Was the middle mark of the rope improperly marked as in another rap accident at the gunks?

bi-pattern rope with the change in patterns occurring (evidently) pretty far from the true middle of the rope.

Still, I simply don't understand how people rap off the end of their rope. When I rap I look down to inspect the rope path and see where I'm going. Until I can see that both ends are on the ground there is no way that I would just rap straight down.

oi...sorry for spreading misinformation, not sure where i read that.

I know this is common occurrence, but I wonder the same thing. I think of rope ends every time I rappel. In hundreds (thousands?) of rappels, I think there was never even one when I wasn't actively concerned about the rope ends at least until I saw them myself.

...when i rappel on single pitch climbs, i dont usually go so fast that i cant see the ends coming towards me

I was taking my oldest son up Three Pines (Gunks) and got to the second pitch anchors when another party traversed over and prepared to rappel. The guy doing the setting-up clearly knew what he was doing so I wasn't paying too much attention. But when he finally started down, he dropped so fast that for a second I actually thought he fell. It caught me by surprise until I realized he was fine, but just flying down the cliff.

There is one detail heard through the grapevine that hasn't come to light yet. There was reportedly a rapidly approaching storm, which created a sense of urgency to rappell. So perhaps in addition to the take away message that this could happen to any of us and so we should strive to avoid complacency, perhaps also we should be acutely aware of distractions, especially when rapping.

I know this is common occurrence, but I wonder the same thing. I think of rope ends every time I rappel. In hundreds (thousands?) of rappels, I think there was never even one when I wasn't actively concerned about the rope ends at least until I saw them myself.

I'll have to disagree in that i CAN imagine rapping off the end of the rope in several situations of user error or miscalculation. For that very reason, not only do i THINK about the ends of the rope, but i also TIE them every time... and i mean EVERY time.

i can't tell you how many times i've been rapping off a bottom/single pitch that seemed like it was half the rope length to the ground and still tied knots, regardless of how much i muttered to myself about the waste of time; just because one of these days when i'm on autopilot in a hurry, it'll be there even when something else goes to shit.

I'll have to disagree in that i CAN imagine rapping off the end of the rope in several situations of user error or miscalculation. For that very reason, not only do i THINK about the ends of the rope, but i also TIE them every time... and i mean EVERY time.

Personally I rarely tie rope ends together...

Earlier this year I had a TV size block

Like many things in climbing, you can do it right thousands of times, screw it up once, and you're hosed. The problem with uneven ends is most acute when the rope reaches the ground with lots to spare. Then you look down and see a pile of rope and mistake it for both strands.

I don't find it at all difficult to see how this can happen. Be careful out there, folks.

"I just don't see how this happens".

Like many things in climbing, you can do it right thousands of times, screw it up once, and you're hosed. The problem with uneven ends is most acute when the rope reaches the ground with lots to spare. Then you look down and see a pile of rope and mistake it for both strands.

I don't find it at all difficult to see how this can happen. Be careful out there, folks.

It is true that tying knots in the ends of the rope is the only absolutely fool-proof way to prevent going off the end(s).

But knots can create problems too. In the Gunks, trees, sometimes rather large ones, grow out from the cliff, and sometimes thrown ropes go through the trees. They are usually not too difficult to pull through the tree, but with a knot in the end of the rope, a single Y-shaped branch can effectively capture the rope.

There you are, hanging on rappel, with the rope going back up above you, or straight horizontally out behind you, into a tree, and you can't pull it out. Major epic potential, which you certainly wouldn't want to deal with with an incoming T-storm.

The tree problem can be avoided by keeping the ropes with you (of course, then you can't see whether they reach the next stance). But this too can be very slow if the flaked rope you are carrying tangles---something that happens quite a bit in my experience.

As for speeding up in bad conditions, I've found this to usually be a mistake. You have to be disciplined, methodical, and above all efficient, but rushing will frequently get you into more trouble and in many cases is only slightly faster.

Something I think we don't do nearly enough is to lower the first person down when the conditions are trying. No ropes to tangle and hang up, no possibility of going off the ends even in rope-stretchers, the ability to climb up and/or sideways if needed, all with total security. This may not be a good idea if communication is going to be very difficult, but otherwise I think it makes a lot of sense.

This could make spotting an end very difficult until you're right on top of it.

But knots can create problems too. In the Gunks, trees, sometimes rather large ones, grow out from the cliff, and sometimes thrown ropes go through the trees. They are usually not too difficult to pull through the tree, but with a knot in the end of the rope, a single Y-shaped branch can effectively capture the rope.

Something I think we don't do nearly enough is to lower the first person down when the conditions are trying. No ropes to tangle and hang up, no possibility of going off the ends even in rope-stretchers, the ability to climb up and/or sideways if needed, all with total security. This may not be a good idea if communication is going to be very difficult, but otherwise I think it makes a lot of sense.

anyone other than me tie a stopper knot in the ends of their rope before they rap?

I do......sometimes.

I was in a situation on a huge slab during very high winds that prevented us from tossing the rope without extreme risk to rope capture anywhere but where we needed it.

We stuck to our guns though and tied the ends together. Then we lowered as much line as we felt safe. One climber would lower off and the other would hold the end of the rope and pay out more as the person on rappel needed it. Once the the person on rap reached the midpoint of the line the person above would drop the tied end down. The end was tied around the rope so it just slid right dow to the person on rappel and stayed there until the person on rappel slipped it over their heads.

It was a simple but effective way of rappel in bad circumstances and it kept the rope manageable at all times.

We adapted the habit of taking the knot over our heads clipping a carabiner to it and then clipping the carabiner to our harness. Rarely did we ever need to unclip the carabiner and it kept rope management pretty .... welll .... manageable.

As the woman who went 'plunk' I thought I'd clear a thing or two up:

First: rope. It was bipattern, and a well-used rope of my partner's. She had used it for year(s), and we'd just rapped off of Middle Earth earlier in the day. The rope was not the problem. Somehow it got uneven, but the rope itself is and was fine.

Second: rain. Indeed, we knew some rain was moving in, but it was warm out and we were one pitch off the deck - not worried at all about getting a bit wet, and not in any sense of hurry. The rain was not the problem.

So what was the problem? 100% pilot error -- me. I did not make sure the rope end was down. No matter how many hundreds of times I've checked before, the ends weren't down this time, and I fell.

The injuries: burst fracture of L1, a pleural effusion, and an open fracture of the calcaneous. A bunch of titanium later, I'll be fine.

I feel particularly qualified to respond to the I just don't see how this happens as a neuroscientist. The answer is very simple, although as the attitudes/responses towards them demonstrate, it is also hard to accept:

Humans are fallible, and our attention is imperfect.

There are thousands of experiments and papers and such, as well as accidents on all kinds of scales, to establish this fact. No one is exempt, as appealing as it is to think you might be. You're human. It's just a matter of probability of occurrence, and the penalty if you get 'caught'. Just as if you were driving on the highway - you will make mistakes; it's just a matter of whether you pay a big price, or not.

Human fallibility is why we tie knots in the ends of ropes, thought that isn't always the answer. It's why the GriGri exists, though that sometimes causes problems of its own. Et cetera.

There's no substitute for vigilant attention, but we also have to accept that even vigilance itself is not absolute.

thanx for the post! and get well soon!