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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 11:27 AM
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For several years, I used to maintain a website called What's Up SoCal. During those years, I spent many hours hiking local crags and drawing topos. Probably even more time talking to the developers or even developing the routes myself. Further time spent creating computerized topos. Many of these areas were being developed or were new and did not previously have topos available to them.
I put the topos on the net to make them freely available to whoever wanted them. Thinking (rather innocently at the time) that since they were on my site and that I had the jpg topo files imbeded into htmls file with my name on it, that actually hard coding my name into the topos wouldn't be necessary. I mean, who would knowingly take topos from someone freely giving them out, and distribute them as their own??
Years passed and I finally graduated from college (heheh FINALLY ) and I moved up North. I maintained the site for some time, but eventually just ran out of steam with a new job, new son, and new climbing areas up north. I took down the website after much deliberation, but also after receiving a few emails from people who became "irritated" about me not keeping the site updated despite them knowing that I didn't even live in the area! Anyways...
A year ago, I saw that my topos were being used on a different website. To the guys credit, he at least quoted them as coming from my website. I asked him to remove them from his site, and he did.
Now tonight, over 3 years since I pulled down my site, I stumbled across another website hosting some of my topos, not topos based on mine, but my actually topos that I created, but this time, the person has claimed credit for them as their own (this is a different person than the original).
I am at a loss as to why someone would claim credit for something I put alot of effort into creating. There isn't a mention anywhere on the site saying that the topos were my creation, just a tag at the top of the topo in text saying, "by "plagerists name".
I am not asking for sympathy but this kind of things really pisses me off. As many people on this site can attest too, I am very free with my topos. If emailed, I will do my best to send them electronic copies (except for NJC which at this time I am debating what I want to do with them). Regardless, it would be at least common curtosey (if not to mention illegal if they don't) to site the author of the topos when hosting it on their site.
I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be pissy about it and take it as a compliment, but I guess it would be a lot different if those people would have at least had contacted me first. The second person who claims the topos as their own, very much knows they are my creation as I have talked to him specifically about the area shown.
From hanger thefts, to intellectual property theft, what is the climbing community coming too? Maybe its just a reflection of modern society, but somehow I had hoped better from climbers.
Silly me
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2003-01-02 03:30 ]
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mesomorf
Jan 2, 2003, 12:44 PM
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Quote:Silly me
Yup.
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cass
Jan 2, 2003, 2:14 PM
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Quote:Silly me
Quote:Yup.
ditto
did you put © or something similar on the topos?
[ This Message was edited by: cass on 2003-01-02 06:17 ]
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lox
Jan 2, 2003, 2:56 PM
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Gee... for someone so self-assured you sure do spend quite a while being the victim.
Why not be content that the guys a dickhead and you are helping climbers find the climbs.
That should be enough, man...
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micronut
Jan 2, 2003, 3:45 PM
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" I put the topos on the net to make them freely avalible to whoever wanted them"
Well, if that was your true intention, I'd say you are succeeding. All pain is preceeded by one thought, and that is "me".
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 3:47 PM
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Actually Lox, it comes from the fact that I am actually willing to help out others/do things without asking, "Whats in it for me".
The only thing I like in return is maybe the occasional "thanks", but at the very minmum not to steal whatever it was I created; i.e. hangers off of routes or in this case topos.
I don't necessarily care the topos are still avaliable but rather this person is basically saying they created them which is complete b.s.
Don't you find it vaguely depressing that some people can be such low life scums they cannot resist the urge to take what is not theirs? Isn't there somewhere inside of you the hope that people will actually be honest and treat others with the same respect they want? *cough* That should make you think, Lox *cough*
I guess thats the difference between myself and the jerk offs out there jacking other people's stuff. I guess I just haven't bought into the hopelessness that must surely dominate these types of people's lives to think that must steal from others because they lack the mental fortitude to actually go create/earn something on their own.
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 3:52 PM
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Micronut,
That post was directed at Lox, but it answers your "me" statement as well.
Oh, which Hallmark card did you get that off of so I can get it for my friend who is in the hospital.
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micronut
Jan 2, 2003, 4:01 PM
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well Roughster, It's so funny to hear you lash out in rage when someone is actually trying to help. You ARE in pain, otherwise you wouldn't have wrote this piece in the first place. As far as my statement, you admit that you need recognition. I was sincerely trying to help, but.........You may not like me because I don't like Lucerne Limestone, but don't dismiss the wisdom with the wise. Peace out.
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 4:10 PM
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LOL Micro, when you show wisdom, I'll respect it. However, I am still waiting...
I "need" recognition? BUZZZ. I "deserve" it based upon the fact that I created that which was stolen. Its called a copyright and evidently the US Government (and pretty much everyone else on Earth) thinks it's an appropriate way of keeping track of who did what.
On top of that, I said directly in the post previously that I don't care so much that the topo is availble but rather that it is the fact that person is blatantly being false by claiming it is their work. That in itself is an illegal act.
So now people who are on the short end of "illegal" acts are just in pain because they are thinking about themselves?? Ahhh I see....
Theres plenty of analogies that can be drawn off of that, but their so obvious I'll let you figure them out.
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curt
Jan 2, 2003, 4:16 PM
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Roughster,
If all you wanted is credit for your creations--and to make them generally available to the public, why did you do this?
"A year ago, I saw that my topos were being used on a different website. To the guys credit, he at least quoted them as coming from my website. I asked him to remove them from his site, and he did."
Just curious.
Curt
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micronut
Jan 2, 2003, 4:22 PM
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to quote roughster, "me, me, me ,me ,me me ,me" oh what about "me" "I deserve it"
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 4:23 PM
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Easy, because at that time, and I still am to some extent, considering in publishing those topos that were on the website (NJC topos to be specific).
The NJC guide that I had available online for free for over a year probably entails easily over 100 hours worth of work. In addition, I received (and still do) constant requests for it in some other form than online. People "like" printed/bound guides due to their convinient nature instead of a loose conglomerate of 8.5 X 11" paper of varying print quality (depending on their printer).
I haven't decided either way, and per copyright laws it is my right to request the removal of any intellectual property of my creation on a site that is not authorized by me.
Had that person contacted me upfront, I most likely would have consented, but the fact that he decided to just put them on the web w/o asking was enough for me to decide to have him take them down.
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 4:25 PM
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Micronut:
Yes thats right, anyone who wants credit for their efforts/work is just a "me me me" person.
Please tell your boss you no longer want credit or a paycheck for your work because you don't want to be a "me me me" person like Roughster.
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2003-01-02 08:25 ]
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lox
Jan 2, 2003, 4:26 PM
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Look guy. You are correct when you say that I "hope" people would treat me with the respect and blahblahbah that I would want...
And then I wake the frig up and realize that this is the real world (well not this, but that and you know what I mean) and people DON'T always treat you with the resepct and courtesy that you think you deserve.
Sure, these people are TERRIBLE BASTARDS for stealing your "intellectual property." (A phrase which, when you say it, makes me think of that Oceanfront property in Arizona song) They should be PERSECUTED and RIDICULED on the internet.
Is that what you wanted to hear ?
Well there you go. But you knew it already.
All I am saying is that there might be some peace of mind gained by letting the issue go a little because you know that helping climbers find the right routes was the goal you started with when you sat down to sketch the topos in the first place.
That being said, you of course will interpersonally deal with this jerkwit however you must when you see him face to face.
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 4:36 PM
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Quote:Lox:
And then I wake the frig up and realize that this is the real world (well not this, but that and you know what I mean) and people DON'T always treat you with the resepct and courtesy that you think you deserve.
For some reason that struck me as very funny. But the comment does illustrate one thing. Some people don't want to go through life in a paranoid state of mind that others will exploit or take advantage of their actions.
This is one case where someone did. I felt like venting so I did. I also hoped for maybe someone who is/was/has contemplated doing this type of behavior to reconsider. It is not often that people hear comments/impacts from the other side (in this case a guidebook author/route developer).
I will not let these 2 incidents effect whether or not I continue to produce free topos, but eventually if given that if these types of situations were to continue to happen, I most likely would.
I know this issue pisses off other guidebook authors as I have seen and discussed similar situations with others that very much echo what I initially wrote in the initial message.
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sean34
Jan 2, 2003, 4:36 PM
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roughster,
its called taking the easy was out...Ive been doing some research for work and it blows me any the amount of IP infrigments on the Net. I have run acroos numerous sites that appear to be word for word, copy paste of the html. These are from companies offering services too
but thanks for posting your experience, im in the process of getting a website up and its a lot of work, id hate to get ripped off. Its all about watermarks and there is a code floating around the Net that prevents users from right clicking on your page. The pic will still be in a temp folder somewhere but it will stop some ppl
i feel for you...try contacting the company hosting these websites, Im sure that its a breach of contract
peace
Sean
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krillen
Jan 2, 2003, 4:41 PM
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You codl always follow one of these maps and get lost/hurt because of them, then sue, and ride it out for a while.
As "his" creations he is liable for anythign that happensfrom use of "his" product. That's why almost every map you see has a blurb of text in the title bock saying " this map is not intended for navigational use, blah blah blah, etc." Even having that it's usually pretty easy to get around legally.
I knwo it sucks to have your work stolen but, maybe it's a blessing in disguise.
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lox
Jan 2, 2003, 4:45 PM
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Vent on little buddy... if there is one thing I can relate to, it's venting on the internet.
You should do what I do: troll the beginner forum under one of your many assumed pseudonyms, Kalcario *wink* *wink*...
(Note to rc.com mods.php#24">adminsitration and staff: as you may or may not realize, I do not actually troll the beginner forum as part of my anger management technique and any reference to such action on my part is baseless if evidenced by this sarcasm here.)
OMg.
A disclaimer !
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Sean,
Thanks! Its good to see some people understand what I am saying. I could go the whole nine yards and 1st request the author, then web host take them down, but I think I would prefer if people thought about this type of stuff up front and just didn't do it in the 1st place
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krillen
Jan 2, 2003, 4:55 PM
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Wish all you like, but deep down, people are lazy and unscrupulous. Contact his IP and bust his nuts.
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roughster
Jan 2, 2003, 4:56 PM
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Lox,
Lol I am not Kalcario's alter ego by any stretch of the imagination. I have talked to him on this and other internet froums (rec.climbing and others) as well as in person, at the Hood in Vegas.
One could say that you, Ooze, Bman all have a hauntingly familar post style, but I won't tell you my theory on that one for I don't think you would appreciate it
You do bring up an interesting point though about venting. Go back and reread my initial post. If your vents we even in the same ballpark as mine, you would have never got in such hotwater here at the site.
In addition, as much as you hate what I am doing, your posts have really cleaned up over the last few days, and I could actually say I have enjoyed some of the on topic ones.
Be carefull LOX, you are in dire danger of becoming an actual contributing member to these forums!
*GASP* HORROR *GASP* heheh
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lox
Jan 2, 2003, 4:59 PM
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My posts have really cleaned up ?
I have just gone back through and reedited all my old posts you edited back to their original state ! I appreciate you noticing !
I am sure that you can realize that even off-topic posts like the last one I had in this thread are merely an attempt at harmless fun.
Which has been my entire position here since the beginning: I am more harmless fun than the spiteful spammerslammer that you make me out to be.
And I know you aren't Kalcario... just as close-minded !
hehe...
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tradclimber2
Jan 2, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Krillen and Sean are on the right track. Roughster, because YOU did the work, YOU SHOULD get the credit (whether it is important to you or not), because there are a LOT of people out there who WILL say 'thanks' for taking the time and effort to put a guide together (I know, mine is in the 2nd ed.). Contact the person, explain the problem and ask that he/she at least change the 'credit'. If that does not work, contact the ISP and see if they will help. For future reference, it is a very good idea to copyright all work you post on the web or in written form - there are plenty of people out there who will take your work for their own, be it good or bad. Ben
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mreardon
Jan 2, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Not sure what you're looking for here Roughster, but from the legal side of it:
The moment you create something, you own the copyright on it (I won't get into trademarks or servicemarks on this one). Whether or not you registered it is another matter. So by rights you own the topos even if you gave them away (I don't think this was in any dispute). If someone else is claiming credit for your intellectual property (no reference to AZ), then send a cease and desist letter. Simple as that. If they choose to ignore that, then you can sue them for three times the damages, plus all legal costs and a complete disgorgement of the profits they gain (both economic and ancillary).
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hallm
Jan 2, 2003, 9:18 PM
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FYI,
while what mreardon says is generally accurate, there are a few additional things you should know. First, if you did not control the dissemination of the work, it is possible for a court to find that you have dedicated your work to the public, thereby placing same in the public domain and becoming free for all to copy. Second, before you can file a copyright infringement action, you need to have your copyrights registered, and you have a three year statute of limitations. Third, it should only cost you about $250,000+ to hire a reputible attorney to prosecute your copyright infringement action through trial, and you will likely be asked to provide a $20,000 retainer. Third, attorney's fees and trebled damages are discretionary with the court, should you prevail on your suit and prevail in showing willful infringement. Fourth, ISP's generally have immunity from suits regarding infringement by someone utilizing their services.
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