Like many others I starting climbing at a gym and then moved outdoors into the outdoors. Since the transition two years ago I have not taken a lead fall. I am a rookie who is starting to transition to trad climbing and I am wondering if me not falling has caused me to not push myself. while placing pro I get nervous once I get above the pro. but I constantly stay on routes I know I can handle. Will this come back to bite me in the butt?

(see: Arno Ilgner and the Rock Warrior's Way).

I haven't lead yet. I'm pretty nervous about taking a fall on gear (not a lot of sport routes here in NJ). But, I suppose before I even try a lead climb I ought to set up a fall on gear just so I'm not freaking out at what to expect.

I haven't lead yet. I'm pretty nervous about taking a fall on gear (not a lot of sport routes here in NJ). But, I suppose before I even try a lead climb I ought to set up a fall on gear just so I'm not freaking out at what to expect.

I would suggest try taking lead falls in the gym. You do not want to submit your gear to unnecessary wearing.

I would never try lead falls on gear. I place my pieces and pry that I won't have to test them. The few times that I've fallen in gear they have hold, and I'm thankful for that, but I won't push my luck just to see if they hold.

Good point.

Like many others I starting climbing at a gym and then moved outdoors into the outdoors. Since the transition two years ago I have not taken a lead fall. I am a rookie who is starting to transition to trad climbing and I am wondering if me not falling has caused me to not push myself. while placing pro I get nervous once I get above the pro. but I constantly stay on routes I know I can handle. Will this come back to bite me in the butt?

. while placing pro I get nervous once I get above the pro. but I constantly stay on routes I know I can handle. Will this come back to bite me in the butt?

Good point. It's not something to play around with.

I do place gear for TR anchors. Having 4-5 cams/nuts above is a lot easier on the mind than a peice here and there below my feet.

More of a mental strain with regards to trusting that one peice below to catch a fall and wanting to climb higher.

If youre not falling, youre not climbing hard enough.

You've never even led a climb. What the hell makes you think you're qualified to express an opinion on this issue?

You know how sometimes people on the internet say "STFU, n00b"?  Well, they mean you.

Jay

You've never even led a climb. What the hell makes you think you're qualified to express an opinion on this issue?

You know how sometimes people on the internet say "STFU, n00b"?  Well, they mean you.

Jay

Bombers aside problem is, how do you know what a good placement is?. I have been shown ''good'' placements from many people, yet when i ask them about their trad falls.. zero. It is hard to gain confidence in questionable placements shown by people who have never fell on them.

Personally im like you, never fell in trad and tbh don't realy plan on it. I will only consider falls on a project where i know the placements are good (as in i have safe tested them). Onsight wise.. no fucking way.. im not that confident.

Jay, he wasn't giving advice. Sometimes a good 'ol STFU is warranted. Not in this case.

Josh

With time you'll get a feeling for what qualifies as a good placement. There is something to be said for clean aid climbing, if it won't hold bodyweight, it certainly won't hold a fall. You just get a feel over time of when a chock is fully seated in a crack vs. hung up on a single crystal. With cams, you yearn what type of placements are solid, and which lead to the cam walking and some of the cams loosing contact with the rock.

Panties wound a bit tight?

I didn't say feeling, I said feel. Just as a craftsman is able to work by feel and sense, so to the experienced climber has a feel for when a placement is good, or not.

With time you'll get a feeling for what qualifies as a good placement. There is something to be said for clean aid climbing, if it won't hold bodyweight, it certainly won't hold a fall. You just get a feel over time of when a chock is fully seated in a crack vs. hung up on a single crystal. With cams, you yearn what type of placements are solid, and which lead to the cam walking and some of the cams loosing contact with the rock.

There is also much value in cleaning routes that have been lead by somebody who knows how to make good placements, and following routes by people who don't. You get to compare and contrast the placements. And sometimes the leader that knows how to make good placements will occasionaly make a bad one or two, because there are no options and a purely psychological placement near a crux or shortly before a better placement can be made has a value to the leader.

Bombers aside problem is, how do you know what a good placement is?.[...}. It is hard to gain confidence in questionable placements shown by people who have never fell on them.

[..]Onsight wise.. no fucking way.. im not that confident.

If you're not flying, you're not trying.

Which may be fine for you, but, if you want to progress through the grades, you're going to hit a serious wall. For me it was around 5.10+. And you won't be able to break through until you get comfortable taking the whip.

Getting comfortable doesn't mean being stupid. It's about taking ownership of the consequences. Some falls are safe, others dangerous. You can read about it a book and make a good guess, but you'll never know until you log some air and ingrain the experience (though you better have guessed right).

Take some backed up practice falls to test your falling technique (see: Arno Ilgner and the Rock Warrior's Way). Identify harder climbs with great gear and clean falls, and commit. Sport climbing helps too.

Take it in small, manageable steps. Good luck.

Just quoting because there's a couple good points and some reference to rock warrior's way. Another book with perspective would be The Rage: Reflections on Risk by Steve DeMaio.
There are references to falling in the book, but a point noted a number of times is when (and if my copy wasn't on loan I'd quote it properly) Steve makes note of "This is not a good place to fall".

There is a lot to learn in the leading game. Some of that comes from mileage and skills learned, some of the more important points come from developing both risk management skills and from mountain maturity.

In your opinion. I think it is always worth calling out ignorant foolishness.

Jay

I anchor on gear all the time. And I've cleaned leads before. I know what a good placement is. My statement regarding "a mental strain with regards to trusting that one peice below to catch a fall and wanting to climb higher" is drawn from my own experiences with climbing. That's not ignorance. That's my judgement!

When you cross a busy street, how do you determine when you should cross? You could trip, fall flat on your face and get run over. A drunk driver could appear and take you down. Etc. It's a calculated risk.

Same with climbing. No one takes the next move if they think the chances are high that they'll fail. You know you can mitigate the risk because of all of your hard work and skill and you take it. Success is a validation of the work and skill.

Their is the problem for me, and im sure many more ;p. At what point do you define a climb worth the risk of decking out.. hitting a ledge etc, with the very real possibility of being crippled or killed. Do we factor the risk grade wise?.. as in E1 is not worth it.. but E10 is?. Is the risk worth while if it gives you reccognition?. Is the risk worth while if it makes you feel like a man?. Is the risk worth while if you can never play football with your son again?.

They are very real questions for me, and every time i look up the line of a route that has this cripple/death potential i can not justify it. How do you people justify it?.

Their is the problem for me, and im sure many more ;p. At what point do you define a climb worth the risk of decking out.. hitting a ledge etc, with the very real possibility of being crippled or killed. Do we factor the risk grade wise?.. as in E1 is not worth it.. but E10 is?. Is the risk worth while if it gives you reccognition?. Is the risk worth while if it makes you feel like a man?. Is the risk worth while if you can never play football with your son again?.

They are very real questions for me, and every time i look up the line of a route that has this cripple/death potential i can not justify it. How do you people justify it?.

You typically do not cross a road because your ego told you too. And, climbing a wall, for most of us.. is not a requirement to feed our family. So, don't cross the road? live in a jungle?. That is a true risk assessment.. Clealry their are better survival odds living in a modern society, or else why do so many do it.

Their is the problem for me, and im sure many more ;p. At what point do you define a climb worth the risk of decking out.. hitting a ledge etc, with the very real possibility of being crippled or killed.

You typically do not cross a road because your ego told you too. And, climbing a wall, for most of us.. is not a requirement to feed our family. So, don't cross the road? live in a jungle?. That is a true risk assessment.. Clealry their are better survival odds living in a modern society, or else why do so many do it.

Although I cannot say that it makes me 'feel like a man', I can tell you that I prefer clean falls on harder or overhanging routes rather than the dicey falls that come with the ledgey-dirty-easier-grade territory. There are often less obstacles in the way on the harder climbs.

Like many others I starting climbing at a gym and then moved outdoors into the outdoors. Since the transition two years ago I have not taken a lead fall. I am a rookie who is starting to transition to trad climbing and I am wondering if me not falling has caused me to not push myself. while placing pro I get nervous once I get above the pro. but I constantly stay on routes I know I can handle. Will this come back to bite me in the butt?