They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.html

Cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Lord knows, you'll never catch me on it again.

This really belongs in A & I, along with most of your other posts. Did you not post it in there just so that you could call the climbers 'ignorant'? Do you know anything about Cannon or the general history / conditions / harsh weather of the area?

Hmm... I didn't know that the rap stations had been removed.

Cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Lord knows, you'll never catch me on it again.

This really belongs in A & I, along with most of your other posts. Did you not post it in there just so that you could call the climbers 'ignorant'? Do you know anything about Cannon or the general history / conditions / harsh weather of the area?

if a climber leaves his headlamp and a jacket behind to go for a day worth of climbing in any wilderness setting, I will name them ignorant cause too many of them been rescued for stupid thing

There were rap stations on Moby Grape? I can't think of any after the triangle roof (end of pitch 2 or 3). Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of places to bail from, you'll just be leaving some gear behind.

Anyways, Moby Grape is awesome. The best multi-pitch 5.8 I've ever done. God, I love that climb. Ignore what wonderwoman says, the cliff is amazing and there's nothing to be....

OH SHIT!!!! ROCK ROCK ROCK !!!!!

*whew* ... that was close.... what was I saying?

There were rap stations on Moby Grape? I can't think of any after the triangle roof (end of pitch 2 or 3). Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of places to bail from, you'll just be leaving some gear behind.

Anyways, Moby Grape is awesome. The best multi-pitch 5.8 I've ever done. God, I love that climb. Ignore what wonderwoman says, the cliff is amazing and there's nothing to be....

OH SHIT!!!! ROCK ROCK ROCK !!!!!

*whew* ... that was close.... what was I saying?

They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.html

Ignorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details.

The actual climbing on Moby is pretty casual, but when you combine it with the weather, loose rock, and route finding difficulties, you can quickly get over your head. Let's just hope they learned some things from this epic.

Josh

Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them.

I mean, calling rescue team cause you are cold or you forgot about your plan B is just pure excuse and i do not see why these climbers do not get it in their head that this is not a gym climbing. you go out there to climb, you should be prepped to spend the night out there cause you never know what nature may bring.

Ignorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details.

I mean, calling rescue team cause you are cold or you forgot about your plan B is just pure excuse and i do not see why these climbers do not get it in their head that this is not a gym climbing. you go out there to climb, you should be prepped to spend the night out there cause you never know what nature may bring.

As one post mentioned above, watch for falling rock.

Duet is also special and have some death long time ago (a block felt on the leg and the climber died from an open fracture). a

majid_sabet really who cares?????????? Why didnt you help them?????

Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck.

me helping two Jr 18 years old climbing n00bs ?

Are you kidding me ?

I'll them freeze their balls off and when they are ready to take the AED pad to their heart, that's when I go and get them out

the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible

Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck.

i have never met anyone in emergency services ... or any outdoor guides with that attitude ...



people run up the chief here all the time with nothing more than some water and a few gummy bears ... even now youre unlikely to bring anything more than some water, snacks, a jacket,
matches, headlamp and a survival bag/blanket ... and a cell phone

the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible

Also, what exactly is a "stuck" rope in this particular case. What did they get it stuck in/on? That upper section is brief slabs intertwined with blocky sections. There aren't a whole ton of cracks and there aren't trees.

you sure do you like your gummy bear story... 2 threads in 2 totally different forums and topics...

Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing. These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure. One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help.

To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it.

If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber.

Josh

He sure does like that story.

So much that bearbutter has brought up his gummybears story over at backpackinglight.com where he's been trying his hardest his to become the Majid of backpacking SAR.

IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves

ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways

then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli

the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea

bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped

I've climbed on Canon, the talus field, on your first trip will slow you down, the route finding could slow you down too I guess. To call this a "Wilderness Wall" seems a bit of a stretch for me. The parking area is near the base of the talus field, and as the article mentioned, the Search an Rescue guys used a chairlift to access the top.

I cannot say this strongly enough - I think you are dead wrong, and giving bad and dangerous advice.

Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need.

If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice.

The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead.

There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts.

As for the broader question, I'm not making any judgment of whether the party in question made the right call to go do this route with the gear and the experience they had. Without knowing them, and given the minimal detail in the articles, I don't think any of us has enough info to pass judment.

GO

...and you're off route and disoriented and it's dark...

Since they obviously were not willing to spend the night on the wall, I'd rather they acknowledged their situation and called for help, instead of "saving" themselves in to an early grave. Rapping in to unknown territory on Canon after dark is an easy way for an inexperienced climber to get dead.

There's always moonlight!
Its is a natural adaptation.

Besides blind climbers climb and rap in perpetual darkness very decently.

My point is simply that all the fancy gear n the world is no substute for skills

One can bring everything one needs and still be reasonably light.. I can personally fit a synthetic puffy, a down puffy, a rain jacket, a survival bag, headlamp, snacks, water, aid kit, and more in a small bullet pack ... Etc ...

If you cant do a rock climb in a non remote location without dragging up a shietload of gear (not just pro an ropes) then my suggestion would be to go on something more suitable ... You dont want to be one of those parties here aiding up every crux an causing traffic jams ... Or being recued because yr too slow and got benighted

I always wonder about these people bringing big 40L+ packs up what are basically roadside rock multipitch routes ....

Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing.

These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure.

One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help.

To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it.

If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber.

Josh

IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves

ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways

then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli

the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea

bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped

I cannot say this strongly enough - I think you are dead wrong, and giving bad and dangerous advice.

Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need.

If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice.

If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice.

The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead.

There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts.

Doesn't seem so light to me. Especially if everyone in the party has that packing list. First Aid Kit, I always wonder how useful the First Aid kits I see are. In most cases, a roll of Athletic tape and a shirt would be better suited.

Do you bring this packing list on every single multi-pitch route you do?
If not, which ones? How many time in the last year have you climb a route 5 pitches or longer with everyone in your party carrying this packing list up the route?

Face blurred to protect the identity of PAS user.

As for "5.8 we can do that" is that different from "5.10 I can do that," or "5.11 I can do that," and then find out you can't and need rescuing?

Climbers, regardless of their ability should do what ever they can to accurately estimate their ability and what gear they need.

While Moby Grape is rated harder, I think it has easier route finding, better protection, and easier on many other fronts.

Extra ropes mean extra rope management skills, extra gear means slower climbing. The more "just in case something happens" gear you bring up, the more likely you are to use it.

Not sure how having more gear improves your skill level. Sometime, more is just that, more. More for the sake of more is called excess.

Maybe these guys had practice on several routes already. For all you know they were doing two or three ground to summit 5.8 routes a day at Cathedral Ledges and decided to do something on Canon. Again, this articles provides nothing about their back-ground.

As for the broader question, I'm not making any judgment of whether the party in question made the right call to go do this route with the gear and the experience they had. Without knowing them, and given the minimal detail in the articles, I don't think any of us has enough info to pass judment.

My point is simply that all the fancy gear n the world is no substute for skills

Note i said REASONABLY fast and light in my original post

One can bring everything one needs and still be reasonably light.. I can personally fit a synthetic puffy, a down puffy, a rain jacket, a survival bag, headlamp, snacks, water, aid kit, and more in a small bullet pack ... Etc ...

If you cant do a rock climb in a non remote location without dragging up a shietload of gear (not just pro an ropes) then my suggestion would be to go on something more suitable ... You dont want to be one of those parties here aiding up every crux an causing traffic jams ... Or being recued because yr too slow and got benighted

I always wonder about these people bringing big 40L+ packs up what are basically roadside rock multipitch routes ....

a light synth puffy jacket (13 oz)
a headsheets survival blanket (3 oz)
headlamp (3 oz)
1L of water for myself (partner had 1L as well)
first aid kit (home made, basically climbing tape, gauzes, alcoholic hand cleaner that doubles as firestarter and TP that can be used as same)
matches
whistle
gummy bears
cell phone
and likely a few other things i cant remember

. . . . Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates. . . . .

also seems like one of those guys who likes walking around with their ATC hitting them in the junk all day.

Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates. ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be. I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day. Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe! Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas. Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL!

Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn.

Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates.

ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be.

I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day.

Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe!

Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas.

Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL!

Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn.

Cannon is in part of NH that has some of the worst weather in the US. at 4100' it is a pretty high elevation for the area and the night time temps are around freezing and many of the taller mountains have snow on them already

looked up Franconia's weather that day.. 50F day time 34 night time at around 3000' of elevation lower.

Yes they had an epic fail. but calling for rescue i think was a good idea. they were not prepared to spend the night on Cannon

Without knowing more details it really is hard to figure out how badly they screwed up or what they should have done.

On one hand the climb is one of the most popular on the cliff and the weather comes in over the back, so you often don't get much warning if a local storm hits.

Then again on the other, the climb has been done car to car in less than an hour by more than a few hardmen*...









* one of which, I'm definitely not

Guangzhou:

LOL!

Ok,...Toprope walls offers people to place gear and do it safely until they are competant on good gear placement to get on the sharp end. "Weather reports": Weather blows in man and you should be ready. I can fit an emergency blanket, gloves, portaparka and hat in a watterbottle size stuff sack. I do check weather reports....but in many places weather blows in regardless! Ever climb at Lumpy ridge? Snows in July ...out of the blue. Great thing about CO is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes!

Reagardless of nit picking. The point remains, they were not ready and they were in above their heads.

I would have been pissed if I was behind them and most certainly would not have needed a rescue.

As far as you "field testing shiny gear" woopedy doo!
Most people know what I was getting at here. lol.

As far as climbing being "safe" with a rope and rack! Duh...yeah...safer...but its still not "safe". If you think alpine climbing is safe, your going to get hurt or need a rescue.

Suffering is part of big wall and alpine cliimbing....if you don't know this, you shouldn't be there!


Cheers Mate

Ok..all i was saying is that they were justified in calling for help once it got dark and they could not ascend or descend themselves.

Glad you took well


I don't know what caused them to need rescuing, so I can't comment on what happened.

Me too


I spent a month climbing on Lumpy Ridge and some other long Alpine rock in the area. Yeah, weather comes in, I agree, but I do what I can to avoid it.On Lumpy, the weather while I was there was mostly coming in in the afternoon, so I woke early, moved fast, and traveled as light as I could.

I do avoid Mountaineering, but I love Alpine rock, I don't suffer much when I do it. I just go out and enjoy myself. On Alpine rock routes, I do pack differently, that's for sure.

Big Walls, I haven't done many, less than 30 of them. While I'll agree they are hard work, I don't see it as suffering. Do I get tired and worn out, yes. I sleep well at night too. Often I stink.

Do I suffer, not really. If I felt I suffered on Big Walls, I would avoid them, something I don't do.

Actually, I'm working on a new Big Wall project this year. My goal, to establish a new big Wall safely. (No Search and Rescue team here in Indonesia.) Actually, I sort of miss knowing I can call Yosar before starting up on many of the multi-pitch I've done here. Especially on Big Walls where my partner and I are the only people around.

During my project, it will be hot and humid, I'll be tired, but I definitely won't be suffering. I avoid putting myself in situations where I know I'll suffer.

My point is that new leaders should dial back their objectives, and dial up their safety net, relative to what they think they can maybe do.

GO

This is it in a nutshell.


I'm glad that they didn't get hurt, but we don't know if spending the night out would have been lethal for them. I do believe an unplanned night out on the wall would make their climbing decisions more humble in the future.

Either way, unnecessary climbing deaths or unnecessary climbing rescues strain relations with the nonclimbing community.

i hate to say it but no death is necessary in climbing

i hate to say it but no death is necessary in climbing

Yep...No mountaineering for me either! I like sun and warm rock. Alpine is fun but I tend to "suffer" because I hate the cold...thus I guess it's not suffering for everyone. I'm nt a pro.. so for big walls there would be some expected suffering for me on a big wall. But it would be the good suffering!

Anyway, Good luck with your new route, it does not appear you are somone who would need a rescue.

Cheers

Small correction in the name of accuracy - though lord know that trying to maintain accuracy here would take an army of typing monkeys. The route that accident happened on was Sam's Swan Song (not Duet) and the victim was a Dartmouth student - Surgeon General Koop's son. This was back in the days before cams or nuts - pitons were the standard and he pried off a loose block while nailing it.

It is sam sang song. We also had an accident on that route, less severe. A loose block felt on the hand of the leader. He had enought reflex to redirect the rock so we didn't receive it on the belay. With two injure climber, the rap would have been harder. Base took the direction of the operation. It was easier to rap than to walk off. Perfect self rescue.

Sam's has fallen off most peoples' radar these days. Besides the Koop fatality in the late 60's there was a double fatality in ~1973. Lots of loose rock (duh - it's cannon) but there were several pitches of quite nice climbing.

Always wanted to do Sam's. Is it significantly looser than other, more popular route (Lakeview, Consolation Prize)?

Always wanted to do Sam's. Is it significantly looser than other, more popular route (Lakeview, Consolation Prize)?

I climbed the four first pitch twice and bail...one because a thunderstorm and the other an accident.

I definitely want to go to the top. Call me next spring or a warm day in week end this fall...