Basically it's just more fun IMO. Lots of people have covered things you're able to do more easily when leashless, but what it boils down to is the freedom it gives you.

It's not for everyone I'm sure, but it's worth playing with and seeing if it's for you.

True - it's just that I'm not sure the BD Black Prophet's are really a 'leashless' tool by shape, etc.

Yes that's what I thought - that the Prophet's weren't of the new leashless design, etc.

... Leashless really comes into it's own on extremely steep funky ice and mixed climbing, where lots of delicate crossing and switching is required. if all you're doing is running up the standard grade 3 and 4 flows, I would see no reason to switch to a leashless tool.

After not ice climbing in several years, I tried leashless for the first time last year. I'll never go back. Try it.

I'd love to but don't think my current Black Diamond Prophets are 'conducive' of going leashless d/t their handle configuration....

I am looking at perhaps add a Petzl Quark or Charlet this winter to my arsenal. Any suggestions which might be a better choice? I'd like to stay in the less than $200 range if I can...

$200 per tool.

I got both Prophet's lightly used for $160 - so I was happy!

I bought the Grivel X Monsters for $100 per tool here. I think it's a pretty good deal. http://www.mec.ca/..._id=2534374302691849

I had looked at them online and wondered how they were/are!

"....ainful to match on. This can be solved by sticking on the rubber "snake" grips they come with or applying your own tape/padding to the shaft.

Match on? I don't understand...

????

haha, I guess you really haven't climbed leashless before. There is a whole world of possibilities.

The idea is that you can match hands on a single tool, just like you can match hands on a single hold. This is great for traversing or most any other time where having both tools in front of you interferes with the climbing. Before I got the strike and fang for my vipers, I would pop in and out of the leashes constantly if I had to traverse. So much easier now that they're leashless.

Aren't climbers concerned with dropping 1 of their tools during a climb especially if they only are carrying 2 and not a back up 3rd tho?

True....I have done several multi pitch climbs that would have been a bad scene had I dropped one of my tools in error, or got knocked off the ice while belaying th 2nd up, etc.

I know from having done some ADK climbs here in NY that one's arms would turn to jelly after some hard vertical, difficult ice. It was always common belief back then that wrist loops helped take some of the 'strain' off the arms, etc - and that in a bind - one could pound one into the ice and hang from it via a runner, etc if pumped....etc.

This is actually easier now if you climb leashless with tethers--you're already clipped in, no runner required.

True....I have done several multi pitch climbs that would have been a bad scene had I dropped one of my tools in error, or got knocked off the ice while belaying th 2nd up, etc.

I know from having done some ADK climbs here in NY that one's arms would turn to jelly after some hard vertical, difficult ice. It was always common belief back then that wrist loops helped take some of the 'strain' off the arms...

Just because you're leashless doesn't mean you can't carry a third tool where it's appropriate, or use tethers, or have leashes ready to clip in.


This is gonna sound funny, but the pump ain't what it used to be!

Compared with the older straight shafted tools, modern ice tools put your arm/wrist in a more natural and efficient angle. Their grips and finger rests take less effort to hold securely. The overall curve in the shaft makes reaching over bulges a breeze (a hard/awkward thing with straight tools). Painful finger bashing is also mostly a thing of the past (you may still occasionally bash your finger on an odd protrusion of ice, but not like the old days). The tiring and awkward process of getting your hand into and out of the old style leashes is gone. Modern ice screws go in so much easier than the old designs that there is no comparison. All these benefits add up, and the result is that you don't flame out quickly like in the old days.

I think BD Vipers may be a very good choice for you. You should at least feel them, and demo climb on them if you can. They are a great all around ice tool, and not as specialized as tools designed specifically for mixed climbing. That said, my Vipers do just fine on mixed terrain. The Viper climbs great with or without leashes.

They have one of the best leash systems on the market (not perfect, but one of the very best -- no one makes a perfect leash). Starting out you can use the leashes, since that is what you are/were comfortable with. When you want to try leashless, all you have to do is unclip your leashes. You can leave them on your wrist, just clip the attachment point back to the wrist strap so it doesn't flop around. If you get tired or freaked, just clip the leash back to the tool.

My guess is that pretty soon you'll be comfortable enough to leave the ground without the leashes. However that shouldn't necessarily be your goal. There is nothing wrong with using leashes.

-------------------

If you do go with Vipers, here's what I've learned about tuning them.

Go with two hammers, that is pretty standard these days. I have the adze attachment, but it has never been used. One of my tools has the larger hammer attachment, which is useful for driving pins, plus it gives me two sizes of hammers to jam into cracks as "chocks" when climbing on mixed terrain.

Wrap your choice of grip tape on the upper grip position (above the rubber grip).

The leash attachment point (part of the assembly that attaches to the shaft) has a tendency to smack the shaft when the tool hits the ice. This is especially true when the leash is not attached. This makes a noise that annoys me, and I think it subtly interferes with hearing/feeling how good the placement is. This is easily remedied by wrapping the grip tape high enough that you tape down the little webbing flap that is underneath the leash attachment point. Don't tape down the whole leash attachment assembly, just the little webbing flap that is underneath the leash attachment.

Make sure your leash length adjustment isn't too short. If it's too short it can affect your swing.

Adjust your leash length so that you can still easily grab the top of the tool, for daggering.

Keep the leashes around your wrist loose enough so that the leash can rotate around your wrist. This is helpful when grabbing the top of the tool for daggering.

I like to de-tune the first few teeth of the picks. That makes the picks easier to remove from the ice. Just file away a bit of the edge of the tooth that grabs the ice until you get the desired effect. I pretty well round over the first three teeth. The pick is still very secure in the ice, but it is much easier to remove.

Michael, this tape is very grippy, and won't ice up on you.

http://www.duluthtrading.com/...reme-tape-96825.aspx

It only sticks to itself, so when it comes time to change it out there is no mess to clean up. I wrap from the bottom and go to the top, overlapping half the width of the tape on each wrap. I put some red electrical tape around the end of the wrap, to make sure it doesn't come loose (red tape is what I mark all my gear with).

Before you run off and spend your money on Petzls, take a look around.
Petzls, in my opinion are heavy, clumsy, and require an exaggerated swing to use.
Though they do look good strapped to your pack.
Stay away from their screws to, as they are hard to finish off, start nice, then grind to a halt.
I think their crampons are very well designed, and their advice given on just about every piece of gear they sell is excellent.

Actually it is more a question of the balance rather than the curve. Nothing swings like Nomics with the pick weights attached. As for the Fusions, they are excellent mixed/drytooling tools, but the shaft and grip is too heavy, so the balance is very low on the tool making them shit for ice.