag lift off the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
May 27, 2011, 5:19 AM
Post #36 of 182
(12517 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
patto wrote: I agree completely with onrockandice. Rappelling keeps you in control. shockabuku wrote: I won't climb with you. If I can't trust you to lower me, I can't trust you to catch me either. It's called a partnership for a reason. Its not about lack of trust its about keeping control in the hands of the best person to make the decisions.
I do either equally well and, more importantly, can make the decision when to use which method.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 27, 2011, 7:24 PM
Post #37 of 182
(12445 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
jt512 wrote: If everyone just lowered off sport climbs, and stopped all this hand-wringing about whether to rap or lower, these accidents would never occur.
bearbreeder wrote: i believe that when you cant see or hear your belayer clearly rapping or walking off is the sensible option ... but with clear line of sight or hearing ... lowering is just fine IMO ...
jakedatc wrote: you don't climb with anyone that can't or doesn't want to do the route you are doing? i find that hard to imagine.
jakedatc wrote: it isn't a stereotype. it's a simple fact that cleaning overhanging routes is done by lowering off.. no question about it.
jakedatc wrote: but thank you for playing your "i'm so fucking rad i'm a trad climber" card. *Plonk*
(This post was edited by patto on May 27, 2011, 7:30 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 27, 2011, 7:31 PM
Post #38 of 182
(12439 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
patto wrote: jt512 wrote: If everyone just lowered off sport climbs, and stopped all this hand-wringing about whether to rap or lower, these accidents would never occur. Rapping is better in numerous ways. Many bolted routes lowering is simply not the sensible option. Why would you limit your options simply because Jay thinks lowering is fantastic?
Thank you for that completely vacuous paragraph.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
May 27, 2011, 10:49 PM
Post #39 of 182
(12395 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
patto wrote: jt512 wrote: If everyone just lowered off sport climbs, and stopped all this hand-wringing about whether to rap or lower, these accidents would never occur. Rapping is better in numerous ways. Many bolted routes lowering is simply not the sensible option. Why would you limit your options simply because Jay thinks lowering is fantastic? bearbreeder wrote: i believe that when you cant see or hear your belayer clearly rapping or walking off is the sensible option ... but with clear line of sight or hearing ... lowering is just fine IMO ... Makes sense! jakedatc wrote: you don't climb with anyone that can't or doesn't want to do the route you are doing? i find that hard to imagine. I'm sorry you have difficulty imagining it, but its the truth. My partner and I are a team we climb together. Furthermore most routes I do are multipitch. jakedatc wrote: it isn't a stereotype. it's a simple fact that cleaning overhanging routes is done by lowering off.. no question about it. Its certainly not so simple. I have cleaned overhung routes on rap before, though as I have said normally my partner would clean on second. jakedatc wrote: but thank you for playing your "i'm so fucking rad i'm a trad climber" card. *Plonk* I never said that. If you feel that way about trad climbers then that is your problem.
What happens when you climb out of sight of your belayer.. so you assume you're soloing at that point?? If i am out of sight of my belayer i don't have to say a damn thing until i want "take" and "lower" nothing else involved in lowering off involves any communication at all.
Lol... i have some routes in mind i'd love to see you try to rap clean haha.. would be awesome to point and laugh. then send a 12 year old up to do it the right way.
i climb plenty of trad which is why i think your assumption that sport climbers don't know what they are doing is hilarious.
I once watched a trad climber get stuck to a quick clip anchor because he clipped in 2 daisy chains to the anchor, plus had both quick draws in and was going to untie and thread a quick clip anchor. He got stuck because he put too much shit through the bolts and the biners jammed up. It was quick clip anchors, he didn't even need to stop climbing, could have clipped the quick clips under the draws then taken them off and lowered down.
People who are narrow minded get themselves in stupid situations which could lead them to get hurt.
how do you know that the guy in the OP didn't ALWAYS rap down and decided for once that he'd lower... but if he sprayed all day long about always rapping then if he didn't communicate that and bad things happen.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 27, 2011, 11:06 PM
Post #40 of 182
(12391 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
Wow, talk about putting words in my mouth! 
jakedatc wrote: What happens when you climb out of sight of your belayer.. so you assume you're soloing at that point??
jakedatc wrote: Lol... i have some routes in mind i'd love to see you try to rap clean haha.. would be awesome to point and laugh. then send a 12 year old up to do it the right way.
jakedatc wrote: i climb plenty of trad which is why i think your assumption that sport climbers don't know what they are doing is hilarious.
jakedatc wrote: I once watched a trad climber get stuck to a quick clip anchor ....
jakedatc wrote: how do you know that the guy in the OP didn't ALWAYS rap down and decided for once that he'd lower... but if he sprayed all day long about always rapping then if he didn't communicate that and bad things happen.
(This post was edited by patto on May 27, 2011, 11:09 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
funnelator
May 30, 2011, 10:51 PM
Post #41 of 182
(12295 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 83
|
Mis-communicating about being lowered or rapping is not all that uncommon. In my personal experience, I know of two parties, both with good solid climbers of long experience, who have suffered this mishap. In both instances, when at the anchors, which were out of sight of the belayers, the climbers were taken off belay when they wanted to still be on. When they committed their weight to their harnesses each fell to the ground and sustained very serious but still not life threatening injuries. That they are alive at all is sheer luck. One of the injured climbers doesn't climb any more and the other does but with greatly restricted motion in one ankle.
The point is people make mistakes. No one is fully immune. Not even you and your favorite climbing partner.
One way to minimize the possibility of making this mistake when transitioning from climbing to being lowered is for the climber to keep a grip on the brake side of the rope until they can visually check to see they are still on belay before fully committing their weight to the rope. This is a common practice among guides at some crags as they are being lowered by clients who may have learned to belay five minutes before and/or who climb infrequently at best.
None of my above remarks are directed at Phil or anyone in his climbing party as I have no knowledge of his accident, nor is it my place to judge. I extend best wishes to Phil and his climbing partner(s) and also wish them a speedy recovery.
(This post was edited by funnelator on May 30, 2011, 11:10 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
funnelator
May 31, 2011, 12:05 AM
Post #42 of 182
(12277 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 83
|
As many have mentioned the belayer should keep the climber on if there is even a whisper of doubt. The way I articulate that to people I haven't climbed with before, especially new climbers, is "If you leave me on and I want to be off the worst that can happen is I will be annoyed. If you take me off and I want to be on the worst that can happen is I will be dead. I'd rather be annoyed than dead."
On occasion with a new climbing partner, after my little belay speech, they will laugh at me and say something like "Haha, yeah sure, like I'm going to take you off belay, JUST CLIMB!!". Then I do my best to annoy them by taking my time telling stories about my crippled friends.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 31, 2011, 12:52 AM
Post #43 of 182
(12263 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
funnelator wrote: As many have mentioned the belayer should keep the climber on if there is even a whisper of doubt.
But that doubt ends when the climber confirms that he is SAFE/OFFBELAY.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 31, 2011, 1:28 AM
Post #44 of 182
(12251 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
patto wrote: funnelator wrote: As many have mentioned the belayer should keep the climber on if there is even a whisper of doubt. I completely agree. But that doubt ends when the climber confirms that he is SAFE/OFFBELAY.
Wrong. Lowering/rappelling accidents involving miscommunication almost by definition occur when the climber, intending to lower, erroneously says "off belay."
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 31, 2011, 1:50 AM
Post #45 of 182
(12239 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
jt512 wrote: Wrong. Lowering/rappelling accidents involving miscommunication almost by definition occur when the climber, intending to lower, erroneously says "off belay."
Should belayer's thus always ignore a climbers call of "SAFE/OFFBELAY"? How then does a climbed then request a belay to remove himself from belay?
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 31, 2011, 2:09 AM
Post #46 of 182
(12231 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Wrong. Lowering/rappelling accidents involving miscommunication almost by definition occur when the climber, intending to lower, erroneously says "off belay." Whats 'wrong'?
What's wrong is exactly what I said was wrong, and for exactly the reason I stated. If you can't understand it, then stop giving advice to sport climbers about how they should descend from sport climbs.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 31, 2011, 2:11 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 31, 2011, 2:43 AM
Post #47 of 182
(12218 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
Jay there are many ways one can safely descend from a sport climb. I am not suggesting any one of them is the right way. I am not giving advice.
You however in your self proclaimed wisdom has said that there is one correct way.
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
May 31, 2011, 3:11 AM
Post #48 of 182
(12206 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
patto wrote: Jay there are many ways one can safely descend from a sport climb. I am not suggesting any one of them is the right way. I am not giving advice. You however in your self proclaimed wisdom has said that there is one correct way.
|
|
|
|
|
funnelator
May 31, 2011, 3:37 AM
Post #49 of 182
(12195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 83
|
jt512 wrote: patto wrote: funnelator wrote: As many have mentioned the belayer should keep the climber on if there is even a whisper of doubt. I completely agree. But that doubt ends when the climber confirms that he is SAFE/OFFBELAY. Wrong. Lowering/rappelling accidents involving miscommunication almost by definition occur when the climber, intending to lower, erroneously says "off belay." Jay
There is also the risk the belayer hearing someone else, also out of sight, say "off belay" and then confirming.
I've twice been taken off belay while on lead due to my belayer hearing a nearby climber say "off belay", then asking for a confirmation, and getting it from the other climber, before taking me off.
If other climbers are around it helps a lot for both the belayer and climber to use names.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
May 31, 2011, 4:42 AM
Post #50 of 182
(12183 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
funnelator wrote: If other climbers are around it helps a lot for both the belayer and climber to use names.
100% agree. I always, always use names and I always always ask for confirmation. I don't care if I can see the climber, I won't take somebody off belay unless I here confirmation with my name.
|
|
|
|
|
|
